quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
When did .452 become .5 the legend of the 45 just keeps getting bigger

Jim
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I own many revolvers and pistols in many different calibers. I have or do carry at least one of them on a daily basic.

I carry many of them on the job as a LEO for over 3 decades I never felt under gunned with any of them.

I always carry the best ammo that I have determined was proper at the time. I was on my last departments(500man) fire arms committee so had some say in what ammo we carried.

My first dept didn't have any regulations on what you carried gave me great lee way in trying out many different ones.

I came to the conclusion that a good reliable hand gun firing a good bullet at decent vel is what one needs. Being some what accurate is a big help being high accurate was not needed nice but not needed.

9mm 357 40 41 44 45 heck they all well work saying one is a lot better then the other is BS.

One can find great stops with the all and one can find great failures with them all.

Carry what you want I am just glad I can own carry and use lots of different guns and ammo with very few restrictions in my state and many others.

Unlike a lot of the world who has their guns and ammo limited.

What I have and carry would most likely give the police in enfeildspares area multiple heart attacks and have armored vehicle rolling down the street. Heck and there are people with a heck of a lot more then me.

They called the bomb squad out to pickup one round of 22rf. One could paralyze the whole city by just spreading and dropping one carton of 22s around. Let alone a few guns to go with them.

Being my areas armorer I was task with disposing of all the old ammo turned in by troopers who retire. Being the good employee I was I made sure it was disposed of properly. I guess over the years I disposed of thousands of rounds down range and no one except paper targets got hurt.

I think I'll go clean some of my guns I haven't seen in awhile. Or step out the basement door and do some low light shooting

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:
A younger friend of mine today told me that .45 acp was antiquated. He said in the last few years technology had followed the 9 and with all the new personal defense technology...there was no valid reason for a .45 over a 9. I assume he ment in projectiles.

Tell me...what are the new advances in technology that makes the 9 mm the ultimate man killing caliber and has put the .45 into the rest-home.

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
Big Nate, the army is limited to using FMJ bullets...if they were allowed to use modern hollow points, i think they would have a different opinion.

FWIW, I would definitely not carry 147's in a compact pistol. With that short barrel those heavy bullets are going really slow, i would bet 800 or so fps, and you are not going to get much or even any expansion.

Before I left SWAT, we did a narcotics search warrant where my fellow team member who was first in the door fired one round from his glock and hit the suspect in the chest.he did go down but we had to struggle to secure him to render first aid. While waiting for the ambulance he told us that he thought we shot him with a rubber bullet. Later at the hospital we learned that the bullet penetrated a lung and exited with zero expansion. If he chose to, he could have returned fire or even fought us physically. Shortly thereafter, we switched over to 115gr +P+ hollow points and the next shooting was fatal.

Just my 2cents of course!

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
You're absolutely right but dead is dead

Im not suggesting that a 9 is better than a 45 since i have seen first-hand the aftermath of both in action. In my experience using modern bullets, i dont see a difference between the two....of course this is my own opinion based on my experiences on the street.

For myself, i split the difference and carry a Glock 23 40cal with 165gr Speer hollowpoints.

If im not carrying my Glock i am carrying my HK P7 with 124gr Speers

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
You're absolutely right but dead is dead

Im not suggesting that a 9 is better than a 45 since i have seen first-hand the aftermath of both in action. In my experience using modern bullets, i dont see a difference between the two....of course this is my own opinion based on my experiences on the street.

For myself, i split the difference and carry a Glock 23 40cal with 165gr Speer hollowpoints.

If im not carrying my Glock i am carrying my HK P7 with 124gr Speers

I agree to a point. It all depends on the circumstances of each encounter. I have shot enough game with both to come to the conclusion that there is most definitely a difference. Not a day light and dark difference, but a difference none the less. Nothing trumps shot placement and this fact is indisputable.

quote:

HANDGUN WOUNDING FACTORS AND EFFECTIVENESS - Part 1 and Part 2

{Emphasis added}

Conclusions

Physiologically, no caliber or bullet is certain to incapacitate any individual unless the brain is hit. Psychologically, some individuals can be incapacitated by minor or small caliber wounds. Those individuals who are stimulated by fear, adrenaline, drugs, alcohol, and/or sheer will and survival determination may not be incapacitated even if mortally wounded.

The will to survive and to fight despite horrific damage to the body is commonplace on the battlefield, and on the street. Barring a hit to the brain, the only way to force incapacitation is to cause sufficient blood loss that the subject can no longer function, and that takes time. Even if the heart is instantly destroyed, there is sufficient oxygen in the brain to support full and complete voluntary action for 10-15 seconds.

Kinetic energy does not wound. Temporary cavity does not wound. The much discussed "shock" of bullet impact is a fable and "knock down" power is a myth. The critical element is penetration. The bullet must pass through the large, blood bearing organs and be of sufficient diameter to promote rapid bleeding. Penetration less than 12 inches is too little, and, in the words of two of the participants in the 1987 Wound Ballistics Workshop, "too little penetration will get you killed."

Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.

quote:

Given desirable and reliable penetration, the only way to increase bullet effectiveness is to increase the severity of the wound by increasing the size of hole made by the bullet. Any bullet which will not penetrate through vital organs from less than optimal angles is not acceptable. Of those that will penetrate, the edge is always with the bigger bullet.

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
It sounds like you are very confident with your hardware and I don't doubt your findings at all. True that an animal isn't a human but I would assume that a bullet would have similar performance on a human and a deer sized animal....both are made of skin, flesh, bone, and blood so I would definitely put allot of weight on what you are reporting.

Im no expert, whatever that means but I put my 2 Cents in anyway

quote:

Originally posted by stepchild 2:
I'm in the process of loading some 9m/m's with 90gr. Sierra HP's
In Sierras's 5th edition manual they show 5gr of Bullseye driving a 90gr HP 1250FPS and it's also shown as their accuracy load.
And there are 4 powders that will drive the 90's up to 1400, I'd sure hate to stop one of them! To me, it's not how big the entrance hole is but tissue destruction is usually what counts.

Stepchild

quote:

Originally posted by BigNate:
Stepchild - I think you'll find the 90 to lack enough penetration. Up close with a target that isn't protected it may be great. But any armor, shielding, even heavy clothing I think it will lack enough penetration to end a fight quick enough.

The FBI report was done a while back, but they continue to accumulate data. Many LEO Dept have switched ammo and calibers several times as technology has changed. Thankfully they are reacting to change rather than accept under performance.

The FBI thought the 10mm was the Bee's Knees, the over-penetration in a public venue was the reason for change. Not due to it being ineffective.

quote:

The FBI thought the 10mm was the Bee's Knees, the over-penetration in a public venue was the reason for change. Not due to it being ineffective.

Jim
"Life's hard; it's harder if you're stupid"
John Wayne

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
So Lane, how many of these combat handgun killers have you verified? I ask because the fact is that very few combat experiences include a handgun killing. Much more likely to be a rifle or shotgun or sub-machine gun if the killing is done with a personal weapon.

I carried both the .45acp and 9mm as well as the .38spl (briefly) and .357mag under combat conditions for 28 years. But I also carried rifles, shotguns and sub-machine guns (both .45acp & 9mm calibers) as well as machine guns. I prefer the latter weapons in a fight.

BTW, today I prefer the 9mm over the .45acp but will confidently carry a .22LR if that is all that is available, and have done.

I rarely post in self-defense threads, due to all the "experts" with vast combat experience who do.

quote:

Originally posted by Codename:Iceman:
Well what do you recommend then, Blood and Guts? Maybe a Sig Mosquito or a Walther TPH? Which ammo do you pop em with? I'm thinking Stingers or maybe Remington Yellow Jackets because you've made it clear in this thread you're not a ball ammo type of guy.

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:

quote:

Originally posted by Codename:Iceman:
Well what do you recommend then, Blood and Guts? Maybe a Sig Mosquito or a Walther TPH? Which ammo do you pop em with? I'm thinking Stingers or maybe Remington Yellow Jackets because you've made it clear in this thread you're not a ball ammo type of guy.

Who are you referring to Iceman?

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:

quote:

Don't forget the FBI also needed a semi-auto with a much smaller grip to accommodate their smaller stature agents.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

quote:

Don't forget the FBI also needed a semi-auto with a much smaller grip to accommodate their smaller stature agents.

Don't forget that what got this all going was the FBI trying to cover up for their poor tactical and shooting performance.

Then trying to blame 1 bullet for all their screw ups.

Some thing like 115 rounds fired by them with only a few hits.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
WOW! Just wow!

A new poster with a reading comprehension deficiency! Amazing! Where do they come from? Oh, yeah, "Harm's Way". And a great tactical handle with a wonderful avatar. And he's so profound he feels it worthwhile to include one of his own quotes in his signature line.

I'd welcome you to AR as a new member, but I really don't think it's gonna work out for you.