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| One of Us |
id get the siaga If your gonna be dumb, you gotta be tuff. | |||
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| one of us |
Also the AR15 that is next to my head as I sleep, has three lights attached to it... A TLR2, light and laser, the laser being sighted in at 100 yards, a SureFire Nitrolon, and a SureFire 4 battery Leopard light. When I pick the AR up, there are 80 rounds attached to it. Also I have a "six pack" ie.six 30 round magazines next to the AR... Overkill??? If I only need one round to solve the problem, so much the better, but remember I live in the "Toolies", help is a long way away... DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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| one of us |
Well, first of all, let me state that I really can't imagine a real home defense CRIMINAL situation where more than a few rounds would be needed. It's not warfare and you won't be under siege. Either you kill or run them off or they've killed or disabled you in a few shots, one way or the other. They, meaning the bad guys are under time pressure, whether you have or you haven't had the time to make the 911 call, they will assume legal help is on the way, so they will almost certainly disengage if there is serious resistance. All that said, the above discussion about how many rounds one should have is ridiculous. It is the same as "How dead is dead?" when applied to the size of cartridge used to take big game. Personally, like N E 450 No2, I like more rounds. After all, reasonably speaking, you can't have too many, but you can damn sure have too few. 3 shots in a shotgun may be enough, but what if it isn't, do you have time to go to the closet, find another box or handful of rounds and start over? Probably not. What if there are 5 of them and you use 2 shots on one? Etc, etc? Mo' is betta.  xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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| one of us |
PS: I don't know what the minimun I'd consider acceptable would be, but I'd certainly keep an additional 5 round holder on the butt stock as a minimum. This is also personal preference and probably reflects my lack of training with riot style shotguns, but an extended magazine holding 5 or 6 extra rounds really affects how a shotgun handles in my hands. Personally, I'd rather have a shotgun that I can shoot instictively (like the Beretta Antelope Sniper mentions above because he is used to it) than a riot gun in my hands in the dark when the chips are down. Again, this is probably a lack of training on my part, but there it is, and I am an expert shotgun shooter by almost any standards EXCEPT self defense. Most people are not trained or used to shooting a barrel heavy shotgun. It ain't how many shots you have but where you put the first one that counts the most BUT that doesn't negate the fact that you might need many more if the first one doesn't end the situation. Finally, since we're talking home defense here, one has to be aware of how many people are normally in his home and where they are located and use this to both influence his choice of home defense weapons and the use thereof. There are way too many instances of home owner's shooting wives or children because they're not sure who is where. Wake up in the middle of night with wife shaking you saying, "There's someone in the house!!!!" and you grab a gun, are probably half asleep, maybe had a drink or two before going to bed, (in other words are not mentally alert) and hear some banging around in the living room.......is it really a bad guy or is it your teen aged or college aged son coming home drunk, even if he's a perfect kid and never drinks (supposedly) and is supposed to be away for the weekend......it can happen. Like always, think before you shoot. xxxxxxxxxx When considering US based operations of guides/outfitters, check and see if they are NRA members. If not, why support someone who doesn't support us? Consider spending your money elsewhere. NEVER, EVER book a hunt with BLAIR WORLDWIDE HUNTING or JEFF BLAIR. I have come to understand that in hunting, the goal is not the goal but the process. | |||
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One of Us |
As evidenced in this thread and many others, the vast majority of gun owners would be well served to take at least one firearms course predicated on some aspect of self defense with a firearm not including a CHL/CCW certification course. | |||
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| One of Us |
Good advice. Too many guys just want to buy another gun, cause it is easy. But, never make the effort to get properly trained. Cold Zero | |||
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| One of Us |
Yeah, I pretty much have migrated to the position that when I need more than a pistol, I need a rifle. | |||
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| One of Us |
I've never understood that. I always believed that if you have money to spend, spend it on ammo and practice. If you can't shoot, an additional gun won't change that. | |||
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| One of Us |
A basic class is just that, basics! Usually only one gun is covered. My dept offered Hoffners Tact. Pist. then I took Tact. Shotg. when it was offered. The stance and mindset stuff was the same...two completely different weapons systems! To begin to get past that level will require more perfect practice ( w/ and/or w/o ammo) and more advanced level classes. My 870 has the original 18"/18.5" barrel, original 4 round magazine + a 4 side saddle. Probably going to put a Wilson +1 extension on soon. Too much weight out front may cut down recoil but it also slows down movement that I do want. I tried a 5 round butt stock...weight was in the wrong place, like the way the 4 round side saddle feels. Robert If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802 | |||
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| One of Us |
It is easy to go out and buy another gun, or more gear, training takes time, sweat and effort. Cold Zero | |||
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| One of Us |
Everything is being lost to paranoia. You guys got the max ammo you can carry but do you have the time to put it on and will it matter? Ar3e you gonna go after these dudes? What about a flack vest, helmet, goggles and a K-bar. A bandollier is easier to handle in a stress situation. A inexpensive shot gun does the same thing as a set up riot gun - goes boom and very loud in a house. 20 yards I thought the disscussion was about home defense. Be careful about dispatching someone outside the house. My old Western Field 12 will do just fine. PS: i didnt boder to sell ck an stuff. | |||
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| One of Us |
Ugly, there are alot of different scenerio's. For some of us, home defence might be a one room apartement, with a max shooting range of 3 steps. For others, it might be homestead defense. The barn could be 40 yards away, and the may be covered by clear fields of fire for hundreds of yards. Regarding equipement, you bring up a good point. The two I'd like to add to your list for consideration are ballistic shield, and ballistic blanket. In the middle of the night it's unlikely someone would have the time to throw on a vest, helmet and goggles, but you might have enough time to pick up a shield. Here's another consideration. Lets say you have your family holes up in the master suite of your house. You have rifle, pistol, shotgun, and a few 1000 rounds for each. So, once all the shooting starts, WHAT ABOUT YOUR WIFE AND KIDS BEHIND YOU?? What's going to stop the stray bullets? a sheet of OSB? 2 sheets of sheetrock? the new plastick bathtubs? For this reason I belive a ballistic blanket could make alot of sence. | |||
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| one of us |
why is pump better than semi-auto for defense? faster to reload? I don't have a defense shotgun yet, but figure if I'm going to plan in the future to get one should I save for the pump setup or the auto? Red | |||
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| one of us |
This post is interesting. First you have to clarify what you are defending. A house in a residential area? If that is the case, then I would not want 30 rds out of an AR15 flying through the house, possibly through the walls and into another person's house. You may be justified in using it for self defense, but if you injure or kill a neighbor, you are in deep you know what. Another consideration is have any of you ever shot a AR15 class weapon in a closed area like a room, without ear protection? I have...(don't ask) and I can tell you it is quite the experience. I cannot imagine multiple shots. You also have to consider laws. Most states have laws that say you can defend yourself, but if you take a shot at 50-100 yards, you are going to have a bit of a problem claiming you thought your life, or lives of others, was in immediate jeopardy. The above, of course, more or less relates to a suburban situation, and not one out in the country where there may be other factors. My go to gun is a stock GI 45. I measured the maximum distance, in my house, that I would have to shoot. I then went to the range and practiced from a couple of feet to that distance. I fired about 1000 rounds over a period of few weeks doing this. I do have a Remington 870 18" barrel with the standard magazine tube, and a side saddle shell holder. In all honesty, if I have depleted the ammunition in both those guns, in the confines of my house, and haven't stopped the problem well then, I don't think anything would have helped. | |||
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| One of Us |
differening schools of thought on this. a semi-auto is much easier to run one handed or in bad/non-traditional situations (try pumping a bed while pointing under a 8" high frame (like a bed), very difficult. however, a pump runs. if a round fails or you short stroke it, you just pump again and you are back in the game. (same theory behind a revolver vs. a semi auto pistol). Sometimes, esp if not held correctly with an inertia shotgun, a semi-auto won't function. (benelli's are notorious for this). All my HD shotguns are pump's, your experience may vary. Brian H Longmont CO | |||
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| One of Us |
Home defense shotguns. Pumps (IMHO opinion, see above post for reasoning). 12 ga wide open bored (cylinder or skeet) extended magazine. (by far the slowest part of running a shotgun is reloading, see any expert training for this, or just try it). light!!!!, the best ones are part of the forearm and extremely bright (surefire), so the light comes on as you squeeze. pistol grip. (try holding a shotgun on Mr Bad guy with one hand while dialing your phone with the other without a pistol grip) sight doesn't matter. A. as someone mentioned earlier you don't see the sight in good shotgunning and B. in a high stress situation you won't see the sight anyway and C. aim light, when middle of light on target pull trigger, close enough. center of mass. #00 Buckshot, 9 pellets, 1.125oz load, reduced recoil LE. (federal makes some fine ones, many others). short length of pull. A big guy (like me) can still run a short LOP shotgun effectively, a short person (like my wife) can't run a long LOP gun. Plus you want the short quick handling gun inside where there are things to run into. PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE. Even if just at the trap range. (BTW, I shoot really well with my HD shotguns at the trap range, way better than I do with my high dollar pretty guns, makes everyone chuckle) Under the bed, behind doors, above doors, quick and fast to get to. Kept in cruiser ready. Cruiser ready is: cycle the action, pull the trigger on a empty chamber, load the magazine, safety OFF. (you will forget!!!, safety is in your head). Now, when you grab the gun, you quickly cycle the action and you're ready to roll. But no one just picking up the gun (a kid) can pull the trigger and have anything happen. Your manual of arms is always cycle the action when picking up the gun. If it doesn't cycle, there's a round in there ready to roll, if it does, you're now full ready to roll. Seconds count. just like this: http://www.remingtonle.com/shotguns/870pmax.htm  (about $900 with the light, you can put your own light on)Brian H Longmont CO | |||
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| One of Us |
Why a Pump? There are alot of people in my area that may not understand English, but they all understand "Clack Clack". | |||
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| One of Us |
Shotgun! Shotgun! Can not be beat for point and click. I have an old family relic 12 gauge Western Field with a short barrel, kinda pretty 'n effective. But again I really don't know, its never been woke............. | |||
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| One of Us |
All this is FUBAR you ain't gonna shoot more than two or three rounds when called upon. an el cheepo shotgun will do the same there here guys. If you live in a place where this type of protection is needed, well, adjust yer life.. My best advise ... get some claymores | |||
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| One of Us |
Ugly, there was an interesting incident a few years back. A gentleman was confronted by 8 bad guys in a home invasion attack. He killed all 8 of them with a shotgun. Something tells me he used more the 2 or 3 rounds. We had another interesting one here in Colorado. Lady emptied two revolvers before she made it to her shotgun, and which time the bad guys decided they picked on the wrong Grandma.... | |||
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| one of us |
I have used both on rifles shotguns and varis handguns . On rifles and shotguns lighted front sight only A lighted rear blocks out very thing in front of it.Too close to the eyes. I prefer both sights to be lighted on my handguns. My home defense shotgun is a 870 18 inch barrel with modified choke loaded with 9 pellet OO buck bead sight. There is a AR handy for farther work. After 33 years as a LEO and many of those as an instructor thats what I found out works best for me. | |||
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| One of Us |
I've seen these tritium sights done "properly" here in Europe. The two rear sight "ears" being a simple flat line. The front sight being a dot or a vertical line. So that it appears as a almost (although my diagram is restricted by what my computer can type: - . - or - ' - (except I cannot get my computer to put the vertical line or the dot in the proper position...but I think you get the idea). Thus you know if the dot is central AND if your up and down is correct. Plus it is easy to get a estimate of elevation if you need. A sort of tritium equivalent with the vertical line of the classic German No 1 'scope reticule as it were... | |||
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| One of Us |
Semi-Auto is gas operated. In a shotgun, that means different loads need different gas settings. The pump needs no "settings" and if it doesn't go bang, the pump action will get you a new round in the chamber more effectively than manually clearing a semi-auto. I bought a Police De-Commissioned Rem. 870 in about 1995, for $85 . . . Cleaned it up and have never used it. Nice to have though. Added an extended mag, and a sling. -- Sights . . . I shoot trap. Never look at the sight or the rib. We look at the bird, both eyes open. When the gun fits it shoots where you're looking. Practice trumps techie sights. | |||
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one of us |
Probably won't matter in Texas; won't for sure in Harris County and surrounding area. FWIW, it ain't a Rem 870 but I sure like the dual magazine tubes with 14 rounds on the Kel-Tec below. 7 rounds of buck in one side and 7 slugs in the other:  Some Kel-Tec stuff gets spotty reviews but I hope they did this one right. MSRP is around $800.00 "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| One of Us |
Barrel looks a little short. | |||
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| one of us |
Actually its 18 inches. Bull pup design; the breech is under the cheekrest and it ejects out the bottom. There's a selector somewhere in the back to switch magazines. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| One of Us |
I like it. Not very innocuous, but I like it! 12 rounds of 3", or 16 rounds of the 2" mini's .... | |||
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one of us |
not all semi autos are gas operated, there are some recoil operated semi autos | |||
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one of us |
I now keep a loaded (1 in the chamber, 4 in the magazine, #4 buckshot) Remington 870 12 gauge behind my headboard. I bought it at a pawnshop for $120. It is an early version but is like new with uncheckered walnut stock, plain barrel, which I cut down to 21". Helluva quail/pheasant gun too.  NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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One of Us |
Eland Slayer...I agree pretty much entirely with you. But I must make this comment regards a statement Peter posted. I used to shoot both trap and skeet with my friend Don Kreycik (SP?). He was a veterinarian who also was the Nebraska all-gauge skeet champion and an almost equally skilled trap shooter. Don always told me (and I found the same based on my own shooting) that skeet is far easier once you have shot it enough to commit the angles to muscle memory. The birds always fly at the same angles and the same speeds in skeet except on very windy days. So, Don used to demo just what that can mean to a clay bird shooter by shooting skeet from the hip. He could easily still break 50 straight that way because he knew exactly what angle the birds at each station would fly at.. Trap, though easier to start with, is tougher in the long run because the shooter never knows what angle the bird will be flying at when he yells "pull"! As I see the relevance to this thread, home defense is more like trap shooting. You may have some clue where the baddie is coming from, but you never know for sure what he is going to do, or how. So, as I see it, skeet skill isn't really applicable for a comparison. Now trap sure isn't directly comparable either, but I think would be a better example...sporting clays would likely be the best, though. Still with a proper fitted gun, you don't use the sights on a trap gun either, you look at the BIRD. Your eye MAY pick up some reference to the end of the barrel, or not. But you don't aim. So handgun fit is probably the most important thing in up close self-defense too....No? As to self defense shotgun, I think I might like to try practicing a lot with a Stryker 12 gauge with a 14" barrel. It might turn out to be worth the tax stamp. Likely not, but it MIGHT. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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| one of us |
DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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| One of Us |
Looks alot like mine! Add a four round side saddle...still quick to swing w/a few extra rounds. Saw a show the other night where a "pistol light" was mounted to an AR. I've seen, but can't remember where, a shotgun forend w/a rail section towards the muzzle. Think about it for my duty 870, if I can find the parts. How does everyone think the light would hold up? Robert If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802 | |||
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| one of us |
What do you guys think is the appropriate shot size for a "house" shotgun, or does it matter much? As I mentioned, I selected #4 buck, but have others too. NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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| One of Us |
Found the foreend GG&G makes it...$90.00 ouch! 00 buck for me...at home and work FLA3006 I see you are from around here...look into one of Brian Hoffner's classes. PM for more if you are interested. Robert If we can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people, under the pretense of taking care of them, they must become happy. Thomas Jefferson, 1802 | |||
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One of Us |
I'm not a big fan of Kel-Tec.....but that is a VERY interesting shotgun. _______________________________________________________ Hunt Report - South Africa 2022 Wade Abadie - Wild Shot Photography Website | Facebook | Instagram | |||
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| one of us |
In a house I don't think there's any penalty for small shot. I have no fears with #4 bird shot in mine. My house is so tiny and the rooms small enough that even the wad will get full penetration. Nice gun, Forrest. I have the matching 760 rifle with identical stock. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| One of Us |
Here's the two question you should ask. What's the longest shot you may have to take, and how close are you neighbors. When I lived in an appartment, longest shot 12 feet, with me neighbors on the other side of the wall, I kept it loaded with dove loads. Now that a live in a nice sized house, longest shot 30 feet, and the neighbors are not as close, #4 buck has it's place in the magazine. On the Ranch, it was always 00 or 000 buck with slugs at the ready. There are three examples that can help you assess your situation, and make the call. | |||
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| One of Us |
Out here on the ranch I run 2 rounds of 71/2s followed by 4 00buck Model 12 21 in barrel sure fire in a barrel clamp and six rounds in a buttstock keeper. Soon as I get my rear in gear and find a replacement buttstock it will get cut down to 12.5 LOP SSR | |||
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| one of us |
My favorite "Indoor" shotgun is a Remington 870 with an 18" barrel, with a magazine extention. For a while I used a 20" 870 at work, when making house calls, and it was OK, I just like the 18" better. I keep some No4 Buck around for varmints, but for personal defense I like at least No1 Buck. All in all Single O is hard to beat, especially if you will be shooting out doors at a distance. It has the best of the three P's, Pattern, Penetration and Punch. Now, in my, and the wifes indoor 870, We use Remington Low Recoil OO Buck, as I was gifted a case of it for some teaching I did a while back. DOUBLE RIFLE SHOOTERS SOCIETY | |||
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| one of us |
Years ago, I had an 870 "riot" gun with 18" barrel. It had tremendous muzzle blast, especially with magnum loads, with a huge ball of fire at night. Somewhere I read that shotgun shells burn all their powder at 21", so I cut my current barrel to 21". Not really a significant difference probably. NRA Life Member, Band of Bubbas Charter Member, PGCA, DRSS. Shoot & hunt with vintage classics. | |||
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