Any time the thread turns to "What do you carry?" there follows a litany of high-end handguns in high-end holsters, loaded with "designer ammo."

Trust me on this one. You shoot someone with a 45 ACP and they're going to break off the attack. The military has proved this now for 98 years (1911) with 230 gr. FMJ ammo in a 5" bbl.

Personally, I don't think "Silvertips" in 32 ACP are going to make the grade in a tight squeeze, no matter what you pay for them.

38 Spl, 9mm, 45 ACP, and the "dangerous game defensive caliber" handguns, 44 Mag. and larger are going to get the job done, no matter how they're loaded.

I like JHP from the "big five" -- CCI, Winchester, Remington, Federal, Peters. I've been known to load my own defense ammo. (That should get the thread rolling!)

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

I carry a best grade Yost-Bonitz Colt, Gold Dots and it all rides around in Alessi leather.

Sorry, I fit your stereotype.

I know you weren't starting a caliber war here, but I think shooting someone with a 9mm, 380, or less is taking a good chance on pissing them off even worse. No doubt the 9mm has been used successfully a bunch, but it has been used unsuccessfully a bunch too. I don't want to take the chance when the time comes. MY .02

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:
38 Spl, 9mm, 45 ACP, and the "dangerous game defensive caliber" handguns, 44 Mag. and larger are going to get the job done, no matter how they're loaded.

I like JHP from the "big five" -- CCI, Winchester, Remington, Federal, Peters. I've been known to load my own defense ammo. (That should get the thread rolling!)

That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.

I don't think I understand your definition of "designer ammo". If it's something not manufactured by a large well known company an exanple would be the Glaser, Corebon or the GECO BAT round (do they still make those?) then we're on the same page. If it's the Silvertip or Gold dot or Ranger T bullet then I'm a designer bullet user.

From what I've seen the smaller rounds benefit from new thinking and bullet design. Sometimes it takes a "designer" shop to push the SAAMI envelope and create a useful round.

FWIW my guns are presently all running some flavor of CCI Gold Dot ammo.

quote:

FWIW my guns are presently all running some flavor of CCI Gold Dot ammo.

So are most of mine.

What do ya'll think about reloads for Personal
Defense? I've of course heard the argument that if you have to use them and go to court, they'll make you look like a gun nut. I've also heard some who carry for a living say they carry what their gun likes, reloads or factory doesn't matter.

I recommend you carry factory ammo for defense.

Not only for the reason you stated, but if you miss, or go through the badguy, and hit an innocent by stander, it takes away some of your personal liability if you are using ammo made by a major manufacture "designed" for personal protection.

quote:

Originally posted by daniel77:
I know you weren't starting a caliber war here, but I think shooting someone with a 9mm, 380, or less is taking a good chance on pissing them off even worse. No doubt the 9mm has been used successfully a bunch, but it has been used unsuccessfully a bunch too. I don't want to take the chance when the time comes. MY .02

Good point --

There's the comment about the Prison Warden who notes: "I see a lot of inmates with 9mm wound scars. The only place I've ever seen someone with a 45 ACP wound is in the morgue."

That said, I like my Kahr MK9 w/ Federal Hydro-Shok.

For the 45 ACP's -- and I have several -- I just stock up on 230 gr. JHP Rem. in a more or less generic box of 50, at about $30.

Glaser and Corbon are the "designer ammo" I had in mind. I have some JHP in .357 mag that came from a loose lot I got somewhere along the line buying or trading.

158 gr. JHP, .357 magnum. I think the head stamp says "Win" but it could be "FC" -- Just yer basic, generic hollowpoint magnum. Nothing fancy.

If you miss and hit a bystander, you're going to get sued and you're going to be found liable. You might be able to argue extenuation, but the ammo you're using is not going to be a foundation for your defense.

I've had two criminal atorneys in Miami advise me to carry a stock handgun with stock factory ammo. Otherwise, the opposing attorney can say you were intentionally geared up to kill someone. Florida has some very liberal laws regarding personal protection slanted in the defensive shooter's favor, but I listen to lawyers' advice.

Wm

Read my post carefully. I never indicated that factory ammo would be a foundation for defense, only that reloads might increase your cupability.

I've still got a box of Winchester Black Talon in .45ACP. Haven't had to use them yet.

The back talons would absolutely get you on the 'eveil prson' list but probably work very well at keeping you alive.

quote:

Originally posted by jetdrvr:
I've had two criminal atorneys in Miami advise me to carry a stock handgun with stock factory ammo. Otherwise, the opposing attorney can say you were intentionally geared up to kill someone. Florida has some very liberal laws regarding personal protection slanted in the defensive shooter's favor, but I listen to lawyers' advice.

I had an attorney tell me the same thing. Your just asking for more trouble in court if you use reloads.

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
Wm

Read my post carefully. I never indicated that factory ammo would be a foundation for defense, only that reloads might increase your cupability.

I did read it carefully. Have a look at "ipso facto."

quote:

I like JHP from the "big five" -- CCI, Winchester, Remington, Federal, Peters.

I've been a big fan of Federal. Their Tactical HST 45acp+P is bad to the bone. But I'm starting to warm up to Winchester Ranger. Just for the hell of it I bought a box in 124gr 9mm. I was shocked. It expanded 3/4" diameter compared to the Federal Hydroshock 129gr 38+P which expanded 5/8". I'm still gonna always carry 45acp. What are your prefernces for different calibers?

I'm a big fan of 45 ACP Rem. 230 JHP in the plain white 50 rd. box. I think I paid about $30 or $35 for the box. What's nice is that I can afford to shoot this stuff for performance/practice evaluation and with a box of 50, I still have ammo left over for a couple full mags.

Remington makes a fine JHP bullet. And if the first one doesn't quite measure up, shoot again.

44 Mag. out in the woods, I load H110 and 240 gr. Oregon Trails Laser Cast, lead SWC. It's 44 Mag. We don't need a designer bullet.

My .44 Mag load for just puttering around in the woods is 10gr Unique/ Commercial 240gr SWC. But Winchester makes their Platinum Load with a 250gr Ranger/Talon style bullet that's scary accurate out of my Mountain Gun. Only draw back is the $1.25/round pricetag.

But a nickle plated bullet in a nickle plated case gives you a "silver bullet" to leave at the ladies bed side when you ride off into the sunset.

RBCD in my 45acp. 90gr at 2300fps!

One shot its all over!

quote:

Originally posted by griz78:

When seconds count, the cops are just minutes away.........

....... and waiting for more backup units before they move in to the "rescue"!

quote:

Originally posted by Wm.S.Ladd:

Trust me on this one. You shoot someone with a 45 ACP and they're going to break off the attack. The military has proved this now for 98 years (1911) with 230 gr. FMJ ammo in a 5" bbl.

Sorry, but I can't trust you on that one because I know differently. Example: suspect takes a .40 from a Glock to the chest at contact distance (point blank) from a police sidearm and proceeds to beat said policeman into a bloody pulp. Bystander fetches his Sig 220 loaded with .45acp HydraShoks and puts four (4) of them center mass in the suspect from 6 feet away as the suspect is sitting on the officer, beating him to death. The one .40 and four .45 rounds not only failed to stop the attack, the suspect then was able smash the officers head against the pavement and reach under the officer and grab his sidearm. The bystander then closed to 3 feet and placed one shot behind the suspects ear. The suspect was reported to have turned and glared at the bystander and tried to get up twice before expiring.

LINK

There are no magic calibers, no magic bullets, and nothing is for certain in a gunfight. A determined human, even an unarmed one, can be extremely hard to kill, even with a 45acp. By design, defensive handguns lack power and range, no matter what their reputation is.
I use a 1911 .45 myself but I understand the limitations of my weapon and I am prepared to use it as a club should the projectiles fail.

Rather than select ammo based on conjecture, I use the fastest, heaviest, reliable (both for feeding and expansion) hollow point ammunition I can find. So does almost every PD in the US.
Glaser is not "hollow point" by general use definition. It is fragmenting ammo and does not meet penetration requirements in my book (which is very thin and has lots of crayon drawings it ).
Corbon and Gold Dots can easily be considered "standard hollow points" due to the number of LE agencies using them. And that is the first thing I would have my attorney point out should the matter be brought up in some court.
But, as I posted in another thread, most people spend vast amounts of time wondering about litigation after a shooting and end up tailoring their mental plan to win the court battle not the gun battle. They automatically assume they will win the gunfight, even with skewed planning based on false assumptions.

Train properly, use a the biggest reliable handgun you can carry daily and shoot effectively and win the gunfight (if it ever actually happens).......then worry about the suit.
ChetNC

I don't carry reloads. Only factory ammo. I don't want the extra liability even in my Pro 2nd Ammendment state of Montana.

I am an attorney, and for most of the past 25+ years I've been defending civil liability cases. I am not offering any legal advice here, but "custom ammo" could become an issue in a civil suit if the perp was injured, maimed or died. Never done any criminal work so have no idea, but might be the same.

If you use an adequate calibre, you don't need "Black Talons" or anything with a "bad sounding" name if it ever became an issue. If I were defending someone who had been sued for shooting someone, I'd rather be able to say "Federal" or "Remington", etc. rather than "Black Talon", "handloads" or "custom loads".

That's just my 2 cents as a civil defense attorney who has never had to defend that particular kind of case.

The "no handloads for defense" mantra started in a gun rag many years ago. I think by Ayoob. IIRC, and I may be mistaken, handloads came up in a civil case, not criminal, when an officer in Texas blasted a miscreant from almost contact distance while conducting a traffic stop. The officer was using the old "flying ashtray" .45acp round, handloaded. The suspect was seated in a car and produced a weapon during the traffic stop and the officer fired from just outside the driver's door. The results of the headshot were somewhat spectacular and the family of the deceased sued after the DA cleared the officer. Their attorney attempted to show that handloads indicated the officer had "intended" to shoot someone, no matter the circumstances but plaintiff lost the case anyway.
I am not aware of any case where the cartridge used has had a negative impact on a legally justified shooting of a suspect. That said, I use factory ammo simply because I am not a handloader.
There is no precedent that I am aware of that would preclude the use of proven, reliable, accurate factory loads or handloads.
ChetNC

Massad Ayoob says "use what local law enforcement use". That sounds resonable to me.

quote:

Originally posted by ChetNC:
The "no handloads for defense" mantra started in a gun rag many years ago. I think by Ayoob.
ChetNC

This is the first concrete reference I've seen as to where the "don't use handloads" mantra got started. It makes perfect sense.

185 gr. JHP in 45 ACP. -- I have a Hodgdon Data Manual which gives a +P load for this bullet. 10 gr H110 and 1162 fps from a 5" bbl.

I've shot this load into "wet pack" -- saturated newspaper which is similar to gel block. A 5 gal plastic paint bucket, set on end, fired into the wet pack, no lid on the bucket.

Spectacular "wound channel." The channel opens up to about 6", splits the side of the bucket, and blows then end out, through the plastic bottom. Then the bullet dives into the dirt berm behind the bucket and I'd seen enough. I never dug the bullet out of the dirt.

The 185 gr. 45 cal JHP is pretty generic. I've since begun using a Rem. 230 gr. JHP and a standard factory load. I expect I don't need some special "+P" or fancy JHP config. to get the job done.

Military seems to "get the job done" in this caliber with Plain Jane, 230 gr. FMJ.

Hard to find shortcomings in a half oz of lead nearly a half inch in diameter at the muzzle.

quote:

There are no magic calibers, no magic bullets, and nothing is for certain in a gunfight. A determined human, even an unarmed one, can be extremely hard to kill, even with a 45acp.

Wasn't it Jeff Cooper who was quoted as saying you use a handgun to fight your way to a rifle?

I like that idea.

Standard 1911's can be a problem in CCW because the hammer and the front sight tend to catch on clothing. I like the 45's that have had that remedied.
FMJ's are great for penetration, but penetrating walls and killing unintended victims has been a problem for a few people every year or so. That's why many, including LEO's, use expanding bullets rather than FMJ.

Me, me, me I use your so-called designer ammo.

I liked how the Barnes solid copper bullets worked on my Namibian safari. When I bought my Kel-Tec P3-AT .380 auto for concealed carry when wearing light clothing or when riding my Harley, the CorBon DPX ammo was recommended because that is what Kel-Tec used when wringing out their little pocket pistol. DPX ammo uses Barnes bullets. So I bought a box of them in 380ACP, 357SIG, and 45ACP. I reload cheaper bullets for practice.

I will admit that a big, heavy slug from a 45 will usually do the job no matter what it's made from. But I find the guns that chamber that caliber too big to conceal comfortably. I suppose it would be okay if I was 6' 4" and 300#'s, wearing sweat pants all the time. Then I could just tuck it under my beer gut. Since I'm not built that way, nor dress that way, I tend to carry smaller pistols.

I would never try to convince anyone that a 380 with DPX ammo is the equal of a 45 with Win white box ammo. But having my pocket pistol on me is certainly better than having my full size 1911 in the vault cause it's too big, too heavy to comfortably carry around in hot, summer weather when dressed in t-shirt and shorts.

I suppose there were some folks at the beginning of the last century that thought jacketed bullets and smokeless gunpowder were 'designer' when the norm was lead and black powder. Hogleg six shooters gave way to plastic semi-autos. Look how far we've come since then.

quote:

Originally posted by lavaca:
.....

If you use an adequate calibre, you don't need "Black Talons" or anything with a "bad sounding" name if it ever became an issue.

That's just my 2 cents as a civil defense attorney who has never had to defend that particular kind of case.

My thoughts exactly on the 45 ACP!

I "procured" a few boxes of Federal LE HST 165 grain 40s from a local SD, in exchange for a few hours of instruction with a deputy who needed some extra range time.

In testing, these 165s launched at 1074 FPS from my G27 (for about 405 ft-lbs), penetrated two milk jugs full of gelatin (abut 15") but not the cardboard box behind the last jug and expanded to a bit over .6".

It has since become my carry round (hey, if the SD uses it, what liability can I have they don't?).

I agree-using exotic or handloads can only help raise questions to a grand jury, while not adding anything to your defense. Use what your local LEOs use, then if you need to use them, you can subpeona the LEO folks as to why they use it...

Molon Labe