quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
Read it and other reports many times the 9mm silver tip preformed just like it was suppose to.

Still doesn't account for the piss poor tactics of the FBI and their Piss poor hit ratio.

The FBI is and was trying to cover up their piss poor performance on one bullet.

There is no guarantee even if that one bullet would have enter and destroyed the heart that the person shot couldn't have kept on fighting.

AS we all seen with many types of critter shot that continue on with their insides turned to mush.

All one has to do is read a few Medal of Honor reports to just see what a very motivate person can do when wounded even fatally.

I totally disagree. So you are saying the bullet was designed to not penetrate deeply enough? Sounds like a bad bullet to me. All of my experience hunting tells me that penetration into the vitals is key. Your mileage may very.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.c...m-wins-caliber-wars/

On July 25, 2014, the Federal Bureau of Investigation released a pre-solicitation notice for a family of pistols chambered in 9mm — and in so doing, fanned the embers of ‘the great debate’ over pistol calibers,” Mike Wood reports at policeone.com. Hey! Why didn’t anyone tell me about this? Of course, it was pretty much a foregone conclusion anyway. The .40 caliber round adopted by the FBI and thousands of police departments after the infamous FBI Miami shootout (a cluster-you-know-what of epic proportions) was a panic-induced compromise that didn’t provide 9mm capacity or controllability, or .45 caliber controllability and terminal performance. But don’t take my word for it. Wood rings the death knell for .40 . . .



The FBI is not alone in this respect. Executives at all the major ammunition companies have confirmed that law enforcement orders for 9mm ammunition have spiked in recent years, and the cartridge is making a serious comeback. Many agencies throughout the United States have recently adopted — or readopted — 9mm pistols, dropping the .40 S&W in the process.

It’s not that the .40 S&W failed to deliver the terminal performance they wanted. It’s just that the new breed of 9mm ammunition can deliver similar performance without the generally snappier recoil and the accelerated wear (on both pistol and shooter), at a more affordable price. The fact that the new pistols can house more of the cartridges in the same sized gun is an added bonus.

These agencies have also taken an honest look at the demographics of their personnel, and have accepted the fact that law enforcement officers no longer come in just one size—Large. Instead, there are many officers with smaller hands and shorter fingers who find it difficult to reach the controls on larger caliber pistols with their corresponding larger frames.

Despite all the ergonomic advances in pistol design of the last three decades, there is no way of getting around the fact that a .45 ACP pistol (and particularly a wide-body .45) is just going to be bigger in the hand and a .40 S&W in a smaller frame is going to recoil more.

A smaller-frame pistol in a milder shooting caliber allows more officers to achieve the control necessary for good shooting, and makes sense for diverse agencies that want to standardize on a single gun and caliber.

You heard it here first. Well, less than a month later. .40 is dead. 9mm rules. Deal with it.

I wonder if many State, County and Local PD's will follow the FBI's lead back to 9MM, just they they followed the FBI to the .40 ...

I have heard that a few Dept's in the NYC area are talking about it but it's due to the "Politically Correct" hiring of midgets, women, as well as sub-standard humans of every race, creed, color, and sexual orientation.

The recruits of this day and age cannot handle a 40SW or 45....they can't handle a 9mm but that's another story.

God Help Us!

Poor shots are poor shoots no matter what you give them pistol, rifle, or shotgun.

Some can do better with long guns but.

quote:

Originally posted by Leopardtrack:
I have heard that a few Dept's in the NYC area are talking about it but it's due to the "Politically Correct" hiring of midgets, women, as well as sub-standard humans of every race, creed, color, and sexual orientation.

God Help Us!

Curious which local Depts in or around the concrete jungle are going back to the 9MM

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

Don't forget that what got this all going was the FBI trying to cover up for their poor tactical and shooting performance.

Then trying to blame 1 bullet for all their screw ups.

Some thing like 115 rounds fired by them with only a few hits.

I think this pretty well sums it up and I do have and have read with great interest the below analysis of the fight both book and DVD. Enjoyed the photos on the slab of Platt/Matix.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Zero:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

Don't forget that what got this all going was the FBI trying to cover up for their poor tactical and shooting performance.

Then trying to blame 1 bullet for all their screw ups.

Some thing like 115 rounds fired by them with only a few hits.

I think this pretty well sums it up and I do have and have read with great interest the below analysis of the fight both book and DVD. Enjoyed the photos on the slab of Platt/Matix.

I was about 8 years of a 33 year Law enforcement career at the time of the shooting.

Live, breath, trained and taught law enforcement tactics my first thoughts where after reviewing what happen was What the heck were they doing.

I came to the conclusion that FBI suffered from a huge case of We're the FBI.

They were out hunting some very serious bad guys. Very under armed and mentally not prepared for the encounter.

I really think they believed that the BGs would just give themselves up to the FBI. Or just that they were not going to find them.

Well they found them caught them and were not prepared for the after math.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

Despite all the ergonomic advances in pistol design of the last three decades, there is no way of getting around the fact that a .45 ACP pistol (and particularly a wide-body .45) is just going to be bigger in the hand and a .40 S&W in a smaller frame is going to recoil more.

I have pistols and revolvers of all types and calibers ranging from .454 Casull to .25 ACP.

When I go to qualify for my CHL...I always reach and pick up a .45 ACP. My wife perfers one too. I have always found them to be a very shootable round and personlly like the way they recoil better than most smaller framed 9's. Maybe just me.

I agree, one of the problems was Platt & Matix mentally prepared and trained for the fight, FBI guys were not in the frame of mind to fight, overcome, prevail.

Also, I think there was an MP5 on the back seat of trunk that never made it into the fight. Longer barrel, more velocity, more penetration ...

I think you're right about the MP-5 being present.

Most of all Platt and Matix were mentally prepared to fight to the death.

quote:

Originally posted by ledvm:

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:

Despite all the ergonomic advances in pistol design of the last three decades, there is no way of getting around the fact that a .45 ACP pistol (and particularly a wide-body .45) is just going to be bigger in the hand and a .40 S&W in a smaller frame is going to recoil more.

I have pistols and revolvers of all types and calibers ranging from .454 Casull to .25 ACP.

When I go to qualify for my CHL...I always reach and pick up a .45 ACP. My wife perfers one too. I have always found them to be a very shootable round and personlly like the way they recoil better than most smaller framed 9's. Maybe just me.

It's not just you, I agree. I carry a Sig P220 Carry in .45 ACP every day. I find it to be a very soft shooting round and even my wife and 16 yr old son prefer it my 9mms and my Walther PPK .380 ACP. In the Sig platform it is a very sweet shooting round.

The 220s are good pistols shot first one when they were still imported with the butt mag latch decades ago.

Shooting any pistol is more a matter of technique the better the technique the better the shooter.

My daughter when she was 14 or so after shooting my 44 mag redhawk with 315gr cast at 1280 fps looked at me and said not bad dad not bad at all.

That was after watching her run 6 pop cans at 30 yards with six shots all off hand and all double action

I prefer my P90 to the sigs personal preference

But that said I prefer the high capacity of 9s and 40s to the lower capacity 45s.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Zero:
I agree, one of the problems was Platt & Matix mentally prepared and trained for the fight, FBI guys were not in the frame of mind to fight, overcome, prevail.

Also, I think there was an MP5 on the back seat of trunk that never made it into the fight. Longer barrel, more velocity, more penetration ...

BS, the FBI did over come and prevail in the fight. They were on a rolling stake out, the guys that had automatic weapons did not get to the shoot out until it was over. All officers carried what they were allowed to carry. When a bullet fails to penetrate deeply enough on a man that doesn't weigh but about 175 pounds the ammo is not going to be effective enough. The same in the hunting fields.

quote:

BS, the FBI did over come and prevail in the fight. They were on a rolling stake out, the guys that had automatic weapons did not get to the shoot out until it was over. All officers carried what they were allowed to carry. When a bullet fails to penetrate deeply enough on a man that doesn't weigh but about 175 pounds the ammo is not going to be effective enough. The same in the hunting fields.

The FBI tactics were just bad their shooting was bad also.

The FBI agents involved made many mistakes but they did end up killing the BGs.

The FBI needed a scape goat for their poor tactics and shooting.

They must have done a good job of it as some still believe the BS they put out that if a couple more inches of penetration by a single bullet that hit.

Out of hundred plus that were fired and missed would have made a different.

But then we don't know that one way or another because it didn't happen.

What I can tell you that their tactics confronting the BGs were just plain screwed up.

Why can I say because having trained been a trainer and conducted many high risk stops.

They way they conducted it wasn't any way I would have.

Unfortunate for you that you can not handle a differing point of view than your own.

As an active Instr with more than a dozen F.I. Creds it is obvious one is not mentally prepared to fight when:

They did not don body armor when going out to attempt to apprehend violent perps, who have already used deadly physical force

Each Agent should have had immediate access to a long gun and extra ammo. As opposed to, one long gun locked in a trunk and a shotgun with no extra ammo. How about Hard Armor ?

Mentally prepared means your handgun is secure in its holster (isnt that what its designed to do) instead of laying on a seat where at the slightest vehicle maneuver you will be without it. What kind of vehicle tactics training was that for the driver?

Bring a sufficient number of re load mags with you and on your person, read not attempting to reload from a cardboard ammo box in a vehicles glovebox while allowing armed perps to maneuver while you reload. To include the use of revolver speed loaders/ speed strips not revolver reloading by oneies.

Not going up against multiple perps known to both carry long guns and side arms when you have a 5 shot snubby without proper reload equipment, nor body armor.

The Agents were tactically and mentally unprepared when you plan on going up against long arm carrying perps with no long gun and no back up handgun and no body armor. How many guys died by violating this rule ?

What was their Medical Plan? Who was the Medic? Where was the Trauma bag? Never mentioned in the briefing. File that under "This is the FBI, drop your weapons".

Let me know if you need more examples of how mentally and tactically unprepared the Agents were fro this fight. You may consider this a victory, the Agents got their asses handed to them that day. How many Agents did not go home that night?

How much time, effort and money went into examining this "victory" which lead to how much change in policy.

Your an ass.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:


They were on a rolling stake out, the guys that had automatic weapons did not get to the shoot out until it was over. All officers carried what they were allowed to carry. When a bullet fails to penetrate deeply enough on a man that doesn't weigh but about 175 pounds the ammo is not going to be effective enough. The same in the hunting fields.

Revisionist history. There was and is no shortage of long guns in the FBI's Armory. The Agents chose not to go out with a long gun and the few that were there they also chose to lock it in the trunk ensuring that it was not be readily available to fight with. Vehicle tactics.

Laws of physics, not a good idea for a smaller lighter vehicles to try to force a larger heavier vehicle to do something, expecially when you know in advance EXACTLY what kind of vehicle they are expected to be operating.

Well over 100 rounds fired, but the performance was blamed on one Winchester Silvertip for the loss, well "victory".

What would have happened if the perps had body armor on? Were the Agents tactically prepared to deal with that likelihood (carrying long guns)? They must all have been in a no body armor zone that day.

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Zero:
Unfortunate for you that you can not handle a differing point of view than your own.

As an active Instr with more than a dozen F.I. Creds it is obvious one is not mentally prepared to fight when:

They did not don body armor when going out to attempt to apprehend violent perps, who have already used deadly physical force

Each Agent should have had immediate access to a long gun and extra ammo. As opposed to, one long gun locked in a trunk and a shotgun with no extra ammo. How about Hard Armor ?

Mentally prepared means your handgun is secure in its holster (isnt that what its designed to do) instead of laying on a seat where at the slightest vehicle maneuver you will be without it. What kind of vehicle tactics training was that for the driver?

Bring a sufficient number of re load mags with you and on your person, read not attempting to reload from a cardboard ammo box in a vehicles glovebox while allowing armed perps to maneuver while you reload. To include the use of revolver speed loaders/ speed strips not revolver reloading by oneies.

Not going up against multiple perps known to both carry long guns and side arms when you have a 5 shot snubby without proper reload equipment, nor body armor.

The Agents were tactically and mentally unprepared when you plan on going up against long arm carrying perps with no long gun and no back up handgun and no body armor. How many guys died by violating this rule ?

What was their Medical Plan? Who was the Medic? Where was the Trauma bag? Never mentioned in the briefing. File that under "This is the FBI, drop your weapons".

Let me know if you need more examples of how mentally and tactically unprepared the Agents were fro this fight. You may consider this a victory, the Agents got their asses handed to them that day. How many Agents did not go home that night?

How much time, effort and money went into examining this "victory" which lead to how much change in policy.

Your an ass.

100% spot on!

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Zero:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:


They were on a rolling stake out, the guys that had automatic weapons did not get to the shoot out until it was over. All officers carried what they were allowed to carry. When a bullet fails to penetrate deeply enough on a man that doesn't weigh but about 175 pounds the ammo is not going to be effective enough. The same in the hunting fields.

Revisionist history. There was and is no shortage of long guns in the FBI's Armory. The Agents chose not to go out with a long gun and the few that were there they also chose to lock it in the trunk ensuring that it was not be readily available to fight with. Vehicle tactics.

Laws of physics, not a good idea for a smaller lighter vehicles to try to force a larger heavier vehicle to do something, expecially when you know in advance EXACTLY what kind of vehicle they are expected to be operating.

Well over 100 rounds fired, but the performance was blamed on one Winchester Silvertip for the loss, well "victory".

What would have happened if the perps had body armor on? Were the Agents tactically prepared to deal with that likelihood (carrying long guns)? They must all have been in a no body armor zone that day.

Agent Mireles wrote that they carried the weapon that they were allowed to carry by department protocol.

quote:

Agent Mireles wrote that they carried the weapon that they were allowed to carry by department protocol.

Department protocols almost always have exemptions for special circumstances.

Chasing seriously armed, murdering, bank robbers is a special circumstance if I ever saw one.

The SA INCHARGE should have made sure his agents were properly equipped to handle well know rifle armed bank robbers.

All agents are minimum qualified with the shotgun.

No reason that all passenger agents should not have had a shotgun available if not a rifle to them in the front seat with extra ammo on their person.

No reason that all agents were not wearing their vests. Soft armor doesn't not stop direct hits from rifle fire. But can be very useful for pass through hits, fragments and shrapnel.

Also they are a constant reminder that some thing serious could happen.

The fact that they did not have long guns readily available to every passenger, were not wearing their vests.

Tells me they were not serious about the situation.

Having hunted serious BGs I can tell you vest were worn, the fire power came out and was readily available with extra ammo.

Again you are absolutely correct

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by Cold Zero:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jwp475:


They were on a rolling stake out, the guys that had automatic weapons did not get to the shoot out until it was over. All officers carried what they were allowed to carry. When a bullet fails to penetrate deeply enough on a man that doesn't weigh but about 175 pounds the ammo is not going to be effective enough. The same in the hunting fields.

Agent Mireles wrote that they carried the weapon that they were allowed to carry by department protocol.

Does anyone know back in 1986 whether the Miami Field Office performed qualification semi annually or quarterly with Pistol, Shotgun and MP5 since one was present ?

How about rifle qualifcation ? Going out hunting for rifle toting BG's who have killed would want to make me take a rifle due to the added magazine capacity and range over the shotgun or MP5.

Did they have in their armory Mini 14, M16, AR15, etc ? I am sure the regional Field Office SWAT guys had one or more of the above rifles.

You won't make any holes, of any size, in people if you don't hit the target. If you train a lot then the biggest caliber you can consistantly hit with is the right choice.

But if the only caliber you shoot well is the 9mm (because a pistol you shoot well is in 9mm and there are a whole lot more pistol choices in 9mm to allow you to get there) then that is what you should shoot.

Hand size, arm and hand strength, managing recoil, pistol size if you plan to carry all the time, are all factors which will influence how well you shoot when it counts. Of course, if you don't train at all then you're probably going to lose the fight anyway. Missing with a 45 won't solve too many problems.