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One of Us |
In choosing which loads to use for an indoor self-defense shotgun, a little testing MIGHT help. For instance one might modify the following procedure as you see fit: 1. Get the biggest "off" (soured) chunk of beef or pork or whatever meat is available...preferably with bones in it. 2. Measure off the longest clear shot in your house. 3. Somewhere safe to shoot, hang the meat at that measured distance and shoot it with various shot sizes. I suspect that the fist thing you'll find is that even with "spreader" loads, a lot of the shots will look more like rifle wounds than shotgun patterns. Small shot, contrary to popular talk, is extremely deadly up close. It acts more like a meat grinder than one might imagine, chewing its way into the target. While it is true that a single double-O or triple-0 piece of shot will penetrate many times farther than a single # 7-1/2 pellet, it is purely amazing what a cluster of #7-1/2s striking in immediate proximity of each other will do...and how far the cluster will penetrate. Yet, in an apartment wall, the individual big buck pellets will each continue on with deadly force for a surprising distance after penetrating the drywall of both sides of the wall. The 7-1/2s generally won't. Even #9 trap loads do very well up close.... Please note, I am NOT saying those small shot should be your choice. I AM suggesting though that such an experiment to see what actually occurs with various pellet sizes from YOUR shotgun can provide very meaningful input to your decision. Best wishes and stay safe. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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At 3 paces dove shot will cut down an 1 1/2" pine almost every time. At 10 paces, the results are much less spectacular. Birdshot is very useful for self defence, but only with in a very limited range band. | |||
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I thought for a long time before I committed to a gun for hunting rabbits and birds, to protect my home and valuables. So I sort of asked some who carry guns for a living and they suggested, that I get myself a Remington or Mossberg pumpshot gun in 12 ga. Then load it up with 000 Buckshot & # 2's every other shot. This is exactly what I did do. | |||
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Just out of curiosity, did THEY test what they recommended on flesh? Or were they repeating what some trainer taught them? Some of the least knowledgeable shooters I have ever met are those who are paid to carry guns daily. Hope that is not true with the ones who gave you advice. Nothing is more reliable for YOUR use than what you have tested for yourself. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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I know of no Trainers who are recomending Birdshot for Home Defense. Seems what is commonly recomended today is Tactical, or reduced recoil 00, or Buck and Ball. Every self defense gun needs to have a light on it. Cold Zero | |||
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For lethality, they may be right, but I suggest one might be wise to frame up a short piece of double dry wall (single plys with 2x4 frame in between). Then use a shelf support (one of the steel ones) to hang some meat about 8" away from the wall on the other side. Then shoot at the dry wall with 00 buck or buck 'n ball, opposite where the meat is hanging on the other side. Did it do anything to the meat? What do you think.? That meat is intended to simulate the neighbor's 6 month old kid in the next apartment. Then use whatever you want in your self-defense gun. Your call. For mine I'll continue to use birdshot. | |||
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one of us |
Same here although I have a bunch of old factory lead number fours from the good old days. Amazing how fast and how far out a load of #4 shot will drop a hog. I'll have to do the dry wall test one day and see if or how badly they over-penetrate. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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...might want to wrap that meat in heavy clothing and see what does and doesn't happen! Robert If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802 | |||
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A couple of weeks ago I talked with a fellow who use is 12ga to kill a fellow that had stabbed him in the back with a 10 in bowie. He had no 4 shot in it not buck one shot to the chest at about 10 feet dropped his very large attacker on the spot. He had the shotgun by the door for small four legged varmints. He had loaded handguns in the house put it was the shotgun he was able to get to after being attack. Bird shot at very close range under 20 feet can be very deadly. Then here was the fellow who struck a 12 ga in his mouth pulled the trigger and blew half is face of and lived. His face was messed up the rest of his life. Bad shot placement. But with anything nothing is perfect. I know of a accidently shooting where a 15 year old took a 3inch 12 ga load of 6's in the back at about 5 feet. When his buddy behind him slipped and shot him. He lived lost a kidney put live. Another fellow I know took a 45-70 405 gr sp through the body and live from a hunting accident. A sucide attemt I investagated the fellow shot himself side to side with a 170 gr 30-30 throught the guts and lived. Poor shot placement he did end up a few years latter killing himself. Some people are hard learners. Nothing is perfect that is why one must keep on shooting untill the threat ends. | |||
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I think there is a difference between being in an apt. and being in a house. For use inside an apt., I would look into using frangible ammo. Using a shotgun in that application would be asking for trouble. MHO. Cold Zero | |||
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Alberta Cannuck.....I can not tell you what the tested period. However, I can tell you that I tested all sorts of ammo for the Mossberg model 590 pump shot gun in 12ga. This shotgun has ghost ring sights and the front sight is a night vision type. All most all testing was done at 20 yards or 60 feet. Now even a load of #5 shot is deadly at this range mind you. We used several types of test media, watermellon gets people excited but shows little in penetration ability. This is were wet news print comes in to save the day. Also tested some slugs to but I do not recommend any slugs in a home defense shotgun. I load up with 3 inch 000 Buckshot alternated with #2 or 4 Buckshot. The 000 Buck is good for 70 yards on a head-shot. | |||
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Anything else you want to plug ? Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.  Cold Zero | |||
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This is were wet news print comes in to save the day. Also tested some slugs to but I do not recommend any slugs in a home defense shotgun. I load up with 3 inch 000 Buckshot alternated with #2 or 4 Buckshot. The 000 Buck is good for 70 yards on a head-shot.[/QUOTE] 3" buckshot has too much recoil for me. I'll stick w/ 2 3/4". 000 for head shots at 70 yards! Are you kidding me. What choke? What percent of pellets were on target? Anything after 30-35 yards and it's slug time for me. Robert If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802 | |||
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Any two legged animal that can be killed with 3", can be killed with 2 3/4". If I had to take a 70 yd. headshot, I would be using slugs, not 000 buck. MHO. Cold Zero | |||
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I added this low-cost light system to the end of my barrel. The bracket was $8, the flashlight was $3 at Home Depot.  NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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While I do appreciate the ingenuity. In practice a bad idea. Have you shot it repeatedly with that light in place ? I am curious to see if it will hold up to the concussion and barrel whip, without failing. To manipulate the light, your hand is too close to the business end, with a round in the chamber. You can not quickly engage and turn off the light. Giving away your position and turning you into a bullet magnet. Try holding that light (with a lanyard) in your support hand instead. MHO. Be safe. Cold Zero | |||
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It all works like a charm. The flashlight lense serving as a target does concern me but I'd rather know who/what I'm shooting at in the dark. The only time I needed a rig like this did not require a flashlight. NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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fla30/06 Here is a thought. Move that shotgun mount back toward the forearm so it is easier to turn on. Make it so that you can turn it on by slitting your finger between it and the end cap. That way you can use the push button feature, ie on and off with out twisting the end cap of the flashlight. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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I just use an old miners hat with light on the top and throw up my bull horn with my free hand saying "Come and get it" nothing like being in the spotlight...........so preps can shoot the balls from between your legs gentlemen. Hell no, I don't use a light period on any gun! | |||
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450, thanks, did that, works better. NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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BD, lights are for people who care about who, and what they shoot. Many of us have family members and want to be sure of who, and what we are shooting before we pull the trigger. I hear what you are saying about not wanting to broadcast your position, that's why "turn it on, leave it on" is not the preferred method. As with so many things firearms related, proper use of a light required study and training. | |||
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A.S. there is not a Training School or LE Agency/Dept. in the country who would advocate that not using a light, is superior in any way to using one. Nor, would anyone suggest that using a light set up, in the above photos, would be effective, nor safe. Continueing this discussion is a waste of time and bandwith. Cold Zero | |||
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Zero who put you in charge of what anyone would, could or would not use in the way of a tool to help themselves. You some kind of J_0 who likes to let everyone know his is a training instructor (you type like one) You most likely never been in a F_*()U& gun fight or dark alley when the shit hits the fan..............SO GO sit on a picket fence A$$ wipe! | |||
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In todays world I do not know of ANY SWAT team or Military Spec Op team that does not use a light, [or lights] on their guns. In the early 1980's, before there were lights designed to be mounted on guns we taped standard streamlights on our rifles when making entrys. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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Zero why don't you call up the Pentagon and tell the Army they should use SLUGS! I am postitive you will get the kind of reaction from them that suits you to a T. | |||
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Must you post your dribble in every single thread here. Troll.  Cold Zero | |||
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Zero you should take up finger painting! As usual you have some sort of childish reply that means simply Zero to the thread. The US Army proved the value of buckshot concerning the enemy back in the late 60's and again in the 80's......Dah! Now bend over and stick that finger of your right up your own A$$ Cowboy. | |||
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.....and you think HE'S being childish???? _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
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Eland Slayer I am old enough to be in my second childhood and Zero never got through his first as of yet! This BS with lights on your weapon is nothing more than the industry making millions over a product. Nothing beats a good hand held flashlight in the first place held 2 ft out away from your body. I rest my case gentlemen! | |||
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The PM's I get tell me Blue Dog is a contentious asshole, reprobate, and shit-stirrer. Not that I ever had any doubts, but he nonetheless strives to re-affirm the characterization incessantly. -- And no, I never claimed I wasn't another.  | |||
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Rothke you arn't man enough to hold my jock strap let alone a firearm. Perhaps you could wear one between your legs.........Now you and your buddies don't need to be PMing me either. | |||
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No, you're right . . . not gay enough to hold your jock strap. -- And, you proved yourself again!  | |||
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Knock it off, now. I will lock this thread down if this contentious BS continues. "Ignorance you can correct, you can't fix stupid." JWP If stupidity hurt, a lot of people would be walking around screaming. Semper Fidelis "Building Carpal Tunnel one round at a time" | |||
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What is your technique for clearing your house with the above home defense shotgun, while holding a handheld light 2 ft. out from your body and holding the shotgun with one hand? How do you open doors, do you have a third hand ? How do you clear malfunctions ? When was the last time, you had Low Light training if ever ? Who espoused to you this shotgun Low Light technique that you are advocating above? Do you even own a weapon with a dedicated light on it? Or are you just bad mouthing something that you have not been trained on and do not own? Love to hear the next bit of B.D. wisdom.... Cold Zero | |||
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Cold Zero, I am sorry but in the interest of this forum, I don't wish to comment because it seems to provoke profane words from several of your blanket buddies. I will simply bid you and the rest of your want ta bees good day and leave it as such. I will not share information with you period or you name calling internet friends on this forum. I know what I can do and have done and you are so far behind, it would take another lifetime for you to catch up. Now go read your training manual some more! I been there already and know the drills of reality on the streets. I have indeed already learned how to take care of business many years ago from those that wrote those books, trust me on that fact Rookie. | |||
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If you really meant that you wanted what was best for this forum, you would leave, or at the very least, read only with NO posting and try to improve yourself from those that know more than you. Instead you say you don't want to provoke comments from the memnbers, and then you call the whole board a "wanna bees", are you really that dumb to think this will stop the well deserved harrassment ?  You did not answer my direct and fair question above, because your background is devoid of substantive training and your Walter Mitty mind is the extent of your real world experience. In the real world, you get the training first, then comes the experience, that is how it works in REALITY.  Cold Zero | |||
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Sounds like 1 year of Experience repeated many times over. Things have changed over the pass 33 plus years that I worked the job. Let alone what was taught in the decades before that, Most for the better and weapon mounted lights and night sights are a couple of the best for the better. As an instructor I have seen a great improvement in the number of rounds on target with night sights and the use of weapon mounted lights. There is no real good way to use a hand held light and a long gun I have tried them all. I even prefer weapon mounted lights on my handguns if they well take them. | |||
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Well P-Dog Shooter! My shotgun is not a long gun by far and I will never use a light on a pistol, rifle or long shotgun ever. | |||
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