Crocodile Hunt

So we have been fighting long and hard to have crocodile hunting legalised and there on a supposedly legitimate website we have an offer for a crocodile hunt in Australia...WTF???

Little wonder the authorities wont allow it - when hunters cant be trusted (it seems) to obey the law..

looks to me like its an outfitter not the hunter thats attempting to break the law

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
looks to me like its an outfitter not the hunter thats attempting to break the law

Actually mate when I wrote hunter, I meant professional hunter ... but at the same time... for the traveling hunter, ignorance of local laws is small defence, especially when the Lacy Act is invoked!!

agree 101% - but it sure would be fun to go after one of them thar big saltys

quote:

Originally posted by butchloc:
agree 101% - but it sure would be fun to go after one of them thar big saltys

Amen to that!! Oh by the way - it isnt attempting to break the law eith...it IS breaking the law even to offer it!!

What about this line-

"Magpie geese, ducks and other plains game free of trophy fees. No bag limits. The best time to visit – June through to the middle of November."

About four months of that is out of season for ducks and Geese and there is a bag limit.
Has this bloke been reported to anyone yet Matt?

Most expensive pig hunting I've ever seen advertised in the NT too at $1200 per day plus $250 trophy fee.

I would love to see a video of someone harpooning a big croc from a small boat.

quote:

Originally posted by Bakes:
What about this line-

"Magpie geese, ducks and other plains game free of trophy fees. No bag limits. The best time to visit – June through to the middle of November."

About four months of that is out of season for ducks and Geese and there is a bag limit.
Has this bloke been reported to anyone yet Matt?

WELL.... I have reported him to the owner of the website but apparently he doesnt give a shit!! I mentioned it to another outfitter who sponsors the site and he said "apparently it is legal"... yeah in some parallel universe!!!

quote:

apparently it is legal

Wonder if that will stand up in court?

I know that there have been more than 600 depredation permits/yr for crocs in recent years. The croc had to be trapped, and then dispatched by the "Resident Australian Permit Holder". I do not know the process by which the permits are issued, and wonder how the Aborigines needs and problems fit into the issuing of permits on their lands?

quote:

Originally posted by SGraves155:
I know that there have been more than 600 depredation permits/yr for crocs in recent years. The croc had to be trapped, and then dispatched by the "Resident Australian Permit Holder". I do not know the process by which the permits are issued, and wonder how the Aborigines needs and problems fit into the issuing of permits on their lands?

No I dont know either - I think with the locals it is a case of just not telling anyone and the government accepts that some of the big crocs will be killed in the communities without a permit, because they are causing problems. No one wants to touch it and the govt will look the other way.

Thats fair enough but to be blatantly selling it for a trophy fee is about three steps too far. Ironically this is the same community group who were lobbying the Federal govt at the time of the last safari hunting submission - asking them to legalise it (safari hunting). Maybe they think they can get away with it by doing a non-export sale (to an Aussie??). Maybe someone in the community has a licence to sell them?? Even so the advertisment doesnt even go part the way to make it clear who is doing the killing.

False and misleading advertising, in the least.

I agree.

It doesn't seem to be a problem for the local constabulary here. If a croc starts to pester the community, they trap it and dispatch it. I doubt very much that permits are issued - or even applied for.





Give it a few years Matt, the crocs will become such a pest that the govt will have to do something and issuing permits is a lot cheaper than employing pro hunters for the job.

Yes well Im sure we have all witnessed the NT coppers doing whatever they feel like at times!! I sure have... God Bless 'em!!

Im sure the coppers have some powers to despatch such animals but I am also pretty sure they are meant to report it to Parks, so that it could be recorded.

Anyone who has a problem with this issue , is welcome to contact me on lesterra@ozemail.com.au and I will tell him/her all about permits from NT Wildlife Commission, CITES export permits from Environment Australia in Canberra and Import Permit from one of the EU countries where this croc trophy had actually landed. Therefore all of this was perectly legal. Matt Graham knows perfectly well that it was me who had arranged for that hunt and for the export of the trophy - why he is not telling you who I am, I have no idea ?

I had been working on this project for the past 10 years to make it happen - and it were not local or federal authorities who were throwing stumbling blocks onto my legs, ut NT outfitters who feared competition and who themselves did not have any clue how to go about it and who always tried to stop me in my tracks ! (Les, do not talk about crocodiles because it may jeopardize our buffalo business !) ! Now , everybody is asking me - Les, how to do it ?

Les Kosek TIG

PS - thanks to Accurate Reloading Forum members free discussions on such topics regarding legalities and this Lacey Act, economical hunts for PAC elephants in Mozambique are just about to be banned for US hunters , and the reindeer hunting in Iceland has effectively been stoppped for American Hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by Les Kosek:
economical hunts for PAC elephants in Mozambique are just about to be banned for US hunters , .

Les,
I have seen documents stating that PAC hunts are not allowed in Mozambique. Do you have different info?

Les

There is no specific hunt mentioned in this posting - just a hunt being offered.

I have no idea what you are doing or offering but I can assure you that there is NO safari hunting of crocodiles allowed in the NT. If you are offering a hunt and have found some loophole to do it then good for you but while ever the Fed govt says they will not allow it - I will be stuffed if I will offer a hunt on some dodgy loophole. If it IS legal then why does the NT govt (PWS) ask for it to be sanctioned in their draft management plan???

If you have a loophole to do it then perhaps you will tell the members how the loophole works?? Any prospective hunter would at least want to know that!!

Matt

Hi All,
PAC ele hunts in Moz.
Ozhunter - you have seen a document issued by certain Afonso M in Maputo way back in 2005. In Moz there are different provinces, each having its own regulations and rules. PAC hunts - for PAC animals, meaning also crocs, hippos and rouge eles are not trophy hunts, those operations are "cropping" man killers and village crop riders. I am in possession of recent documents where local provincial governments issued "request to remove" to current concessions owners/care takers. Each case is assessed on it own merits. PAC animals are not coming from CITES trophy quotas, thereforee those are non-exportable and no CITES for them. The whole saga started when the Old Guard (Those well established Moz outfitters ) had found they cannot have such "requests to remove" in their provinces so they cannot stomach those new boys on the block who can obtain such "requests to remove" in their provinces.The reason why they want to hush down this PAC hunting down in other provinces is that others PAC hunts are very cheap ($ 11,300 all up - no trophy fee there!) versus their own trophy elephant hunts (Priced at some 50-60 K !). In Moz there are hunting concessions, some are called "coutadas", some are "reserves", some are "conservation areas". All are different.Each such land, in each province, has its own regulations. PAC animals hunt are under the jurisdiction of Agriculture department, not under the jurisdiction of Wildlife Authorities in Maputo. Maputo regulates CITES export permits and hunting guns importation only - what happens with PAC animals is the business of a particular local province Agriculture department. Like in Australia - the official, federal line is that there is no hunting roos in Australia. However, in Queensland any licensed hunter, and any overseas licensed hunter for that matter, can apply and will be granted 50 kangaroo tags for his personal use each calendar year . This is legal only in Qld. nowhere else ! Few people know about it !
I happen to understand Portuguese and when I compare official letters in Portuguese to their English translations, I find some words are not the same in both languages!
Back to kangaroos in Australia. The only other way to legally hunt kangaroos in numbers in all other Australian States, is to approach any landowner who had acquired "permit to remove" and will allow you to use his tags. The permit stipulates - the owner of a "Permit to remove" can nominate any licensed hunter to remove his quota,if he does not want to do the honors himself. This is the same with PAC eles in Moz in Tete province on tribal land only. The owner of a "request to remove" can nominate anybody he bloody likes to do the shooting. Makes you wonder why all of this stink is only all about jumbos , and why no one is saying anything about legalities there when it come to removing man killing crocs or hippos or carnivores ???
Maputo tries to be the only regulatory body in such matters, but local Agriculture and Taxation Offices in certain provinces in Moz are of a different opinion of course !. PAC elephant hunts are not readily available even in TETE, those are not "on - call" offers. In each case, the "request to remove" must be obtained first, before any such hunt can commence.

Crocs and birds in NT in Oz. I have tried to make the Arafura Hunts offer as idiot proof I could, but it looks like people are still skipping some important semantics there.

I have said there - hunting birds in season. Later I am saying - the best time to come to NT is this and that month. I dd not not say, did I, that one can do bird shooting at any of those times ??? In NT bird licenses are usually issued at the beginning of September.

Crocodiles - again, this is not a rifle hunt - it is hunting crocs TRADITIONAL WAY, HARPOONING ...in the company of Aboriginal traditional land/croc owners. The boat used is the boat which has been designed for that sort of a job by NT Wildlife Commision .rangers/officers who do their croc control programs using that particular vessel.

Why the Canberra (And our "Midnight Oil", Peter Garret., Esq in particular !) are always knocking down the NT Government proposal of opening "Crocodile Safari Hunting" is because Safari Hunting means, in everybody understanding - shooting crocs in a daylight WITH THE RIFLE. And they are right when knocking such hunting method down. Using the firearm is the surest way to loose the croc and to inflict terrible wound to it before he dies on the bottom in the next day or so.. If you do not demolish his brain with the first shot that is - and who is such a crack shot these days to shoot at the brain the size of the an Italian Nut on the first try at at any angle ?!!! Hunting crocs with a harpoon with the floater at the end of the line, is the surest way of harvesting him. Method well proven through eons of time !Why Japanese whalers are not using bazookas but Sven Foyd's last century invented harpoon ???

Safari Hunting for crocs is hunting crocs with the rifle, that 's why it won't be allowed for some time yet ! However, Canberra is under the constant pressure from Darwin to open up such hunts because the situation with crocs up there is not funny - those are now every there, showing themselves up in the gutters, in sewers, in the canals, swimming around marinas and bridges and beaches and nearly every day in NT/Darwin realms there is a fatal encounter with those lizards. (Just read NT News !)While hunting with traditional land owners, in a traditional (Harpooning in the night out of the boat) way is still allowed. Those fellows, if they know how to do it, can obtain themselves a license from NT Wildlife Commission which allows them to sell their dead croc to whoever they like - thence no problem with obtaining the export license.

Conclusion - no shooting crocs with the rifle for sport or for fun . However, harpooning crocs on traditional land with traditional land owner is still all right.

BTW - if Canberra will allow (And those Canberra blokes will in a year or two, because Darwin won't stop lobbying for it !) )Safari Hunting for crocs with firearms, Canberra will impose some ridiculous trophy fee on every such lizard killed that way. They are already talking here about some $ 10,000 trophy fee, not yet specifying who will be the beneficiary of those ! I have talked those TLO's of mine into $ 5000 trophy fee - and this trophy fee goes to them each time the hunter "harvests" one of their crocs.
Cheers
Les

Good reply above there Les.

As far as the below mate being a licenced permit holder for `roo destruction in Vic I have to say that its my name on the permit and thus in Vic i am the one that does the trigger work,anyone else would have to have their name on the permit to shoot also.

I agree, allow croc hunting but as an affordable to all of us not just the blokes sitting on a poultice!

quote:

Back to kangaroos in Australia. The only other way to legally hunt kangaroos in numbers in all other Australian States, is to approach any landowner who had acquired "permit to remove" and will allow you to use his tags. The permit stipulates - the owner of a "Permit to remove" can nominate any licensed hunter to remove his quota,if he does not want to do the honors himself.

quote:

shooting crocs in a daylight WITH THE RIFLE. And they are right when knocking such hunting method down. Using the firearm is the surest way to loose the croc and to inflict terrible wound to it before he dies on the bottom in the next day or so.. If you do not demolish his brain with the first shot that is - and who is such a crack shot these days to shoot at the brain the size of the an Italian Nut on the first try at at any angle ?!!!

hi les and wellcome to AR, i urge you to go and look at the hunt reports in the african section, i think you will see quite a few crack shots there.

i admit fully that i know f##k all about harpooning anything, as i try to finish it as quick as i can. now from your post, you dont know much about rifle shooting do you ?

best

peter

Les, excellent post on the different areas and regulations and Regulatory Bodies in Moz.

As far as harpooning crocs, I have done one night's "thrown-harpoon" hunting for crocs on Lake Cahorra Bassa on the Zambezi. We didn't see any monsters on that particuliar night, but did harpoon two 9 -10 footers. Both got loose off the poorly made harpoon.
--
I can't imagine how one would eventually kill a BIG croc with just a harpoon, seems like it would take days. Have you been involved in getting any big (13ft+) crocs this way??
Cheers,

RE: crocs in Australia. Les ...you are living in a fantasy land if you think you can run legal non-rifle safari hunts for crocs and charge a trophy fee and get away with it. If your client does the killing of the crocodile ...you are going to wind up in serious trouble.

If it were that simple I would be selling bow hunts for crocs tomorrow...

By your logic I could take the client I am picking up tomorrow out with the local lads and harpoon a dugong (in the traditional way - wink,wink) for shits and giggles... I think not...

quote:

I have said there - hunting birds in season. Later I am saying - the best time to come to NT is this and that month. I dd not not say, did I, that one can do bird shooting at any of those times ??? In NT bird licenses are usually issued at the beginning of September.

True Les you didn't say that but the line I copied and pasted was straight from the web page and it is a very ambiguous, giving the reader the opinion that there are no bag limits on the geese and ducks. Also you state that there are "other plains game free of trophy fee's" I'm assuming the "Plains game" are donkeys and feral horse's?