My buddy insists that 9mm is "entirely useless." Although a couple 25 rd. sticks out of an Uzi Mod. 45 Mini Machine Gun got him thinking.

I'm good with 9mm, in a semi-auto. 32 ACP is better than nothing, but I'd only carry one where I don't need a gun in the first place. NAA Revolver in 22 LR is out of the question. 45 ACP is nice, but the guns are a bit large for CCW. I have a 44 mag, but only for "open carry."

I keep coming back to a .357 mag. snubby.

What's your "window" on caliber?

i'll go along 100% with jeff cooper when he said the best gun is the one you have in your hand

Your buddy is a little off. The .380 to me would be the lowest but I know people who carry .22lr's.

I can always remember Dr. Doleman with whom my father went to school and who was our family doctor...or MD as you say in America.

He recounted that he had been given a 455 Webley by a older friend and told me of that friend's experience in WWI.

Said friend was reported as saying that actually the Colt 380 was preferred to a captured Luger 9mm as with the 380 the bullet stayed in the body and had real "knock back" effect.

But that the 9mm Luger because it shot through did not. Not "knock down" but "knock back". And that in close fighting when bayonets were involved the 380 Colt was therefore preferred over the 9mm Luger.

They are all of them dead now so I suppose none of it matters much. But that is what was recounted of the 380 Colt vs the 9mm Luger.

i carry a 380 daily but dont want to be shot by any caliber

I'd certainly feel best with something in the .357 realm, but I can handle .38 spl without wetting myself. Like they say, any gun will do if you will do. A .44 and bad judgment, or a non-willingness to use it is worse than a mere .22 with good judgment.

In our CCW class, the line is that most gun-fights occur at a distance of 3 yards, are over in 3 seconds, with 3 shots fired.

One should have a weapon that is accurate and one that is comfortable being carried, otherwise it won't be there when you need it.

Wouldn't recommend .25ACP or .32, but most of the others in FMJ will penetrate anybody's skull at 3 yds.
The more powerful will get good penetration with softs, which is an obvious advantage.

The .380, 9mm, 9mm Makarov, 38spl, 357mag, and a host of others all shoot bullets about 36 cal., just varying (greatly) in weight and energy.

Some (most?) snubbies are very difficult to shoot accurately--even at 10 ft. Missing can have numerous dire consequences. I like at least a 3.5 inch barrrel.

Barrel on a Smith, Mod. 60 is 3" and I can hit the ol' pie plate at seven paces without sighting down the rib. Double action.

That said, I watched a police stop on TV where four people emptied four high cap. semi-autos and NO ONE got hit. In a crowded suburb no less.

380 is as low as I'll go for CC. But I'll make do with whatever I have on me at the time. A 22LR bouncing around inside someone's head or center mass can make for a bad day too.

I carry either a .45acp in an autoloader or a .44 mag in a revolver. No little stuff here--- If you are going to make a hole, make a hole that wil be memorable!

quote:

Originally posted by 0X0:
Barrel on a Smith, Mod. 60 is 3" and I can hit the ol' pie plate at seven paces without sighting down the rib. Double action.

That said, I watched a police stop on TV where four people emptied four high cap. semi-autos and NO ONE got hit. In a crowded suburb no less.

I have never fired a hand gun in anger so I am no expert here. Most people do not practice point and shoot enough. They mostly are calm and aim types. I am with you OXO on the point and shoot. We can not judge what is going thru a leo's mind during a confrontation but I bet his adrenalin his pumping rivers. I shoot at an outside range and did an experiment one day, I jogged up and down the firing line then commenced in shooting p and s and was there a big difference. Need more practice and yes I was the only one there lol. my 2 cents Boon

Practice is the key. I would rather be with someone shooting a 22 that they shot all the time than some turd that only shot his .45 twice a year. For me, the 9mm and .38 special are fine. I shoot both really well and my wife is learning quickly.

quote:

Originally posted by boondocker:

quote:

Originally posted by 0X0:
Barrel on a Smith, Mod. 60 is 3" and I can hit the ol' pie plate at seven paces without sighting down the rib. Double action.

That said, I watched a police stop on TV where four people emptied four high cap. semi-autos and NO ONE got hit. In a crowded suburb no less.

I have never fired a hand gun in anger so I am no expert here. Most people do not practice point and shoot enough. They mostly are calm and aim types. I am with you OXO on the point and shoot. We can not judge what is going thru a leo's mind during a confrontation but I bet his adrenalin his pumping rivers. I shoot at an outside range and did an experiment one day, I jogged up and down the firing line then commenced in shooting p and s and was there a big difference. Need more practice and yes I was the only one there lol. my 2 cents Boon

Local LEO's practice point/shoot at 7 yds or paces. They shoot at human silhouettes, but the 9" paper plate is a "redneck standard." At the "Dollar Store" you can pick up 100 paper plates for 99 cents.

IPSC has some good drills for "practical shooting" like rolling on the ground, shooting under an obstruction.

According to Ayoob and anybody who knows anything about stress reactions, the first thing that goes is small muscle control.

I'll go down to a 32 ACP, but only in polite company.

The 7.62x25 in the old CZ52's and tokarevs is obviously .30 cal, but way hot. 1600FPS and a real severe penetrator.

What butchloc said (via Jeff Cooper)...'what you have in your hand' (or words to that effect). Doesn't matter what you have back in the car. Or at home. What matters is what you have in your hand at that crucial moment where seconds really, really count. I'll take a .380 over nothing (or harsh words) everytime! At the very least it allows me to fight a retreat to a rifle. You won't need a handgun very often, but when you do....you really need it.

They have some really good .380s now; Ruger LCP's or Keltech 3AT's. Plus a bunch of lightweight .38's that will fit in the holster most of us always pack; a pocket. All are 'point and shoot'.

Today's bullets and powders have done wonders for the 380. It ain't your grandma's. But the biggest you can handle and carry will do.

As for muscle memory, THE MOST IMPORTANT part of you body in this context is your mind.
Are you ready? Can you do it? Have you really, really thought about it?

The rest is fluff. Just like Ayoob.

Would you feel comfortable facing a wounded buffalo with a .375? While it is perfectly adequate to kill a buffalo, it isnt the best choice to stop a charge. The same can be said for defending yourself with a handgun. A determined attacker under the influence of drugs and or alcohol is not going to be easy to stop with any caliber. Use the biggest caliber you can handle and stick to high velocity hollow point bullets.

quote:

A 22LR bouncing around inside someone's head or center mass can make for a bad day too.

FWIW (and probably not much), When I was a young guy, about 40 years ago, I drove an ambulance while attending college. We got a call of a car wreck. At the scene we found a car had deadcentered on a utility pole. Turns out the male, who was driving, had an argument with his girlfriend in the back seat. Being a particularly bright individual, she shot him in the back of the head with a .22 lr Sat Nite Special. It temporarily caused him to lose consciousness and he went off the road and in to the pole.

At the hospital, the MD examined him and found the bullet did not penetrate his skull. There was a small entry wound and then a ridge not unlike a mole would create in soil. At the end of the ridge was a lump - the bullet. The MD rubbed a little alcohol on the lump, sliced it open with a scalpal and popped out the bullet. Two stitches and some pain pills for the headache later, the guy that was shot was turned over to the police for questioning.

Crazy as it sounds, it's the truth.

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
i'll go along 100% with jeff cooper when he said the best gun is the one you have in your hand

DITTO!!!!!!!!!!
I'll take a BB gun over nothing!!!!!!

What you have in your hand....

But IF you have a choice of what you have in your hand...

What should you choose????

quote:

Originally posted by N E 450 No2:
What you have in your hand....

But IF you have a choice of what you have in your hand...

What should you choose????

For me: I have opted for a .38+P in a Taurus Ultralite. I used to carry a AMT Backup in a 45ACP but it is heavy and "I" could not hit anything further than 10 feet away with any degree of certainty. The trigger is awful. I also have a AMT .380 Backup but it is also heavier than my .38. Another thing about the auto's is they "litter", if you get my drift. I'm not one to shoot and run since it is rude, but in this society, you never know.

I just hope and pray that I never have to use any of them!

The "redneck standard" paper plate is a heart/lung shot on both two legged varmints and most game animals. Different techniques but same target size.

Rae59

I would agree, when you are carrying minimal, it is hard to beat a 5 shot DA Revolver, especially when you consider reliability and accuracy...

IMHO, my .38+P or 9mm would suffice. My .40 S&W would make me more comfortable. My "constant companion" is a 10mm.

We're not talking about "what's your preference?"

We're talking about minimum caliber you feel is adequate for concealed carry. 32 ACP for me is about making the perp decide it hurts too much to continue the aggression.

But some get whacked out, and won't stop until you stop them. In that case, 380 ACP is on the "too small" side. I think 9mm Makarov is on the small side. 9mm in a JHP, and "defense load" like Federal ammo.

38 Spl. works for me w/ a 158 gr. bullet -- SWC is fine, but JHP is better.

-- for people defense.

Out in the woods I like a Smith 629, 4" bbl. in 44 Mag. 240 gr. JSP.

Maybe I worded my post wrongly.

"Would suffice" equates to what I'd consider a minimum for a reliable self-defense tool.

9mm or .38+P

Wouldn't consider either much of a "stopper" round. But I would feel somewhat adequately protected with both.

quote:

Originally posted by Rae59:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by butchloc:
i'll go along 100% with jeff cooper when he said the best gun is the one you have in your hand

DITTO!!!!!!!!!!

I see many folks with handguns that are big and heavy, and most times they are left at home. I am not sure about a .22, but with the quality of today's ammo a .380 or 9mm would surely work well.

I would agree with the Cooper wisdom, better to have a weapon than not.

Now, the smallest I carry is a 9x19... just my personal preference.

However, I would not feel worthless with a NAA .22 rimfire revolver.

I remember the sage advice of my old man... "It's not necessarily the size of the man in the fight, as much as the size of the fight in the man."

And speaking from personal experience, I can't get any volunteers to stand down range and prove to me that the 9x19 isn't enough gun! Heck, I can't get em' to stand in front of the dang .22!

I usually carry a 32 acp because it can fit easily in my pocket. I sometimes carry a 357 snubnose, but prefer the smaller pistol.

38+p just replaced my s&w shorty with a hammer with a ruger hammerless that is lite enough to take everywhere i go. in what another already suggested....my holster that all clothes that i wear have [ MY POCKET ] do this with any auto with the expection of it functioning inside the confines of a coat pocket. see the real deal is to appear not armed until needed then walk straight into the threat and shoot it as many times as you can without letting the threat get into the game. sounds onesided huh....yep and the winner as well. why take your defender out of your pocket to allow some hyped threat try to remove it from your sweaty grasp which is easier then one would think.

dont talk about it...if the threat is real....just shoot the bugger and live to answer the stupid questions that the winner always seems to have to answer

A 9mm with "proper" ammo is fine in my opinion. Bigger may be better but I would not feel under gunned with a compact 9.

Yesterday I shot a 140 pound boar at 10 yards with my PPk in 380 loaded with 80gr Corbon DPX. My PPK is my usual carry gun so I stuck in my back pack incase I have the opportunity to test it on a real animal. Long story short it worked. My first shot was high in the shoulder, he really did not like that. As he was exiting I put one in his hips to knock him down then 2 in the heart lung sealed the deal...and pretty quick. The heart/lung shots penetrated clean through the ribs and were in the cartilage plate on the off side. I'll measure the recovered slug and post a picture of it. I have to say after the fact that the 380 penetrated adequately, expanded well and incapacitated the hog quickly when vital shots were made.

I carry the PPK more for its size and comfort than its killer power. If I need power I have a Colt Commander in 45acp.

Perry

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Yesterday I shot a 140 pound boar at 10 yards with my PPk in 380 loaded with 80gr Corbon DPX. My PPK is my usual carry gun so I stuck in my back pack incase I have the opportunity to test it on a real animal. Long story short it worked. My first shot was high in the shoulder, he really did not like that. As he was exiting I put one in his hips to knock him down then 2 in the heart lung sealed the deal...and pretty quick. The heart/lung shots penetrated clean through the ribs and were in the cartilage plate on the off side. I'll measure the recovered slug and post a picture of it. I have to say after the fact that the 380 penetrated adequately, expanded well and incapacitated the hog quickly when vital shots were made.

I carry the PPK more for its size and comfort than its killer power. If I need power I have a Colt Commander in 45acp.

Perry

Good info. I have heard good things about Cor Bon DPX Ammo, in several calibres..

The slug measured .70 in the widest point and .645 in the smallest. Cleaned up it weighed 79.3 grains.

Perry

Carrying a small caliber reminds me of a carpenter that carries a 2 oz. brad hammer for breaking up concrete; because it fit's so well in his front pocket, and is so light and handy.
It seems to me that a personal protection firearm is a pretty serious tool that should fit the chore at hand.
I'm a pretty big guy, and if the time comes when I do need to use a defensive weapon, it will be because I need to stop a big assailant quickly. I'm a retired contractor and have learned to use the right tool for the job at hand. In this case it would be a .45 caliber.
If I were a bad guy and was shot with a small caliber that did not immediately stop me, now I'm gunna kill you asap, because I sure don't want to get shot again; that hurt!
Small calibers may save your life for sure; but they can also get you killed if things don't go well. What you carry just depends on how badly you want to survive.
Yes, I would carry even a .22 if that's all I had. But this is America and I have a choice. And the little Kahr PM 45 that I carry is about the size of a big .380
JMHO

quote:

Originally posted by DWright:
Carrying a small caliber reminds me of a carpenter that carries a 2 oz. brad hammer for breaking up concrete; because it fit's so well in his front pocket, and is so light and handy.
It seems to me that a personal protection firearm is a pretty serious tool that should fit the chore at hand.
I'm a pretty big guy, and if the time comes when I do need to use a defensive weapon, it will be because I need to stop a big assailant quickly. I'm a retired contractor and have learned to use the right tool for the job at hand. In this case it would be a .45 caliber.
If I were a bad guy and was shot with a small caliber that did not immediately stop me, now I'm gunna kill you asap, because I sure don't want to get shot again; that hurt!
Small calibers may save your life for sure; but they can also get you killed if things don't go well. What you carry just depends on how badly you want to survive.
Yes, I would carry even a .22 if that's all I had. But this is America and I have a choice. And the little Kahr PM 45 that I carry is about the size of a big .380
JMHO

I agree with the right tool analogy but when the shooting starts bad guys are not evaluating the damage or lack there of, you're giving them too much credit for thinking and evaluation.

Perry

I too would carry a 22 if that was all that was available but the smallest I carry right now is my Kahr MK9 (9mm) w/ Hornady XTP 115 gr and it is not much bigger than a small 22 semi auto.

Big dunb and slow rules!!! hitum with a 45 once and be done with it compact 45

Let's be realistic. I am a capable, well trained full grown man, 5'11", 185 lbs. My daughter is a full grown 5'4" 110 lb size 0/2 lady with tiny by comparison hands...

I carry a full size full powered fighting handgun daily, she carries a ladysmith 32 mag. Which of us is not doing it right?

While Lydz can shoot my 45acp/40SW/10mm just fine, she has trouble manipulating the controls, concealing it and its acouterments while her LS and speed strip simply disappears under an untucked shoirt or girly stylish vest or whatever.

The point of being armed is being armed. Use what you can work expertly, practice until it is rather second nature, do refresher training often and always think security.

Hitting with a 32 is much better for Lydz than missing with a 45...

Best;

The .32 H&R magnum offers substantially more performance than other .32 caliber handgun cartridges, such as the .32 ACP, and can be considered an effective small game hunting cartridge. Its higher velocity offers a flat trajectory, while the light weight of the bullets results in low recoil. The ancient .32-20 WCF was extremely popular in the Winchester lever's and Colt single actions, available at the turn of the century, for small-medium game hunting. The .32 H&R offers near duplicate performance.

One of the .32 H&R magnums favorable attributes is that it offers .38 Special energy levels and allows a small-frame revolver to hold 6 cartridges, whereas a similarly sized revolver in .38 special would only hold 5 rounds. Penetration is also increased compared to the .38 special with bullets of the same weight.

The .32 H&R Magnum is considered by many to be at the lower end of acceptable self-defense cartridges, comparing favorably with the popular .380 ACP and with standard-pressure .38 Special loads, as well as the less powerful .32 ACP.

Max pressure for the .32 H&R Mag is set at 21,000 CUP by SAAMI.

--------------------------

I'm talking about stuff like 32 ACP, and 22 LR. While I don't want to be shot with either, I think both are insufficient for serious defense.

On the other hand, I don't feel a "tactical" full size 45 ACP is practical for daily carry. I don't care how "daily" you do it. It's like jumping in the Humvee to get across the street.