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One of Us |
A younger friend of mine today told me that .45 acp was antiquated. He said in the last few years technology had followed the 9 and with all the new personal defense technology...there was no valid reason for a .45 over a 9. I assume he ment in projectiles. Tell me...what are the new advances in technology that makes the 9 mm the ultimate man killing caliber and has put the .45 into the rest-home. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | ||
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| One of Us |
the wisdom of youth | |||
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| Moderator |
The .45 ACP is 'antiquated', yet people still promote the .45-70 as a great game-killer.  Given the same bullet technology, the .45 ACP will STILL make a bigger hole. George  | |||
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One of Us |
Bullet construction and manufacturing processes have made great strides but the 9mm is still a 38 Spl. +P load as far as velocity and bullet weights are concerned. The venerable 45ACP is superior in terminal ballistics and the ability to stop an attacker. The only "advantage" the 9mm has over the 45 ACP is the number of rounds in the magazine. When you take into account the number of rounds it taketo stop an attacker you have less firepower with the 9mm than with the 8 - 10 rounds in the 45 ACP. It seems the same people who applaud the 9mm for its use in self defense would not consider the 38 Spl. for the same use even though the 38 Spl. loaded with +P ammo is actually a few fps faster with the same weight bullets. This is and never has been about the actual ballistics of the round but rather the "kool" package that fires the rounds. Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
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| One of Us |
Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
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| One of Us |
Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
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| One of Us |
The "technology" is a high capacity magazine. But as someone once said when talking about the high capacity wonder nines you cannot miss fast enough to catch up. | |||
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| One of Us |
9mm, 125s at 1200 fps. .38, 125s at 950 fps. I'm not buying it. In the past 9mm didn't expand as reliably as larger bullets but that is solved now. Currently, expect a premium 9mm to expand to the low .6X" range, .40 to the high .6X" range and .45 in the .7X" range or sometimes a little bigger. Given the poor penetration and significant weight of the .45, all of my pistols are 9 or 10mm. | |||
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| One of Us |
With the +P and +P+ series with heavier and bonded core bullets in the tactical series, I feel the 9mm is very close in effectiveness and with 50% more ammo in the clip. I shoot this tactical ammo and even though bonded, it opens up quickly...and yet will almost make it thru a concrete block without losing much bullet weight. That is pretty impressive. I love my 45's, but the new breed of 9mm ammo is nipping at it's heels. | |||
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| One of Us |
I have heard all of this stuff before. The 9 with all these add-ons is as good as a .45. Every time I have talked to people who have been in combat with a pistol and used it to kill men...they have to the one told me that you can't beat the .45. It gives you one-hit-one-down capability from all truncal hits. Most say it is second only to 12-gauge shotgun for close combat stopping capabilities. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
Your figures above are not reflective of reality. Case capacity: 13.3 gr H2O for 9mm vs. 23.1 gr H2O for .38 Special. Usually...the larger case will ALWAYS win. As far as penetration in the human body...the .45 has always been criticized for OVER penetration. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
You aren't using the 38 Spl. +P velocity. Find the +P velocity and then compare. Speer, Sierra, Lyman, Hornady, Hodgdon have reliable reloading data. You won't find it on so and so's web page. | |||
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| one of us |
Heard this all before I have yet to find a 9mm or 45 lover willing to take the first round from one or the other to prove that that can keep fighting. | |||
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| One of Us |
Lane, Your young friend said technology has followed the 9mm, does he think technology left out the 45? Whatever the 9mm has also followed the 45 as far as bullet design and construction. Bullets now are the best we have ever had in all of firearms history. Its all good, pick your posion. | |||
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One of Us |
So Lane, how many of these combat handgun killers have you verified? I ask because the fact is that very few combat experiences include a handgun killing. Much more likely to be a rifle or shotgun or sub-machine gun if the killing is done with a personal weapon. I carried both the .45acp and 9mm as well as the .38spl (briefly) and .357mag under combat conditions for 28 years. But I also carried rifles, shotguns and sub-machine guns (both .45acp & 9mm calibers) as well as machine guns. I prefer the latter weapons in a fight. BTW, today I prefer the 9mm over the .45acp but will confidently carry a .22LR if that is all that is available, and have done. I rarely post in self-defense threads, due to all the "experts" with vast combat experience who do. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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| One of Us |
Hi Mike, The .45 ACP has been the firearm of the Texas Ranger for years. I have a highly decorated TR aquaintanance. Most of the guys I am referring to are Texas Rangers. As to the .22 LR...I have one (shot from 4 ft away from a revolver) lodged in my 3rd cervical vertebrae that went through my face to get there. It actually had little effect on me until the swelling set in. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| One of Us |
The British Army did a survey of this after WWII. Interviewing those who had, in combat, used the 9mm vs the .455 Webley vs .45ACP and etc., etc.. Apparently what it "proved" was that the calibre that the respondent had used was thought, by that respondent, to be "the best". Now I am sure that for all those alive that also thought the .30 M1 Carbine round "the best" there are graves enough of those who it failed in combat. These surveys really only interview those who are alive and thus, by inference, those fr whom it worked. Personally recounted to me was that many, in WW1 from personal experience, thought the 380 ACP (aka 9mm Short) a better "stopper" at close range than 9mm Parabellum (aka 9mm Luger) as it didn't shoot through but stayed in the target and delivered all its energy. | |||
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| one of us |
I have always been a proponent of the 45 Auto. My youngest son not so much. When he got back from deployment and some real field experience, he allowed as how he had found a way to be issued a 45 ACP handgun. Was much happier with its terminal performance. And he changed his concealed carry preference as well. As Mark Twain opined ... amazing how much smarter the old man gets with a little time. ;-) Mike -------------- DRSS, Womper's Club, NRA Life Member/Charter Member NRA Golden Eagles ... Knifemaker, http://www.mstarling.com | |||
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| One of Us |
In war applications, the .45 ACP will always win. Due to the laws of war, governed by the Geneva Convention. Restricting bullets to the FMJ variety. The powers that be at that time, deemed that expanding hollow point as inhumane.... Since the .45 ACP already has the diameter advantage which induced a larger wound channel etc.... It obviously became more effective on soft human targets. Granting that a well placed C.N.S. hit will incur similar results with many calibers. Many veterans staked their life on the Government issue .45 ACP and came through. Solidifying their beliefs from real world combat experiences. That view carried on in civilian life and influenced many. Justifiably so, myself included. I carried a Colt 1911 series 70 built by Wilson in the early 80's. When you are a civilian or live in a country that gives you access to quality expanding hollow points. You would be unwise not to take advantage of a much enhanced capability on soft targets. This advantage levels the playing field. There are many statistical studies available today from FBI/DOJ/Law enforcement incidences/hospital reports etc.. etc.... That confirm the lethality of the 9mm with good bullets and placement. Without going into details of a much discussed and studied subject which the internet is full of and it's a good thing. I personally have accepted the 9mm and do carry it as my personal defense pistol/CCW with full confidence. | |||
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one of us |
Its the Hague Convention that addressed bullets but they have since allowed hollow point rifle ammo. I wonder if it will ever translate to pistol ammo and more importantly, who's watching, anyway? "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| One of Us |
Modern defensive/combat ammo has been improved vastly in the last decade or so. The physics of the bullet/target equation always favors a larger diameter ( hence heavier) bullet. Simple physics-if a 9mm fails to expand, well, you got .35 holes, if a 45 fails, well, it will leave a 12mm hole. Where is your starting point preference? Next, is the combat calculus aspect, a 17 round 9mm versus a 8 round 45. Is a two to one capacity ratio an advantage? Maybe. If the terminal effect is one for one, great, if two to one, that is problematic. If recoil is an issue, same issue. Next is actual effect on target. Does a solid hit from a 9 do as much as a same hit from a 40 or 45? The human body is never the same twice concerning terminal ballistic effect. Finally, is the total package ( capacity, caliber and physical size of the gun relevant? I can carry my mini glock 40 as handily as I can carry my full sized Government model, one with 10 aboard, the other with 9... Yes, one is lighter, but the trade is mine to worry about. Kind of funny, but usually the G27 comes off when I leave the home site, traded for the 45 and two spare 8 round mags, a combat light and a carry folder.... At home my intent is to get to the nearest rifle/shotgun, afoot in town, it is to stop a threat(s) and survive to the next piece of hard cover while escaping..... The equation is never solely about 9mm vs 12mm... Whatever you choose, just think it through, you won't have time to think about regrets if it happens. | |||
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| One of Us |
The regulations are to prohibit "expanding" ammunition that is "designed to cause unecessay suffering" from when I knew all this. And, apparently, this modern open tip ammunition isn't designed to "expand". As to who is watching? In the Falklands one Argentine officer, on surrendering, was disarmed of his pistol by British Paratroops. On starting to make the pistol safe the British soldier realised that the magazine was charged with soft point bullets. It is said that on seeing this he re-inserted the pistol into the magazine, racked the slide, and discharged the full contents of the magazine into the Argentine. So whilst nobody may be watching it isn't an advisable idea if you plan on surrendering and being caught in possession of them. | |||
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| one of us |
You nailed the irony on the head when you said ""expanding". Now the ruling is based on intent and not effect. Thousands of Americans hunt with Sierra Matchking hollowpoints which while not specifically designed to expand, they do so with great reliability in deer sized game. The same Sierra bullets are used in American sniper ammo. And my question of who is watching was slightly larger than one Argentine officer; what exactly would happen to North Korea, Venezuela or the US for that matter if their militaries decided to adopt hollow point ammo? "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| One of Us |
What...exactly...advances have been made in personal defense ammo? Better quality expanding bullets??? As to projectiles...here is my line of thinking...I always prefer FMJ in .45 caliber. Why? For just the reasons everyone has stated...unpredictability of the situation. Will I need to shoot thru car window? What will the target be wearing? FMJ always cycles more reliably. Etc etc. Trials done on livestock back in the early 20th century with .45 ball vs. .357 ball proved the superiority of the .45 ACP (or LC for that matter) over the .357 projectile in sheer knock-down-power. This discussion really is no different than a cape buff charge and in that situation...the .458 Win Mag always trumps the .375 H&H. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| one of us |
I carry ball in all my 45s too, I figure reliability trumps all other advantages. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| One of Us |
If I didn't have faith in reliability with expanding HP's. Then I would choose the .45ACP with FMJ hands down. But I do....hence my choice. | |||
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| one of us |
I know its as much psychological for me as real. I know modern bullet profiles are fine-tuned but a 45 caliber hole doesn't need the same help so I go old school. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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One of Us |
Quote: "Personally recounted to me was that many, in WW1 from personal experience, thought the 380 ACP (aka 9mm Short) a better "stopper" at close range than 9mm Parabellum (aka 9mm Luger) as it didn't shoot through but stayed in the target and delivered all its energy." I always get a chuckle out of the logic about 'expending all its energy' inside the target. If you stop and think about it for a moment, the only reason a bullet expends all its energy inside a target is that it did not have enough energy to exit the target. All things being equal, I'd take two holes - an entry and exit - over a single hole every time. As to the comments about the Geneva Convention and non-expanding bullets; apparently this does not apply to private contractors like Blackwater and other 'security contractors'. I have a friend who came home from Iraq and we were talking about his experiences over there. He told me that some of the employees of the private contractors had reloading benches set up to make their own sniper ammunition. He was most impressed with the performance of 150 grain ballistic tips shot from a .308. He told me they leave very impressive exit holes. No suffering either, as the targets were DRT. | |||
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| One of Us |
DLS I like your words of wisdom. | |||
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| One of Us |
I'd guess one of three things. Don't forget that these Hague Regulations and Geneva Conventions were adopted LESS because of concern for you enemy but more out of concern for your casualties if your enemy then used this "new" technology on you! Logically expanding bullets make sense. They'll tie up your enemy's resources as he tries to deal with his now severe casualty problem. EXCEPT OF COURSE WHEN HE THEN USES THE SAME WEAPON AGAINST YOU. So these things were always allowed to remain for "savage" warfare (think USA vs American Indians, UK vs Mahdists in the Sudan, Spanish vs Arabs in Morocco etc., but only banned for use by the modern civilised powers against other modern civilised powers. The other is directly connected and that is fear of retaliation at regimental level. In that if you and your men are captured with it it becomes an instant death sentence. So three things: Either their military at the highest level would refuse to accept any direction to use such ammunition, or a regimental level officers would refuse to accept it, or you would have a huge amount of captured prisoners being shot on either side if captured with it. | |||
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One of Us |
9mm, 125 gr, 1200 fps = 399 ftlbs .38, 125 gr, 950 fps = 250 ftlbs .45, 185 gr, 1012 fps = 420 ftlbs (Golden Sabre +P in a Glock 30) Shoot what you can, shot placement is key. By the way, 175 SMK 1200 fps (@1000 yards) 559 ftlbs. A bad day at the range is better than a good day at work. | |||
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| one of us |
I understand how all that works in the academic environments of warfare conferences and I understand their original reasons for adoption. But truthfully, cluster bombs and fleshettes, claymores or any other dozen weapon systems (not to mention standard artillary) make it a window dressing today, IMO. Overtaking forward units often pronounce a death sentence anyway, because at platoon or even company level there may not be resources to manage any number prisoners and they can't afford to have them loose behind their advance. An unpleasant practicality that isn't discussed back at HQ. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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| One of Us |
These people usually try to escape after being captured and the soldier in custody has to prevent them from escaping.
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| One of Us |
Energy transfer is not a factor at handgun velocities. I can imagine that the round nose of a .380 would cut a better wound track than the ogive of a 9mm though. | |||
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| One of Us |
What does he do that he has seen people shot with handguns multiple times? I know guys with 50 plus months deployed with SOF that have yet to see a handgun fired in anger. | |||
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| One of Us |
I know plenty of people who willing take 9mm back to war. Hell, lots of guys at CAG were unhappy when the bosses took their Glock 19s and gave them Glock 22s. | |||
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| One of Us |
That is the velocity of a Gold Dot, like I have currently in my handgun at home. | |||
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| One of Us |
But the .38 Special "can" be loaded much hotter for handguns that can handle it. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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| one of us |
Since when has the 45 had poor penetration compared to the 9mm? That seems doubtfull to me. | |||
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| one of us |
SR5479 General Bradleys General Rule No. 1 "Too many prisoners slows the speed of the march" The interpretation of that was generally left to small unit commanders who shared your thoughts on the matter. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Personal Defence And Concealed Carry 9 mm technology vs. good ole .45 acp
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