quote:

Originally posted by impala#03:
Lane,

Your young friend said technology has followed the 9mm, does he think technology left out the 45? Whatever the 9mm has also followed the 45 as far as bullet design and construction. Bullets now are the best we have ever had in all of firearms history. Its all good, pick your posion.

Amen, bro. I echo the same to people who preach the "with modern bullets" theory.

If one likes to carry a 9mm, carry a 9mm. If one likes a .45, carry a .45. But don't make excuses for what you carry by making bullet technology as the reason for your choice.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:

quote:

Originally posted by PaulS:

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:

9mm, 125s at 1200 fps.
.38, 125s at 950 fps.

I'm not buying it.

In the past 9mm didn't expand as reliably as larger bullets but that is solved now. Currently, expect a premium 9mm to expand to the low .6X" range, .40 to the high .6X" range and .45 in the .7X" range or sometimes a little bigger. Given the poor penetration and significant weight of the .45, all of my pistols are 9 or 10mm.

You aren't using the 38 Spl. +P velocity.
Find the +P velocity and then compare.

That is the velocity of a Gold Dot, like I have currently in my handgun at home.

But the .38 Special "can" be loaded much hotter for handguns that can handle it.

Can be, sure. In that sort of load it becomes the equal of a 9mm, though you have only 1/3 as many of them and a slow reload.

quote:

Whatever the 9mm has also followed the 45 as far as bullet design and construction.

I'd dispute that, historically, it did. Certainly in the smaller calibres. Westley's All Range being probably the first expanding self-loading pistol bullet.

Westley Richards 'All Range Destructive Bullet'.

quote:

Originally posted by enfieldspares:

quote:

Whatever the 9mm has also followed the 45 as far as bullet design and construction.

I'd dispute that, historically, it did. Certainly in the smaller calibres. Westley's All Range being probably the first expanding self-loading pistol bullet.

Westley Richards 'All Range Destructive Bullet'.

I agree it just we have better testing protocols and more media to cover it. Now days.

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:

quote:

Originally posted by PaulS:

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:

9mm, 125s at 1200 fps.
.38, 125s at 950 fps.

I'm not buying it.

In the past 9mm didn't expand as reliably as larger bullets but that is solved now. Currently, expect a premium 9mm to expand to the low .6X" range, .40 to the high .6X" range and .45 in the .7X" range or sometimes a little bigger. Given the poor penetration and significant weight of the .45, all of my pistols are 9 or 10mm.

You aren't using the 38 Spl. +P velocity.
Find the +P velocity and then compare.

That is the velocity of a Gold Dot, like I have currently in my handgun at home.

But the .38 Special "can" be loaded much hotter for handguns that can handle it.

Can be, sure. In that sort of load it becomes the equal of a 9mm, though you have only 1/3 as many of them and a slow reload.

No...it exceeds 9mm Luger and approaches .357 mag. Case capacity always trumps. Besides...if I shoot someone with my .45 acp...I only intend to shoot them once.

Lane-

If you ever have to shoot someone, please, please, shoot them at least twice (double tap) and preferably three times (mozambique). Not everyone dies/surrenders from a single gunshot, not even from a .45ACP. Oh, and some bad guys now wear body armor, hence the mozambique. Just ask your Texas Ranger friends.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
Lane-

If you ever have to shoot someone, please, please, shoot them at least twice (double tap) and preferably three times (mozambique). Not everyone dies/surrenders from a single gunshot, not even from a .45ACP. Oh, and some bad guys now wear body armor, hence the mozambique. Just ask your Texas Ranger friends.

Hi Mike,
I know you speak for experience and training. I guess my point was that the .45 is more likely to incapacitate with a single shot than a 9.

Testing in the days before fancy bullets woodchucks with non-immediate death hits --9mm, they RAN back to their hole .45acp they WALKED back to their hole !
Each type of round is improved with modern bullets of JHP or all copper Barnes type .I base my comments on animals up to 250 lbs deer , no computer or non-live targets!!

Just an " FYI " on Bullet Technology.

Cutting Edge, new pistol bullet testing posted.

Tested 9mm-90 gr @ 1,350 fps, .40-120 gr @ 1,200 fps, and the .45-150 gr @ 1,200 fps.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/284

For those that think the 9mm is equal to the 45 ACP you may also be interested in some ocean front property for sale in Utah

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
For those that think the 9mm is equal to the 45 ACP you may also be interested in some ocean front property for sale in Utah

9mm causes marginally less tissue destruction, but I can carry twice as much on me and fire twice as much with the same training budget.

quote:

Originally posted by tiggertate:
Its the Hague Convention that addressed bullets but they have since allowed hollow point rifle ammo. I wonder if it will ever translate to pistol ammo and more importantly, who's watching, anyway?

Tigger;
The way the Hague Convention is written if the hollow point is an artifact of manufacturering it's legal, think Sierra Match Kings. If the bullet is specifically designed to be a hollow point, think Speer hollow point spitzer, it's illegal.

Jim

A choice between the 9mm and the 45ACP with modern loadings and modern bullets will leave the 9mm in the dust. Even with a compact 45 (half the number of cartridges of the 9mm) the 45 will be far more devastating with comparable shot placement.

Last night I returned from a class that was almost entirely (one exception ) LE F.I.'s.

The Lead Instr announced that the FBI recently released their most recent ballistic gellatin testing that showed the 9MM 147 Gr. bonded bullet, I beleive Winchester Range T, won the testing.

The consensus in the class was that FBI testing is taken with a grain of salt at their results tend to show the outcome they want.

The 147 Gr likely is the best in the MP5, where the longer barrel gives a longer burn time that this projectile needs to acheive the velocity needed to get the desired penetration. 50% of the projectiles did not expand.

Most felt that the .40 S.W., or .45 ACP were the best.

It was mentioned that there were only 2 Depts that came to mind that still issue the 9MM, NYPD G19 and I beleive the other was the Capitol Hill Police issuing G17.

The confidence that I had in the 9MM being just fine has been somewhat diminished after the above enlightenment. I will be shooting more .45 going forward. Why bet on something that is less sure, than more sure...

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
For those that think the 9mm is equal to the 45 ACP you may also be interested in some ocean front property for sale in Utah

9mm causes marginally less tissue destruction, but I can carry twice as much on me and fire twice as much with the same training budget.

While I have never shot a 2 legged varmint I have shot many 4 legged ones and I know from first hand experience that a 45 properly loaded is more decisive than a 9mm. Therefor I carry a 45 and do not feel under armed because of magazine capacity. If I ever do then I will purchase a 14 shot double stack in 45 ACP

FBI testing is generally well regarded. You're welcome to go to Lightfighter.net or AR15.com to see extensive write ups on various modern bullets and testing protocols.

Everything I've shot with my 9mm has died. I have no complaints. Meanwhile .45 bounces off of car doors.

Ryan;

Which 9mmm and which 45?

Are you saying that a 9mm ball will penetrate a car door while a 45 JHP won't?

Apples and apples or apples and mangoes?

FBI protocols are lab tests to compare bullets to the same arbitrary media, not necessarily real barriers or representative of what is encountered in combat.

True, a "good" bullet based on FBI barriers compared to a "bad" bullet based on those same standards is likely to be a "better" choice for anyone, LE or citizen, but I would not want you to bet that a garden variety 45 (or 22 LR) won't get you behind your car door!

In handguns, everything is a compromise. If it weren't they'd be called rifles.

Are car doors considered cover?

Car doors are concealment but not cover. You need to broadside the car and take position behind the engine/front tire, thereby putting maximum metal between you and the threat.

The door may become cover if you have an extra vest to drape over the windowsill, but I'm not crazy about that idea.

BTW, an M1 Carbine loaded with 90gr bullets will make Swiss cheese out of vehicle.

9mm 127+P+ will sail through a 2A vest and the door behind it. 45 may or may not get through the door. This is the conclusion of two professional auto ballistics labs I have attended. FMJ or JHP didn't much matter.

I do subscribe to the idea that pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles. That's why I carry a 9mm and keep an AR close at hand.

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
9mm 127+P+ will sail through a 2A vest and the door behind it. 45 may or may not get through the door. This is the conclusion of two professional auto ballistics labs I have attended. FMJ or JHP didn't much matter.

I do subscribe to the idea that pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles. That's why I carry a 9mm and keep an AR close at hand.

I have purchased enough F-150 truck doors Fromm the junk yards and shot them enough to know that if the correct bullet and load is used in the 45 ACP they will sail through the car doors. In my experience whoever made that statement is full of crap

My "cover" question was rhetorical, I know that no automotive sheet metal is cover and often barely concealment (are you concealed if they know you are behind it?).

The point of the issue is "would anyone want to behind the door when a 45 is being fired at it?"

Only an insane person would say "Okay", regardless of what ballistic vest they were wearing.....

That said, and having been in a few scrapes where bullets (Aslt rifle mostly) were perforating the vehicle (stock SUV, unarmored HMMWVs), I know that vehicle bullet strikes are not necessarily hits....

Besides, the comparison of bullet caliber and tech improvements probably applies more to self-defense situations than tactical LE or mil stuff.

JHPs of a fighting caliber, followed by hard ball is a hard act to follow.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
9mm 127+P+ will sail through a 2A vest and the door behind it. 45 may or may not get through the door. This is the conclusion of two professional auto ballistics labs I have attended. FMJ or JHP didn't much matter.

I do subscribe to the idea that pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles. That's why I carry a 9mm and keep an AR close at hand.

I have purchased enough F-150 truck doors Fromm the junk yards and shot them enough to know that if the correct bullet and load is used in the 45 ACP they will sail through the car doors. In my experience whoever made that statement is full of crap

Only one model of door? No wonder.

I've seen them bounce, generally from angles.

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
9mm 127+P+ will sail through a 2A vest and the door behind it. 45 may or may not get through the door. This is the conclusion of two professional auto ballistics labs I have attended. FMJ or JHP didn't much matter.

I do subscribe to the idea that pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles. That's why I carry a 9mm and keep an AR close at hand.

I have purchased enough F-150 truck doors Fromm the junk yards and shot them enough to know that if the correct bullet and load is used in the 45 ACP they will sail through the car doors. In my experience whoever made that statement is full of crap

Only one model of door? No wonder.

I've seen them bounce, generally from angles.

I have a friend who owns a junk yard...I have shot countless .45 ACP rounds into cars...most of then from the 60's & 70's that were made of REAL metal.

With 230 gr FMJ .454 cal projectiles...Most of the time...not only do they shoot through one door...but they exit out the other side.

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
9mm 127+P+ will sail through a 2A vest and the door behind it. 45 may or may not get through the door. This is the conclusion of two professional auto ballistics labs I have attended. FMJ or JHP didn't much matter.

I do subscribe to the idea that pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles. That's why I carry a 9mm and keep an AR close at hand.

I have purchased enough F-150 truck doors Fromm the junk yards and shot them enough to know that if the correct bullet and load is used in the 45 ACP they will sail through the car doors. In my experience whoever made that statement is full of crap

Only one model of door? No wonder.

I've seen them bounce, generally from angles.

Doors are doors but I have shot more than one model. Here are a few pictures. There are internals that a lot of bullets will not shoot through










A 9mm is not my choice weapon and that comes from experience not something that I heard

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
9mm 127+P+ will sail through a 2A vest and the door behind it. 45 may or may not get through the door. This is the conclusion of two professional auto ballistics labs I have attended. FMJ or JHP didn't much matter.

I do subscribe to the idea that pistols are pistols and rifles are rifles. That's why I carry a 9mm and keep an AR close at hand.

I have purchased enough F-150 truck doors Fromm the junk yards and shot them enough to know that if the correct bullet and load is used in the 45 ACP they will sail through the car doors. In my experience whoever made that statement is full of crap

Only one model of door? No wonder.

I've seen them bounce, generally from angles.

I have a friend who owns a junk yard...I have shot countless .45 ACP rounds into cars...most of then from the 60's & 70's that were made of REAL metal.

With 230 gr FMJ .454 cal projectiles...Most of the time...not only do they shoot through one door...but they exit out the other side.

Exactly only some one with zero experience would claim other wise or someone that shoot excessively soft bullet. The Barnes 185 grain XPB bullet sail through car doors and the 255 grain hard cast at 960 FPS does so as well

We shot 200 rounds into cars. Ball, JHP, 5.56 and 7.62. Not fucking around either, it was professionally run by John Chapman. 45 did well through the glass, 9mm and 357 through the steel. For what it's worth rifles shoot straighter through a car body than through glass.

After the first demo I went home and bought a Glock 20.

Also, 230gr ball won't penetrate one of those green sheet steel covers that the PUD puts over electrical boxes all over the country. That was from 20 yards. Long story.

Ryan;

Not sure what the great concern is over whether this or that pistol (anemic, poor SD and BC) bullets won't do with aplomb. In reality, pistol bullets from fighting caliber handguns generally don't do anything well.

As many folks can attest, the value of a handgun is to buy enough time to get to a long gun.

If I was in LE, I would have to choose gun/ammo (rather, hope my dept chose well)to be adequate in the broad range of the spectrum. As a military guy, I would choose the issue rifle over a pistol or carbine, granting that officers usually are not seen with belt fed 762s...

My preference for private carry are 40 and 45 with premium JHPs and currently my 40s fill with 180 HSTs, my 45s with Hornady 230 XTP +p's or Crit duty 220s. And lots of practice.

Penetration of barriers, while important, is not the only consideration.

In any case, if a hit with a 9mm is achieved, the lions share of the equation is completed, if a miss with greater caliber is made, time is running out!

A conversation with a shooting cop friend of mine indicated his department switched back to 9mm full sized glocks or SDs due to the poor academic performance on the range with issue 40s and optional 45s. Greater hit probability trumps most everything else....

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
We shot 200 rounds into cars. Ball, JHP, 5.56 and 7.62. Not fucking around either, it was professionally run by John Chapman. 45 did well through the glass, 9mm and 357 through the steel. For what it's worth rifles shoot straighter through a car body than through glass.

After the first demo I went home and bought a Glock 20.

Also, 230gr ball won't penetrate one of those green sheet steel covers that the PUD puts over electrical boxes all over the country. That was from 20 yards. Long story.

Y'all must be shooting some anemic .45 ACP ammo is all I got to say.

Like telling us how much better a 9mm Luger is than a .38 Special when they are essentially the same ballistically with comparable factory loads. But with handloads and the right pistol...a .38 Special can approach .357 mag vel because it has twice the case capacity of a 9. Thirty-8's were factory loaded weak due to all the old weak revolvers there were out there. Kind of like the story with .45-70's and why the .450 Marlin was produced when it really was no different.

This would be like telling a PH to carry a .375 H&H vs. a .458 WM to stop a buffalo charge...experience has proven the .458 is a stopper and a .375 is marginal except with precision and/or lucky hits.

In a gun fight you cannot miss fast enough to catch up.

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
9mm causes marginally less tissue destruction, but I can carry twice as much on me and fire twice as much with the same training budget.

HPMaster,

Excellent post. Many PDs are going back to 9mm because of issues with guns in .40, or cost, or problems qualifying officers on harder kicking guns. I'm inclined to believe that handguns are a poor substitute for a rifle so I carry a 9mm rather than pretend a handgun is something it is not.

Lane,

9mm +p gold dots: 124 at 1220
38 +P gold dots: 125 at 945

I don't care what you can handload it to, few people use hand loaded ammunition for self defense. If you want to play that game use numbers from 9mm major and remember that .357 is downloaded for good reason--at some point it becomes too much of a good thing.

The only .45 I shoot is 230s at 850 FPS.

SR4759,

I shoot well. I shoot a lot. When I do simunitions it's not unusual for the opfor to have five to eight paint marks on them.

quote:

9mm +p gold dots: 124 at 1220
38 +P gold dots: 125 at 945

I don't care what you can handload it to, few people use hand loaded ammunition for self defense. If you want to play that game use numbers from 9mm major and remember that .357 is downloaded for good reason--at some point it becomes too much of a good thing.

The point is that a .38 Special and a 9mm Luger are essentially ballastic twins with comparable loads. And...a .38 Special can exceed 9mm Luger velocities if loaded to capacity for a gun that can handle it.

Ammunition manufacturers will always be anemic with the .38 Special.

quote:

Originally posted by RyanB:
HPMaster,

Excellent post. Many PDs are going back to 9mm because of issues with guns in .40, or cost, or problems qualifying officers on harder kicking guns.
I'm inclined to believe that handguns are a poor substitute for a rifle so I carry a 9mm rather than pretend a handgun is something it is not.

Lane,

9mm +p gold dots: 124 at 1220
38 +P gold dots: 125 at 945

I don't care what you can handload it to, few people use hand loaded ammunition for self defense. If you want to play that game use numbers from 9mm major and remember that .357 is downloaded for good reason--at some point it becomes too much of a good thing.

The only .45 I shoot is 230s at 850 FPS.

SR4759,

I shoot well. I shoot a lot. When I do simunitions it's not unusual for the opfor to have five to eight paint marks on them.

IMHO: Most folks I know (Legal Carry: Civilian / Off Duty LEO / Retired LEO ), carry compact pistols for concealed carry / off duty, which are easier to control in a 9mm , than Hot + P .40 or + P .45 , in most cases.

Off duty Ofcr are only allowed to carry, a Dept approved Pistol(s), with Dept approved ammo.

The approved Pistol list, is normally a small selection of off the shelf "Factory Stock" models. No custom triggers, buffers, replacement springs allowed, due to potential lawsuits, for an altered or defective part.

The smarts ones, will opt to carry a compact model ( Back-up / off duty ), of their full sized primary duty pistol.

The Dept's approved ammo are whatever they consider " Safe & Sane ", which normally are, whatever the "FBI ", has tested for their own use (FBI $$$$ Testing Budget / Dept. Liability Issue's ). " NO HANDLOADS " allowed.

Many civilians will also carry ( Advised ) whatever the Major Law Enforcement Agency are using, in their backyards.

I personally carry a concealed " 9mm " or " .38/.357 ", extra ammo, & a good Knife, depending on my particular outdoor activities.

For obvious reasons, I expect comparable loads to e comparable. Please direct me to factory .38 ammunition to equal that Gold Dot loading. Yes it can be loaded to match, though you'll never obtain the effectiveness of an autoloader in a revolver.

In fairness, I prefer heavy bullets and the two calibers are a lot closer if you compare 147s and 158s.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

9mm +p gold dots: 124 at 1220
38 +P gold dots: 125 at 945

I don't care what you can handload it to, few people use hand loaded ammunition for self defense. If you want to play that game use numbers from 9mm major and remember that .357 is downloaded for good reason--at some point it becomes too much of a good thing.

The point is that a .38 Special and a 9mm Luger are essentially ballastic twins with comparable loads. And...a .38 Special can exceed 9mm Luger velocities if loaded to capacity for a gun that can handle it.

Ammunition manufacturers will always be anemic with the .38 Special.

Excellent post PAPI.

All things being equal a larger handgun is necessary for controlling a larger round and the weaker the shooter the more dramatic the difference.

Carrying FBI recommended ammunition or what is used locally by the police isn't a bad idea.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Zero:
Last night I returned from a class that was almost entirely (one exception ) LE F.I.'s….

The Lead Instr announced that the FBI recently released their most recent ballistic gellatin testing that showed the 9MM 147 Gr. bonded bullet, I beleive Winchester Range T, won the testing…..


The 147 Gr likely is the best in the MP5, where the longer barrel gives a longer burn time that this projectile needs to acheive the velocity needed to get the desired penetration …."

.

Thanks for the info.

I currently carry the " 9mm 147 grn " in my pistols, they should work great,with my " Marlin Camp 9, Semi-Auto Carbine ".

9mm 147 grn
http://winchesterle.com/Produc...s/Pages/default.aspx

9mm 147 grn
http://www.federalpremium.com/.../handgun.aspx?id=394

quote:

Greater hit probability trumps most everything else….- HPMaster

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3vn3hgWxUhE

Extracted from page 284, Terminal Bullet Performance thread:
http://forums.accuratereloadin...3/m/2861098911/p/284

quote:

Originally posted by Seasons44:
I been getting my loads together and will be putting some stuff together in the coming days. Got an email from Ken the other day and did some testing through PhD bullets.....

Gents-

Yesterday afternoon, I tested 3 of our PHDs – Personal Home Defense lead-free copper pistol bullets- by shooting through 4 layers of heavy denim, to see if the HPs would clog and not expand.

Tested 9mm-90 gr @ 1,350 fps, .40-120 gr @ 1,200 fps, and the .45-150 gr @ 1,200 fps.

Red is 9mm, the small circles identify the blades (one exited the side), with the large circle showing where the Blunt Trauma Base penetrated to. Blue is the .45-150. The .40-120 gave identical performance.

The recovered bullets look the same as the attached photos (# 20 and 98), where the bullets were water tested. However in photo 06 (.40-120 gr) note the addition of denim material which was “punch cut” out, and carried through the main wound channel, remaining stuck to the Blunt Trauma Base™.

After first traveling through 4 layers of heavy denim, the PHDs gave the same penetration and blade spread that we had seen in “bare” gel, with the bases still driving 15 ~ 16” deep.

So… you do not have to ask the bad guy to take his jacket and shirt off first…

[URL= ] [/URL]

Now with the 40 and 45 you can have both…

The 9×19mm Parabellum (abbreviated 9mm, 9mmP, 9×19mm or 9×19) cartridge was designed by Georg Luger and introduced in 1902 by the German weapons manufacturer

The .45 ACP (11.43×23mm) (Automatic Colt Pistol), also known as the .45 Auto by C.I.P. or 45 Auto by SAAMI, is a cartridge designed by John Browning in 1904, for use in his prototype Colt semi-automatic

Should it not be good ole 9mm vs new up start 45

One thing that many modern, and not just American, gun commentators are poor on is historical context.

But the above post about the era of the 9mm Parabellum and the .45" ACP is important and its context is often overlooked in terms of the assumed designed role of the round.

The 9mm Parabellum dates form a period where the next wars that the Germans thought that they would mainly fight would be against the French of the Russians. Especially the French.

So it can be assumed, although this is sometimes unwise to do so, that one of the assumed designed roles of the 9mm Parabellum would be to use in cavalry versus cavalry engagements against French cavalry protected with steel cuirasses.

Indeed most European nations pistols from the turn of the 20th Century all seem to strive for penetration, penetration, penetration. The Austro-Hungarian 9mm Steyr for example. So velocity is a major desire. Everybody is looking at 100 to 120 grains and at at least 900fps or greater velocity.

Whereas Britain and the USA seem to assume that their next wars would be against "savage" opponents, wearing no armour, but of great physical courage and determined to close quarters combat.

So these two powers seem to strive for stopping power, stopping power, stopping power hence the retention, or re-adoption, of nominal .45" calibre weapons with heavy bullets. With velocity being not really considered as important as against bullet cross sectional area and bullet weight.

Thus the altering of the .45" ACP specification from a 200 grain bullet at 900fps to a 230 gain bullet at 830fps.

So obviously the 9mm Parabellum will be a good penetrator of metal as it was, we can assume, designed with that background need in mind (although a cuirass and not a car door) from the outset.

I own many revolvers and pistols in many different calibers. I have or do carry at least one of them on a daily basic.

I carry many of them on the job as a LEO for over 3 decades I never felt under gunned with any of them.

I always carry the best ammo that I have determined was proper at the time. I was on my last departments(500man) fire arms committee so had some say in what ammo we carried.

My first dept didn't have any regulations on what you carried gave me great lee way in trying out many different ones.

I came to the conclusion that a good reliable hand gun firing a good bullet at decent vel is what one needs. Being some what accurate is a big help being high accurate was not needed nice but not needed.

9mm 357 40 41 44 45 heck they all well work saying one is a lot better then the other is BS.

One can find great stops with the all and one can find great failures with them all.

Carry what you want I am just glad I can own carry and use lots of different guns and ammo with very few restrictions in my state and many others.

Unlike a lot of the world who has their guns and ammo limited.

What I have and carry would most likely give the police in enfeildspares area multiple heart attacks and have armored vehicle rolling down the street. Heck and there are people with a heck of a lot more then me.

They called the bomb squad out to pickup one round of 22rf. One could paralyze the whole city by just spreading and dropping one carton of 22s around. Let alone a few guns to go with them.

Being my areas armorer I was task with disposing of all the old ammo turned in by troopers who retire. Being the good employee I was I made sure it was disposed of properly. I guess over the years I disposed of thousands of rounds down range and no one except paper targets got hurt.

I think I'll go clean some of my guns I haven't seen in awhile. Or step out the basement door and do some low light shooting

It's still a 1/2" hole vs. a 1/3" hole. I'll take the 1/2' hole.