I am sure this argument has been going on since the first two guys picked up two different size rocks and started arguing the merits of big/slow vs small/fast and I am sure it will continue. A while back I saw a compilation of people shooting people data in which the author found, to his surprise, that the least effective caliber (think it was the .22 short) still had something like a 57% chance of stopping the fight on the first shot. The little bit of training I have had said to keep shooting until the threat ceased to be a threat, 1 shot, 2 shots, 10 or whatever. The point is you got to have a gun, and you got to know hot to use it, and you have to have enough ammo to get the job done.
C.G.B.

quote:

Originally posted by cgbach:
I am sure this argument has been going on since the first two guys picked up two different size rocks and started arguing the merits of big/slow vs small/fast and I am sure it will continue. A while back I saw a compilation of people shooting people data in which the author found, to his surprise, that the least effective caliber (think it was the .22 short) still had something like a 57% chance of stopping the fight on the first shot. The little bit of training I have had said to keep shooting until the threat ceased to be a threat, 1 shot, 2 shots, 10 or whatever. The point is you got to have a gun, and you got to know hot to use it, and you have to have enough ammo to get the job done.
C.G.B.

CGB, you make too much sense!

quote:

Originally posted by DLS:

quote:

Originally posted by cgbach:
I am sure this argument has been going on since the first two guys picked up two different size rocks and started arguing the merits of big/slow vs small/fast and I am sure it will continue. A while back I saw a compilation of people shooting people data in which the author found, to his surprise, that the least effective caliber (think it was the .22 short) still had something like a 57% chance of stopping the fight on the first shot. The little bit of training I have had said to keep shooting until the threat ceased to be a threat, 1 shot, 2 shots, 10 or whatever. The point is you got to have a gun, and you got to know hot to use it, and you have to have enough ammo to get the job done.
C.G.B.

CGB, you make too much sense!

Except for this part

quote:

least effective caliber (think it was the .22 short) still had something like a 57% chance of stopping the fight on the first shot.

Wow, lots of good discussion!
I carry both and I am a firm believer in shooting something until it stops moving...then shoot it again.
With all the great bullet selections I do not think you can wrong with either as long as you choose a good self defense load. Be it a XPB, HST, Gold Dot, etc. Hit where you are aiming and let the bullet do its thing...again and again.

I carry a Springfield 1911 9mm with 127gr +P+ Rangers and a Springfield XD 45 with Corbon 185gr DPX. Both are known killers and I can hit minute of cactus with each if one decides to attack .

Perry

perry But that makes to much sense.

quote:

Originally posted by perry:
Wow, lots of good discussion!
I carry both and I am a firm believer in shooting something until it stops moving...then shoot it again.
With all the great bullet selections I do not think you can wrong with either as long as you choose a good self defense load. Be it a XPB, HST, Gold Dot, etc. Hit where you are aiming and let the bullet do its thing...again and again.

I carry a Springfield 1911 9mm with 127gr +P+ Rangers and a Springfield XD 45 with Corbon 185gr DPX. Both are known killers and I can hit minute of cactus with each if one decides to attack .

Perry

Absolutely Correct! Shoot 'em till they fall down. If they attempt to fight from the floor, shoot 'em again. If they attempt to get up, shoot 'em again. If you run out of ammo, reload, and be prepared to shoot 'em again.

A handgun is a second best weapon. We choose it because it is highy portable. If I knew I was going to walk into a gun fight, I wouldn't carry anything less than a 12 guage autoloader with an 8 round magazine tube.

quote:

Originally posted by cgbach:
I am sure this argument has been going on since the first two guys picked up two different size rocks and started arguing the merits of big/slow vs small/fast and I am sure it will continue.

remember the scene in braveheart where mel gibson and the big fella actually had this one out? The 9mm rock won!

Personally, I cant stand the 9mm, but its just because. I like 40 and 45. People always ask me what to carry and i always tell them they should carry what they can shoot well reliably and will carry all the time. A 50ae would stop a lot of critters, but i wouldn't carry an 8" Desert Eagle in my back pocket. If a woman can shoot the .38 and hit the target 10 of 10 times she is better off than a 45 that scares her. Some men can't handle 45 either. I like it, but that don't make it right for everyone.

I was raised being taught proper placement, lots of times with the largest cal with which you are constantly proficient.

So I carry a .45ACP 230 gr.

My wife who is much smaller at 5'3 carrys to the same rule.

She uses a much smaller 180 gr. 10 MM S& W mod. 1076.

I carry Hornady XTP, 230gr +P's in my Glock 36. My daughter carries Speer Gold Dots in her .357 Sig.

Two totally different ways of getting from here to there, but we both have faith in what we carry.

9mm has been criticized as being an "overpenetrator," but that would be w/ FMJ ammo. JHP solves a lot of those problems. 115 gr. bullet in 9mm has plenty of velocity for expansion.

45 ACP in 230 gr. is twice as heavy and "already expanded." Nearly like being shot w/ a 9mm in the same wound channel twice. Larger diameter, heavier bullet, but lacking the velocity of the 9mm, still plenty of stopping power.

9mm was replaced by police departments because it was bouncing off streamlined windshields. Departments went to 40 S&W, which is a 45 ACP wannabe.

I have a 9mm I use for carry, on occasion. But if I'm doing outdoor recreation and open carry, it's 45 ACP or 44 mag. Because Grandma taught me good: "Too much is always more than enough."

I just trust the .45.
My Dad being in the Air Force was issued one and it was the first pistol I shot.
Yea I was distracted by the Beretta 92 Hi Capacity Wonder 9 and even purchased one after
watching Lethal Weapon.
I sold it about 6 months later and went back to
the .45.
If I ever buy another non .45 it will be the
FN 5.7x28mm because among other things the BRADY people HATE HATE HATE IT

It's really sad to see this discussed anywhere, but particularly on AR, where other parts of the web site have so much useful information on the subject. It certainly doesn't hurt to say that ME is BS, because it is (study the extremes), but real answers are right here, mostly on the African hunting forum. The bullet has to get through to an important part of the body (important to you, like the brain or the upper spine, not important to the perp, like the penis) and damage it so that it stops working and the perp becomes nonfunctional. This requires mainly penetration and pretty precise shot placement. Proper bullet shape and diameter certainly can make a contribution. Anecdotal evidence is a little tricky, because many humans who have been shot stop agression for reasons not related to destruction of important body parts. It undoubtedly happens, but it's not very easy to get reliable statistical results correlating much of anything to this phenomenon. M&S tried, in my opinion honestly, but they certainly blew it.

I hesitate to state a conclusion, but if someone really wants to hear mine, it is that one should aim for the spine (through the chest) or the brain, shoot repeatedly, and pray.

I think that fact that most police forces and criminals favor the 9mm skews the results to one side. The advent of more effective ammo may be more effective but it needs to be compared using more scientific data and not street statistics.

Most PD moved away from the 9mm years ago and went w/the 40 S&W...fits in the same size frame as a 9, fits smaller hands better...blah,blah, blah.
I'll stick w/my 1911 45ACP for a lot of reason...one of which is the psycholigical factor of a "cocked and locked" pistol, add custom grips ..bad guys don't like that! Can't remember who did the study to find that out but I remember reading it year ago.

quote:

add custom grips ..bad guys don't like that! Can't remember who did the study to find that out but I remember reading it year ago.

I dunno, if a bad guy has time to examine my grips, he's either surrendered, retreating, or shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Gatogordo:

quote:

add custom grips ..bad guys don't like that! Can't remember who did the study to find that out but I remember reading it year ago.

I dunno, if a bad guy has time to examine my grips, he's either surrendered, retreating, or shot.

Yeah, and on a CCW if he has time to look, it's because he's made you take off your clothes.

My carry options run from 32 ACP, 38, 357, 45, 44 mag. I have a Makarov and a CZ 52 (7.62 Tokarov), but I don't carry them for the most part.

Sometimes it's a scoped 30-06, AK, or 12 gauge.

Defense options are like shoes.

I'm refering to uniformed police carry

RVL III

Is correct. There was a study done, maybe by the FBI, I cannot remmember, that interviewed inmates that were in prision for killing and assaulting Police Officers.

Some of the things that helped them decide if they should resist or attack an officer was the look of his gun. If he had a different gun than the standard issue gun, Custom grips, a different holster, and what medals he had on his uniform, all made a difference.

The Study plainly showed that criminals were a lot more afraid of an Officer if he looked like he was a "gun savy shooter".

Hard to argue w/ an AK or AR slung over the shoulder.

I've owned several 9m/m's and one day I shot one of my reloads(full case of unique/115gr.HP Hornady or Sierra,don't remember) into the sidewall of a 10 ply truck tire, the bullet was perfectly mushroomed and near the size of a nickle,still have the bullet, I was impressed.

Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
I've owned several 9m/m's and one day I shot one of my reloads(full case of unique/115gr.HP Hornady or Sierra,don't remember) into the sidewall of a 10 ply truck tire, the bullet was perfectly mushroomed and near the size of a nickle,still have the bullet, I was impressed.

Stepchild

Did the tire go flat?

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
I've owned several 9m/m's and one day I shot one of my reloads(full case of unique/115gr.HP Hornady or Sierra,don't remember) into the sidewall of a 10 ply truck tire, the bullet was perfectly mushroomed and near the size of a nickle,still have the bullet, I was impressed.

Stepchild

Penetration, did it penetrate?

My biggest concern about the 9mm compared to the .45acp is velocity. The 9mm has considerably higher velocity with a smaller cross section, this makes the chance of a shot going through your target and hitting someone behind them much greater. Legally, once that bullet leaves the gun you are responsible for it until it stops so if you kill the bad guy you can still be sued or even charged with manslaughter if the same bullet hits someone else too. For this reason if I want a smaller gun than my .45 I prefer the .380 or even the 9mm Makarov.

quote:

Originally posted by Skipper488:
My biggest concern about the 9mm compared to the .45acp is velocity. The 9mm has considerably higher velocity with a smaller cross section, this makes the chance of a shot going through your target and hitting someone behind them much greater. Legally, once that bullet leaves the gun you are responsible for it until it stops so if you kill the bad guy you can still be sued or even charged with manslaughter if the same bullet hits someone else too. For this reason if I want a smaller gun than my .45 I prefer the .380 or even the 9mm Makarov.

What about misses? The concern of shooting "through" the bad guy and hitting an innicent is HIGHLY improbable. No one has ever been charged with a crime for hitting an innocent with an erant shot when confronting a dealy threat. One can and most probably will be held accountable for his miss-placed bullet in Civil court, not criminal Court

That's what practice is for. At fifteen yards I can place all 9 from my .45 in a three inch group free hand. Even accounting for adrenaline I should be able to confine my shots to the bad guys chest from any range I would consider firing at.

Custom grips ?? When I met Jim Cirillo [winner in 17 separate shootouts ,many as NYPD Stake out Squad] He had tape over cracked factory grips !I asked about that .He laughed and said BGs really do look at the gun and they're less likely to mess with a cop who has a customized gun. They were not impressed when they looked at his ,but his had blown away a few BGs !

quote:

Originally posted by Skipper488:
That's what practice is for. At fifteen yards I can place all 9 from my .45 in a three inch group free hand. Even accounting for adrenaline I should be able to confine my shots to the bad guys chest from any range I would consider firing at.

Range targets don't move, take cover and shoot back the way "Bad Guys" do. It's a little harder when the sh!t hits the fan

Glaser safety slugs will cut penetration in half if you're concerned about over penetration and the size of the wound channel is awesome.

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
Glaser safety slugs will cut penetration in half if you're concerned about over penetration and the size of the wound channel is awesome.

I am always concerned about penetration with self defense type handgun rounds. I am concerned about getting enough pentration to save my behind should the need arise. Not enough penetration and you are in trouble, that is for sure and for certain

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
Glaser safety slugs will cut penetration in half if you're concerned about over penetration and the size of the wound channel is awesome.

I am always concerned about penetration with self defense type handgun rounds. I am concerned about getting enough pentration to save my behind should the need arise. Too little and you are in trouble, that is for sure and for certain

Penetration is the most important factor. Without penetration, nothing else is important except accurracy.

Between the eyes, or dead center chest, a 9mm FMJ or better will work.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by swampshooter:
Glaser safety slugs will cut penetration in half if you're concerned about over penetration and the size of the wound channel is awesome.

I am always concerned about penetration with self defense type handgun rounds. I am concerned about getting enough pentration to save my behind should the need arise. Not enough penetration and you are in trouble, that is for sure and for certain

I have to agree with this statement completely. Can't hurt what you can't reach -- need enough penetration.

I watch a lot of new shooters at our gun club, and old shooters who only shoot occasionally, and my thoroughly unscientific findings are that generally they shoot a 9mm more accurately than a 45. Good instructional training costs money, practice/training shooting a 45 a lot costs money (more than a 9mm in any case). My conclusion is that the truly committed pay for instruction, shoot and practice often enough to shoot a 45 well. So, if you are willing to train regularly (time and money), get a 45. And I don't mean shooting at paper targets twice a year. Go to Gunsite, or Thunder Ranch or another good defensive shooting school, and get involved in IDPA or IPSC, something that makes you move, involves different shooting scenarios and teaches you to manage your weapon and your ammunition. You might even become an effective weapon yourself, and all of sudden the caliber debate seems less important.

quote:

Originally posted by Wink:
I watch a lot of new shooters at our gun club, and old shooters who only shoot occasionally, and my thoroughly unscientific findings are that generally they shoot a 9mm more accurately than a 45. Good instructional training costs money, practice/training shooting a 45 a lot costs money (more than a 9mm in any case). My conclusion is that the truly committed pay for instruction, shoot and practice often enough to shoot a 45 well. So, if you are willing to train regularly (time and money), get a 45. And I don't mean shooting at paper targets twice a year. Go to Gunsite, or Thunder Ranch or another good defensive shooting school, and get involved in IDPA or IPSC, something that makes you move, involves different shooting scenarios and teaches you to manage your weapon and your ammunition. You might even become an effective weapon yourself, and all of sudden the caliber debate seems less important.

Wink, I think this applies no matter what you are shooting.

Maybe the cops with the 9mm's are aiming more because they realize they dont have as much stopping power as a 45 and therefore placing more deadly shots to make up for the lack of stopping power of the 9mm. ???

quote:

anyone that believes light and fast is better is lacking in experience and acctual filed experience.

tsk tsk ... you know better than this ...

9mm can go 1700+ fps with faster cycle times, more mag capacity, smaller lighter platform.

Within limits lighter faster is always more lethal than heavier slower. This has been beat to death on the BB forum for anyone who has a few days to kill reading.

apples to oranges, I say. would you ask to be shot twice with either caliber? I don't think anyone would volunteer to be shot with any.

my logic behind carrying a 9mm is that tons of people use 380's as a carry gun all the time, and as far as I know the 9mm has twice the energy of the 380, so why not?
I know it isn't very logical, but who can argue with $12 boxes of practice ammo?

I suspect that the whole controversy has more to do with the shooter rather then the caliber.
I would not go up against a fellow who can hit a thrown dime with a 22 rim fire 98% of the time.

jim

So why haven't some other basically 9mm cartridge that are hotter caught on if the 9mm is so good? I'm talking about the 38 Super and 357 Sig.

9 win mag was the hottest 9 that I know of. Like all things marketing decides what succeeds more so than viability.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
9 win mag was the hottest 9 that I know of. Like all things marketing decides what succeeds more so than viability.

So then....people buy into that the big 45 is better?