I need to pick the minds of the gun experts here.

What 1911 would you suggest for $1500 or so or under. No custom jobs just a good solid gun.

A stainless Sprg. Loaded is a great buy and it leaves you some $ to have a good smith do a reliability job on it.

Perry

+1 on the Springfield Loaded. I've had mine for over ten years and can't remember it ever jamming. I've replaced the recoil spring and shock buff a few times otherwise it's never had a thing done to it.

Wendell:

Are you going to use it for self-defense type situations/carry or is it going to be mostly for plinking/target shooting. Three current names to check out would be Kimber, STI, and Springfield.

If you're going to mostly be using it for plinking/target work, I'd suggest you consider a Colt Gold Cup, 70 series, or even an 80 series (which can be found easily in Stainless if that is on your want list), they can easily be found in top condition for under a $1000 and will do everything you want, with little or no work (trigger). If you're going to use them much with heavier self defense type rounds, I'd go to a stronger recoil spring.

Wendell, I agree with Gato on the Kimber. I have two, a Kimber Classic Target in 45 ACP which is a reasonable entry level Bullseye gun (after the trigger is worked on), and a Kimber Pro Carry (II?) in 38Super. The latter is SS and is an excellent carry gun. I have no experience with STI. The Kimber Target is not in the same league as a Gold Cup with Kart barrel etc. which is my real Bullseye gun!
Peter.

Perry & Rick, thanks I will look at the "Loaded"

quote:

Are you going to use it for self-defense type situations/carry or is it going to be mostly for plinking/target shooting. Three current names to check out would be Kimber, STI, and Springfield.

Gato, Thanks for the advice,

Needs to be reasonably accurate, carry and plinking gun. Not going to get too hung up on accuracy provided it is within the norm. Need good strong reliable 1911.

Peter, I was leaning toward the Kimber. It is still at the top of the list. Thanks for your advice.

Gee, for that price and those requirements, you have dozens of options.

As mentioned above, you could snag a Colt re-issue Series 70 for 8 or 900 and add modern sights and a basic reliability tune up and have a great "lifetime" pistol that will likely increase in value as well.

Or

You can pickup on of the nicer, modern iterations like a Kimber Custom II, Warrior, or a Doublestar Tactical and still have enough for a sack full of Wilson mags and a case of Winchester FMJ.

Several years ago I bought a parkerized Springfield for $400 and had a few upgrades done to it, and it is still the best of the three 1911s I own. I would add that parkerizing seems to be underrated, the finish on mine is holding up better than my blued pistols.

Try a Dan Wesson VBOB or full size. Very nice guns for $1500

I did not mention that the Kimbers I talked about should be well under $1000 (used).
Peter.

Thanks for the suggestions. Strongly leaning toward one of the Kimbers.

Wendell,

For not a whole not more look at the Les Baer Thunder Ranch Special. It's a whole lot of gun for the money. P.M. me for details.

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:
I need to pick the minds of the gun experts here.

What 1911 would you suggest for $1500 or so or under. No custom jobs just a good solid gun.

http://www.stiguns.com/


Custom built gun at production prices.

Number one gun used by USPSA/IPSC shooters.



http://www.stiguns.com/guns/Trojan5.0/Trojan50.php

Top line quality. Mid-line price. Whether you'll own only one gun or dozens, this one belongs in your collection. This is a truly optimum blend of John Browning's 1911 design and today's modern technology.

Crafted with classic 1911 design, the STI International Trojan is a traditional 1911 built to modern high-end standards for an exceptional competition, duty, and self-defense pistol. And with Bomar style adjustable sights, it is ready to compete in IPSC, USPSA, IDPA, or SSSA right out of the box.

The Trojan is built on an STI 1911 Government frame with a STIppled front strap, checkered mainspring housing, and undercut trigger guard. The controls are STI International’s single sided thumb safety and knuckle relief high-rise beavertail grip safety. The slide features traditional 1911 styling with STI front and rear cocking serrations and oversized ejection port. The barrel is 5.0" ramped and supported with a match grade fitted bushing. This exceptional firearm comes standard with an STI commander hammer, patented STI trigger system, STI S-7 sear, and titanium strut for smooth, reliable function.

The Trojan has a matte blued finish. All of this combined with STI’s outstanding warranty gives you a pistol that will allow you to play with the "big dawgs" from any avocation or profession.

"This ain't your Daddy's 1911"

Available in 9x19, .38 Super, .40 S&W, .45 ACP

* Specifications
* Options
* Reviews
* Resources

Trojan 5.0 SPECIFICATIONS
MSRP $1,110.00
Caliber 9x19, .38 Super, .40 S&W, .45 ACP
Frame STI Standard Single Stack Steel Government Size, STIppled Front Strap
Grip STI Logo, Checkered, Cocobolo, Thin
Slide 5" Classic Flat Top
Slide Features STI Front & Rear Serrations
Trigger STI Long Curved
Barrel STI Fully Supported, Bushing Barrel
Safeties STI Blue Grip and Single Sided Thumb
Guide Rod STI One Piece Steel
Sights STI Front with STI Adjustable Rear
Overall Length 8.5"
Height 5.3"
Weight 36.0 oz.
Finish Flat Blue
Competition Approvals IPSC, USPSA, IDPA, & SSSA

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:
Thanks for the suggestions. Strongly leaning toward one of the Kimbers.

DON'T BUY A KIMBER

fficial&client=firefox-a" target="_blank">http://www.google.com/search?q...ial&client=firefox-a

Firing pin safeties typically fall into the Colt Series 80 pattern which are actuated by the trigger (Colt Series 80, Para Ordnance, Sig GSR) and the Swartz style safety which is actuated by the grip safety (Kimber, Smith & Wesson). Of all the firing pin safety mechanisms on the market, the original Colt Series 80 - in a Colt - is the most reliable of them all. The platforms utilizing the Swartz safety are a less than ideal choice across the board due to the inherent reliability problems of the design. The Swartz safety is extremely sensitive to the fit of the grip safety to the frame and the timing of the grip safety's trigger blocking arm. Tolerance issues can also lead to a Swartz safety that will time properly when the grip safety is depressed a certain way, and time differently when depressed a different way. This will typically be a product of loose fit of the grip safety to the frame tangs and/or loose fit of the thumb safety shaft through the grip safety. It is possible to have the grip safety timed such that the trigger will be able to release the sear well before the firing pin safety plunger has been moved far enough to clear the firing pin. Problems with improper timing of the Swartz safeties can lead to a situation where you get a "click" when you wanted a "bang." That's a serious problem. Unless department policy mandates a firing pin safety, I would choose a 1911 without one. It is possible to have a drop safe 1911 without the firing pin safety, and given the potential reliability problems with a poorly executed system, the perceived risk of drop safety is outweighed by the real risk of a failure to fire.

CHOOSING A DUTY 1911


fficial&client=firefox-a" target="_blank">KIMBER SCHWARTZ SAFETY FAILURE

SPRINGFIELD USES MIM PARTS IN THEIR TRP SERIES 1911'S


Join Date: Sep 2000
Posts: 25,454
Forged? Cast? MIM? Stamped?
There have been a lot of members asking about the various manufacturing methods of metals used for 1911 parts. A lot of the resulting replies have been biased or incorrect regarding the materials, so I'll try to describe the various types to the best of my ability.

FORGED: Forgings are made from bar stock which is almost universally round stock. The bar is heated in a furnace to a pecific temperature for the type metal. It is then removed and placed between two dies. In the drop forging process the upper die is weighted (can be several tons) and is literally dropped onto the bottom die forming the softened steel into the shape desired. There are usually 3 or more different dies and the bar is moved from a rough forging to the final die which is very close the exact shape of the part. A good hammer operator can usually forge the part (or strip of parts) with one blow per die and one for the cutoff. Sometimes the forging spec will call for multiple blows per die. Drop forgings get their strength by this hammering process, just like how the old blacksmiths did it. There are other forging "hammers" which use other means than dropping the upper die. The raw forging will need the flash cut off the edges (usually with a punch press) and the part will need to be machined to the exact shape. Small parts like 1911 hammers will have several parts in a strip and separated in the press. If necessary further hardening is done to the part after machining using any of several methods, from heat-quenching to cryogenic freezing.

CAST: Molten steel is poured into a mold that is the size and shape of the final part to be made. Once cooled the mold is broken away leaving the rough-cast part, which is then machined or given further hardening treatment as necessary. Cast parts are much cheaper to make than forged ones, but are somewhat less durable due to having a lower density and no grain structure. Investment casting is simply another method of casting parts. A wax duplicate of the part to be made is created, then encased in densely-packed sand. Molten metal is poured in, which displaces the wax and results in a part much closer in final shape to the finished part. This results in less final shaping or machining being required to produce the finished part.

MIM: Stands for Metal Injection Molded. This is a relatively new process of making small parts for less cost than machined, while making them denser than cast. There are four primary steps to the metal injection molding process (per www.phillipsplastics.com):

1. Feedstock Formulation – very fine metal powders are mixed with polymeric binders.
2. Molding – parts are molded in specially-equipped injection molding machines. These as-molded components are known as "green" parts.
3. Debinding – 90% of the binder material is removed from the green part. These parts are then referred to as "brown" parts.
4. Sintering – brown parts are sintered using controlled temperature and atmosphere profiles for final densities between 96-99% of theoretical.

In other words, the end product results in no more than a 1% variation in its final size. Done correctly the resulting part is nearly as dense as one made from forged steel, yet is much cheaper to make. Done incorrectly the process can leave small voids in the metal, creating a weak part.

STAMPED: Some metal parts are made from large pieces of flat steel, which are punched out using a die then pressed and formed using bending/forming dies. As with the other parts, heat treating or final shaping is done after the item has been stamped out. Normally the finished part needs no shaping or machining, only polishing to remove burrs caused by the stamping or forming die.

Early 1911 pistols up until the end of World War Two used forged steel parts exclusively, as the technology of that time often didn't result in acceptable cast or stamped parts. During World War Two stampings were used on an increasing scale to save time and materials, but the only 1911 part to become made from stampings was the trigger assembly. Heat-treating methods were still in their infancy, however. Most parts were only flame-hardened in critical wear areas. As a result early guns are more prone to cracking, stress failure, and peening damage than later ones. The quality of the steels and their alloy content wasn't as refined as it is today, either. Following WW2 the Austempering method of hardening metal parts was perfected, which hardens even large parts like slides and barrels correctly along their entire surface.

By the 1970's cast and stamped manufacturing methods were further phased in by Colt and other 1911 manufacturers as a means of reducing production costs. The 1911 has never been a cheap gun to produce, requiring many complex milling operations during the course of manufacture. A number of makers who had been offering investment cast replacement frames and slides soon began making complete pistols by the late 70's. Colt and other high-end manufacturers continued to use forged slides and frames, but the smaller internal parts were now often being made from cast or stamped steel. A few non-critical parts such as the mainspring housing and trigger pad were even made from moulded polymer to further reduce costs. In 1996 Kimber's 1911-type pistols were introduced, and they were the first to use MIM manufacturing for their small parts, resulting in a well-fitted 1911 that was still relatively inexpensive to make. Kimber still uses forged steel for their major parts such as the slide and frame. Colt also has continued to use forged major components, with a mixture of forged, cast, stamped, or MIM internal parts. Most other makers (such as Springfield Armory and Smith & Wesson) use mostly cast or MIM small parts depending on model, although they too use forged steel for the slides and frames. The higher-end custom makers (Wilson, Ed Brown, etc.) will normally use forged slides and frames with either cast, MIM, or forged steel small parts as the price point requires. Some pistols continue to be made using investment cast frames and slides, but this shouldn't automatically dissuade the buyer. Caspian Arms for example is known for their quality 1911 components, despite the fact that they now use castings almost exclusively. All of these methods have their place, and they can all result in a quality pistol as long as the various processes are done correctly. There is a common belief that anything other than forged steel is inferior. While that may be true with parts subjected to high stress levels such as barrels, with many 1911 parts the other methods are just as durable and result in a more affordable final product. For example a moulded polymer mainspring housing is every bit as durable under normal use as a steel one. It just doesn't look as nice in the eyes of many 1911 purists, hence the reason why many will replace such a part with one made of steel.

If you get a chance look at the Sig line up as well. I am carrying the Blackwater 1911 as my duty gun and it has been flawless in the performance department. It is also very accurate.

I started shooting 1911s in the military. They were just plain old standard issue guns. They were virtually indestructible, surprisingly accurate, robust and reliable. I was issued several different ones over a period of years. I fired an enormous amount of ammunition through them in that time. I carried them and fired them in just about every environment you can imagine.

I've also fired several civilian versions including ones made by Springfield, Kimber, and Colt. I have owned several different 1911s in .45 and .38 Super, including Spanish and Brazilian copies. I currently carry a Colt 1991 and own a stainless Safari Arms (Olympic Arms) gun that I purchased through a law enforcement agency on a deal too good to pass up.

I am not a fan of tricked out guns with extended safeties, hair triggers, whiz-bang improved parts, exceedingly tight fitting slides, and surfaces with ridiculous amounts of stippling, checkering or grooving. Serious competitors can, and do, benefit from such things but those "enhancements" come at a price. Those things may add to accuracy and speed but they ultimately reduce reliability and robustness. Occasionally my services are requested for a simple job where people are depending on me for their safety. So, I take my sidearm seriously and demand something that I know I can count on if I need it, plain and simple.

For the uses you described I suggest you buy a standard Colt. The current Series 70 or 1991 will be all the gun you need and I don't think you could do better.

I would not go with a Kimber. Look at Colt or Springfield, the loaded being a good choice. Go used if you need to, but stick to an all steel 5" from the above two companies and you can not go wrong.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:
Wendell:

Are you going to use it for self-defense type situations/carry or is it going to be mostly for plinking/target shooting. Three current names to check out would be Kimber, STI, and Springfield.

If you're going to mostly be using it for plinking/target work, I'd suggest you consider a Colt Gold Cup, 70 series, or even an 80 series (which can be found easily in Stainless if that is on your want list), they can easily be found in top condition for under a $1000 and will do everything you want, with little or no work (trigger). If you're going to use them much with heavier self defense type rounds, I'd go to a stronger recoil spring.

+1
Can't disagree with any of that.
Sometimes "target work" is very worthwhile for self-defense.
The gold-cups are very accurate. Some work may need to be done to take-off/change the sharp edges of sights and hammer.

Wendell,

As you know I just recently sold my Kimber and bought an Ed Brown. To be honest, I doubt I'll own another Kimber handgun. Being a first-time 1911 buyer, I bought into all the "hype" about Kimber being "awesome" guns. I believe in recent years the quality of their handguns has gone way down. I've heard more and more stories of poor quality Kimber 1911's in the last year than any other brand. I had one of the CDP II Compact (4") pistols and I was not overly impressed with the quality. It was not exceptionally accurate.....in fact I could run circles around it with a $400 Springfield XD.

I owned it for a little over a year and fired around 650 rounds thru the gun and continued to have an occasional jam. I tried different magazines, different ammunition, different lubricants.....but it still would jam once out of every 50-100 rounds. To be honest, I think it has more to do with Kimber's design. I don't believe 1911's were ever meant to be made in the sizes and designs that Kimber uses.....and I think the compact 1911's are more prone to mechanical problems than a full-size government model or a commander model. From now on, any 1911 I buy will be one of those two sizes.

Based on opinions from people I trust who have lots of experience.....for a 1911 under $1500 I would probably suggest looking at a Springfield of some flavor. Right behind that, I would suggest both Colt and STI. I hope this helps. I'm not an expert by any means.....but like I said, I doubt I will buy another Kimber handgun. I have a Kimber Pro Varmint rifle in .223 that is a tack-driver.....but that wasn't the case with my 1911.

Good luck in your research.

Commander sized barrel (4.25"), this makes a big difference in how "big" it is to carry and almost none in how shootable and controllable it is. Plus commander sized 1911's run, all the time. (the shorter barrels are hit or miss, IMO reliability is most important)

If you want, you can then go to an officer sized frame. It's basically one round shorter, which also makes it much easier to carry, but doesn't really seem to affect the hold (i have BIG hands and it makes no difference, very easy to shoot). It does take different magazines than a standard frame though.

My carry gun is a Sig RCS.
It's a commander slide on an officer frame with REALLY thin grips and all deburred with no sharp edges. About $1000, never had one FTF or FTE in 1000's of rounds thru Sig 1911's. Very pleased with them.

http://www.sigsauer.com/Produc...yid=25&productid=135

Wendell, you're probably on your third 1911 by now but here's my take:

Les Baer makes a great pistol for the money. I own a few (4" and 5" models) and like every one of them. Best value in the high-end production guns.

Wilson make a great pistol but it is going to be over your stated price range. One of these in a 4" model is my go-to carry gun.

Brown makes a great pistol but even the used ones start over your budget. I think I'd get a full custom before I bought another Brown.

Colt - I love the idea of a Colt but my one Colt purchase was a disappointment. I have a 70 series repro. It doesn't run that well and the trigger is horrible. I'm hanging onto it only as the basis for a future custom project.

Kimber - I've owned a few and have kept only one. The one keeper is a a Custom Shop Pro Model that really runs and is very accurate. I bought this pistol used and it's a winner, the newer Kimbers leave me cold.

Springfield makes a lot of gun for the money. I think the TRP is the single best value in 1911s. This is the 1911 I most recommend for someone's first 45. It'll make you fall in love with the platform and it'll still be in your collection when you have a half dozen 1911s. That said, plan on sending it back to the factory one time to get it running flawlessly but when you get it back you'll swear you have a high dollar custom.

quote:

Kimber - I've owned a few and have kept only one. The one keeper is a a Custom Shop Pro Model that really runs and is very accurate. I bought this pistol used and it's a winner, the newer Kimbers leave me cold.

on the Pro Model. I did have the chance to fire a Commander and a CDPII. I only ran about 100rds each through them but the functiona nd accuracy were fine. The CDPII pointed well and I was surprised how well it handled using full velocity hardball ammo.

Have you made a decision yet Wendell?????

If you aren't in a hurry Colt is jumping back in for 2011 with a lot of new models.

Wen del- I'm a man of few words but a great deal of experience. Step up and buy a Wilson combat or nighthawk oe Ed brown. I've had em all and carry a nighthawk talon ii right now. -Rob

I recently bought a Smith and Wesson SW1911PD. Only have 200 rounds through it but everything seems great so far. Good looking pistol too.

I carry a Series 80 Colt Commander. Had a Jarvis barrel and bushing added and an action job. I have two Commanders, the other an old nickel series 70 that's all tricked out. This thing works, occasionally jams on my lead handloads, but works 100% of the time with 230 grain Gold Dots.

Works for me.

A pre-series 2, full sized Kimber. "The first run of Kimbers before the swartz style safeties."

I have personally whitnessed the locking up of a Colt Delta Elite, when the swartz safety got bent between the slide and frame, and we have to beat the slide open with a 2x4, and remove the safety with a pair of piers. Not real good! So, it can happen.


The 1911s were designed to operate on the 5" platform. When you shorten up a 1911, things don't always work as planned. Magazines and recoil springs must be in perfect order. I sold several 4" guns because of this.

We see many of the very upper end guns mentioned above go thru the academy that will not run the whole course until they have about 5,000 rnds thru them, as they are built too tight for proper function.

Of all the 1911s that pass thru the handgun course, the older Kimbers have proven to run best.

Mine has little blueing left and about 60,000 rnds run thru it with very few hiccups. It will feed any ammo out there, as well as empty brass.

Carry a Colt 80 series. Replaced the following: . Wilson Match barrel bushing, Videki trigger, McCormick sear and hammer,Wilson sear spring and firing pin spring and pin,Group gripper,wilson extended slide release. Basically replaced everything but frame,slide and barrel with high quality parts for under $800.00. She shoots like a dream. Also polished the feeding ramp and barrel myself. Smooth like glass

My middle son is a Navy Spec Ops guy. When he finished his initial training in '98 I bought him a Springfield Loaded Stainless. He sent it to Novacs for night sights and that's the extent of the work that's been done on it. The gun has made numerous silk descents into the ocean(s), lived in the deserts in Iraq and Afghanistan, East Africa and Central Africa, snow and ice in Scandinavia and mud everywhere. I don't think it's ever hiccuped a single time. We bought a Dillon machine so we could keep up with it and it just keeps right on ticking away after maybe 10-12000 rounds. If my life depended on a 1911 no doubt which one I'd buy.

Thanks guys.

I have information overload! But, I also have a good list of choices.

Thanks again.

Let us know when you buy one.....and post up a few pictures. Good luck!!

Another vote for the new S & W 1911PD w/ Scandiam Frame and 4.25" barrel. I now have a Colt full sized stainless, Kimber stainless/aluminum and Taurus full sized stainless. For the features and cost, I would buy another S & W.

My 5" SW1911PD has been 100%. I wouldn't hesitate to get another one. It's nice and light if you want to carry it but a steel one would be a great shooter with slightly less felt recoil. You'll hear some squawk about the external extractor but I fail to see the concern except for mere aesthetics. Nearly all handguns, except the 1911, has external extractors and no one says anything about them.

quote:

Originally posted by A7drvr:
My middle son is a Navy Spec Ops guy. When he finished his initial training in '98 I bought him a Springfield Loaded Stainless. He sent it to Novacs for night sights and that's the extent of the work that's been done on it. The gun has made numerous silk descents into the ocean(s), lived in the deserts in Iraq and Afghanistan, East Africa and Central Africa, snow and ice in Scandinavia and mud everywhere. I don't think it's ever hiccuped a single time. We bought a Dillon machine so we could keep up with it and it just keeps right on ticking away after maybe 10-12000 rounds. If my life depended on a 1911 no doubt which one I'd buy.

I have a Springfield "Loaded" in SubCompact, w/ Novaks. Never a burp in more rounds than I can count or remember.

I have a Springfield Mil Spec too, from about 1998. Same, same as above here. Springfield makes some serious stuff with a serious back-up on the warranty. "Life without any qualification or limitation."

I want to thank everyone for their input. It saved me from making a mistake.

I will go with the Springfield Loaded. For the money, seems hard to beat.

Thanks guys.

I just bought a Springfield EMP in 40 SW. Love the precision and definitely want more guns by SA.
Just missed a mint TRP Stainless for $800 in the local want ads yesterday. Still smarting over that one.

Post your impressions after your first range session.

Just picked up a very slightly used Springfield SS Loaded at the local gun shop for $550 -- checked with Springfield Customer Service and the pistol was made in 2002--- does not have any of the Brasil markings --- I am a happy camper on this one!!!

quote:

Originally posted by Woodmnctry:
Just picked up a very slightly used Springfield SS Loaded at the local gun shop for $550 -- checked with Springfield Customer Service and the pistol was made in 2002--- does not have any of the Brasil markings --- I am a happy camper on this one!!!

WELL DONE! I love it when this stuff happens

quote:

Originally posted by Wendell Reich:
I want to thank everyone for their input. It saved me from making a mistake.

I will go with the Springfield Loaded. For the money, seems hard to beat.

Thanks guys.

Some modifications

http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_Springfield.htm


Gun Review: Springfield Loaded 1911-A1

http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2...ield-loaded-1911-a1/