Hello Guys - From the Southland Times this morninghttp://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,3677325a10,00.html)

quote:

Fog hampers attempts to retrieve tourist's body
23 May 2006

Fog this morning delayed alpine rescue efforts to retrieve the body of an American tourist who fell 300m to his death after stepping out of a helicopter and plummeting down a steep bluff in the Southern Alps.


Wanaka Detective Derek Shaw an initial check by staff this morning decided it was too foggy to send out a rescue team.

Checks would continue to be made every half hour to evaluate whether it was safe to proceed,

The middle-aged man was one of three hunters in a helicopter, which landed about 3pm on a ridge at Albert Burn, about 7km south of the head of Lake Wanaka, yesterday afternoon.

One person had already jumped out of the helicopter, when the American stepped down and somehow slipped and fell over the bluff.

The pilot immediately flew down to where the man had fallen but was unable to land.

However, those on board could clearly see the man was dead.

An alpine rescue team, including one police officer, flew to the area yesterday in an attempt to retrieve the body, but bad weather stopped them from landing.

Mr Shaw said the dead man's family had wanted to contact their family in the United States about the death and had asked for no further assistance from the police

This is an unfortunate reality of hunting in NZ, our mountain country is very unforgiving, as mentioned in an earlier report, his is the fifth visitor to die in our back country in a year. I have hunted in this locality and it is a wonderful and majestic piece of gods earth.

My thoughts to the family of the deceased Hunter, I hope that he was doing something he loved, in the company of good people.

Foster

every time we do any thing we are putting our lives in our hands.... he could have been hit by a bus suppose its a better way to go, on a trip of a lifetime doing somthing you love rather than having a heart attack sitting at a office desk dreaming about it.
my thaughts with the fellas family and frends, would have been tuff sitting in the chopper and seeing him on the ground.

Not to sound too hard hearted but is flying up to a mountain top to be let off to shoot an animal spotted, and in some cases driven, by a Helo ethical hunting?

only if its tied to a tree .... haahahaha

What in the hell does jumping out of a helicopter and falling to your death, have to do with ethical hunting?
Do you walk to the area you hunt in? If you fell out of your Toyota and broke your neck, would that be unethical?
Your idea of unethical and my idea of unethical may differ.

I happen to agree with Mickey1. If you need a helicopter to get to the top of the mountain, you have no business hunting in NZ. The mountains are not that bad.

So TJ, do you think flying to the top of a mountain, stepping off a helicoter, and then shooting an animal is ethical?

And if it is, why isn't it legal in the 49th state?

The sad fact is there are a bunch of fat guys out of shape who die in NZ every year just because they can't climb the hill. My guide had a completely out of shape guy fall on a rock; he died as well.

Hmmmm, I think it is a little soon to be making any judgement calls about ethical or not, there isn't much info here.

I posted this up because I know some folks are interested in NZ hunting and wether or not to go guided or otherwise, and what conditions they might expect.

Analysis of accidents is a good way of learning what may or may not suit your own skills, judgement and experience.

I'd be inclined to resist making judgement calls untill a few more facts come to light, and even then read pretty carefully between the lines.

Cheers - Foster

What a load of CRAP!
A man just died and you are talking about his hunting ethics?
You know nothing about him or the hunt he was on. For all you know they could of been setting up a base camp to hunt from. A MAN AND FELLOW HUNTER JUST DIED. Get off your indignation, you sound like a anti-hunting jerk gloating on your superiority. What happened to a brother in arms and a little common dignity. I hope if anything would ever happen to you or a loved one you would recieve a little more charity and sorrow than deriding a fellow hunter for his not determined ethics

By the way if you hunt outside your own country do you swim or take a plane?

Update on accident -

Body of NZ chopper victim recovered

May 23, 2006 - 3:29PM

Police have retrieved the body of an American tourist who fell 300 metres to his death shortly after stepping out of a helicopter in the Southern Alps on Monday afternoon.

Clifford Wayne Senter, 57, of New Hampshire, was killed when he tripped and fell down a steep bluff while chamois hunting in the Albert Burn area near Lois Peak in the Mount Aspiring National Park.

Wanaka Search and Rescue coordinator, Sergeant Aaron Nicholson, said Senter had been in New Zealand for the past week on a hunting holiday, with his wife and two friends.

They had intended to leave New Zealand on Tuesday to continue their holiday in Australia.

Senter, his friend and a local Wanaka hunting guide had left Wanaka by helicopter about 2.30pm on Monday.

They spotted chamois in the head of the valley, and the helicopter pilot landed on a small flat outcrop.

However, when Senter stepped out of the machine, he slipped on the wet ground and started to slide down the slope with no chance of holding his fall.

Low cloud and fog prevented a search and rescue team from reaching him on Monday night.

A recovery team was deployed first thing on Tuesday and located Senter at the base of the bluff in the afternoon.

It was clear that the fall was not survivable as he had sustained very serious head and body injuries, Nicholson said.

A post mortem examination would be carried out at the Dunedin Mortuary.

© 2006 AAP

Seems to me that this visiting hunter had a very unfortunate accident that claimed his life . the fact that he had just got out of a helicopter is pretty irrelevant - he slipped and fell off a bluff. Could have happened if he had climbed up there on his own , could have got run over crossing the street.... Modus operandi is irrelevant , as is the bullshit about his hunting ethics in using a chopper to get up there.

I have choppered up the mountains too - saved a 3 day bloody hard hike . Does that make me unethical ? I think not .

We should all be saddened by this event , and be thankfull that his body has been recovered and returned to his family.

We should also take on board that mountains anywhere are potentially dangerous terrain , and danger , or death is only a misplaced step away.

You guys with ethics issues might like to leave off for a few days , and give your offered opinions a bit more consideration given the tragic outcome of this experience.

Poor bugger,at least he was out there living the dream.

A sad accident but one can imagine it happening easily in those circumstances, in the heat and the excitement of the moment.

here is my point RM:

I have heard of three deaths in NZ. Every one that fell was dropped off by a helicopter. Two I know were not in the greatest of shape. I don't know about this guy.

But the sad fact is, if you can't hike up the mountain, you apparently risk dying a lot more than those that walk up.

You know, it is legal to shoot right from the helicopter. Why not just do that if ethics don't matter?

quote:

Originally posted by Easy_Rollins:
Poor bugger,at least he was out there living the dream.

I agree! Far better to die doing something you love then for whats in your pocket at the hands of some crack head.

writer:
The original post did not say the hunter was going to jump from the helicopter and shoot the animal. It said he was a hunter. Maybe he was using the helicopter for transportation to the top of the hill? I use a Super Cub as transportation to get to my hunt area. What's the difference?
You asked if I think it is ethical to step off a helicopter and shoot an animal. No, but that has nothing to do with it. My ethics and your ethics may differ. That doesn't make either wrong.
You also mention "legal." Legal and ethics are totally different.
Example.....Lets say, it is legal to shoot a cow moose, but I don't think it is ethical to shoot cows.
Or, it is illegal to land a Super Cub and shoot a moose 6 hours later, I think that is ethical.
The original point was, some unfortunate soul stepped from a helicopter and fell to his death while hunting, which was legal. I say again, What in hell does that have to do with ethical hunting?

MUZZA
TJ

I COULDN'T AGREE MORE
The whole point is someone died
stuff the ethics

quote:

Originally posted by jimbob:
Clifford Wayne Senter, 57, of New Hampshire, was killed when he tripped and fell down a steep bluff while chamois hunting in the Albert Burn area near Lois Peak in the Mount Aspiring

....

They spotted chamois in the head of the valley, and the helicopter pilot landed on a small flat outcrop.

However, when Senter stepped out of the machine, he slipped on the wet ground and started to slide down the slope with no chance of holding his fall.

....

Well the second news quotation answers the question about fair chase or ethical hunting.

NOT!

Pity the chopper didn't land in a safer spot and force them to walk or stalk a bit further.

Sad and unfortunate to loose one's life in such a way.

Maybe the real answer should be something like exists in Alaska. NO HUNTING on the same day as you fly in, by plane or chopper ie not allowing spotting of game or shooting from the chopper.

Might be safer too as the evidence is proving.

Ok, so what is the difference in hunting ethics, between riding around in a truck/lorrie/bakkie, all day to spot your game animal, and using a chopper? As nearly all of the hunting reports I have read here on AR, about OZ NT water buff and feral bull hunts, the game is spotted out of a vehicle. Same thing for safaris in Africa, or at least crossing spoor to follow. None of these hunts are totally done on foot.

Hog Killer

I'd rather die that way than from cancer.

Anyone know who the outfitter was?

Well put Muzza.
Give the poor fellows family and friends time to grieve.

Remember the New Zealand government sees Tahr,Chamois and deer as pests to be shot on sight,they don't care how they are killed.
A fellow hunter has died,this is not the time to talk about hunting ethics.

quote:

Maybe the real answer should be something like exists in Alaska. NO HUNTING on the same day as you fly in, by plane or chopper ie not allowing spotting of game or shooting from the chopper.

Might be safer too as the evidence is proving.

How true Nitro and if the game was really managed as game and not pests just think of it as it really could be.A lot of those chopper hunters are the ones with two fats...wallets and guts.......plus a schedule to cram as many species as poss in as short a time as possible.

Yes, a fellow hunter died. But almost every day some young service member dies in Iraq. No one ever mentions them. To all who think we should shed a tear for some guy who died doing what a bunch of 18 year olds will never do, I say knock yourself out, but I will save my tear jerking moments for those who die selflessly, not those hunting. Sorry if that offends you.

The man died doing something that he wanted to do, ethics be damned. Compatring that to the folks that are dying in Iraq is BS. Those folks are over there doing something they either believe in or are getting paid to do. The man that died on the hunt, knew what he was getting into when he booked the hunt. I really don't thjink any of our service men or women had an option when they signed up.

How many of you would have been this overwrought, had it been a PH or a client that had been nailed by a Cape Buffalo???

The hunter made a mistake. To throw ethics or the war in Iraq into this is pure BS.

The man was doing something he loved, or he would not have been there.

Now if anyone wants to ask the question as to whether we should feel bad for him, or his family, we should feel bad for his family, because this person made the decision to get in that helicopter and take that ride, no one forced him. JMO

I agree it is sad for the "shooters" family and I think the chopper pilot and the outfitter is responsible for landing the "shooters" in an unsafe place. But they were probably trying to land as close to the chamois as possible, probably just over a ridge. In an obviously unsafe place. If the "shooters" had been "hunters" they could have landed safely and walked a good distance and actually hunted the animals.

quote:

The middle-aged man was one of three hunters in a helicopter ...

I disagree with that description. "Shooters" or "trophy wall collectors" is more appropriate.

The difference between "trophy wall collectors" and real "hunters", who only get dropped off on the mountain and then hunt, saving themselves the hard (and long) walk up the mountain. Or as in the old days, actually walk up!

Unfortunate for the family and friends but this story perfectly illustrates what is really happening in NZ. No doubt had the hunt gone well, the fellow would have come back with his "hunting story" to tell all his mates.


***

Myself I am not fit enough to hunt the Kiwi South Island mountains. Looking at them from the bottom I knew they were not for this unfit flatlander unless I was a lot (!) fitter. There is no way I am going to "hunt" by spotting from a chopper or shooting from a chopper. I would toss a "trophy" like that in the garbage.

A chopper as a taxi service, no problem. More time in hunting country that way. JMO.

Its a well known fact that some overseas hunters chase tahr and chamios with the helicopter, land within shooting range effectively and take the shot from the ground.
that way they can say that they didnt shoot it from the helicopter- may as well have.

Its a sad thing that he took a fall, it would not have helped getting out of the machine onto the hill. If he had walked up you get used to the country and get your 'mountain legs' back.

I dont condone this type of 'hunting' but I dont intend to bag this guy about it. Just dont chase the ones I am ground hunting for

To the hunter .. home from the hills ... To anyone who just might qualify as a self righteous son of a bitch ...

quote:

Originally posted by AnotherAZWriter:
Yes, a fellow hunter died. But almost every day some young service member dies in Iraq. No one ever mentions them. To all who think we should shed a tear for some guy who died doing what a bunch of 18 year olds will never do, I say knock yourself out, but I will save my tear jerking moments for those who die selflessly, not those hunting. Sorry if that offends you.

I don't know if I have missed something here, but aren't these pages open for discussions on sporting shooting and related activities?
I have no idea how any one can relate the deaths of soldiers, sad thoughh they are, who are engauged in the occupation of a foreigh land, with sport.
Talk about a none sequitur mate!

As a general comment, I think we should take a moment to think of the relatives and friends of a man whose life has been cut short and keep all sanctomonious drivle to ourselves

Oldun:


My point? The "sanctinmonious drivel" is, in my opinion, anyone who thinks this guys death is a tragedy but don't take 1 minute to see who died today in Iraq.

Many seem to be gushing over this guy but don't think for one minute about all the young men and women sacrificing their lives for this country. On the other hand, here we have a guy who died doing something we all love to do (well, I don't love to hunt from a helicopter). So why feel sorry for the guy? I am sorry, he got to hunt in a land a lot of those same soldiers fighting in Iraq will never get to hunt.

Look, if you want me to take a few minutes to say some prayers or whatever, I will say them for the service members who died today. Not some guy shooting animals from a helicopter.

Your wrong writer.
Nothing was said about the guy "shooting animals from a helicopter." You added that.
The original story said the guy died while hunting.
Read the original post again.

TJ:

Have you ever hunted NZ? Any helicopter that hovers over an area that is that dangerous is only doing so to allow someone to step out of a helicopter and shoot an animal.

The helicopter brought on the ethics debate. But his death is no different than any other hunting death, and you might recall my comments about an African hunting death were quite similar to those here. Hunting is fun. It is not a life and death struggle.

The sad thing is you don't understand

There are a lot of hunters that fit in the "unfit" category, do we deny them the ability to enjoy the bush experience by not using today's transportation means. Worry about your own ethics regime, as ethics are like assholes and if it is legal then it is O.K.


Tasso

AZ, we don't have the draft any more and every man or woman that sacrificed their lives in Iraq did so voluntarly. I salute them for it. I guess if I fall next week in the S Alps and get killed it is because I opt to save time a fly to into the mts so to H*ll with me, eh.. This is just what I wanted to read about a week before my hunting trip to Wanaka NZ.

If you rated the difficulties of hunting an animal from 1 to 10 with 10 being the hardest. I would probably score a Top End water buffalo a 3. A decent free range fallow stag a 4 or 5, a good trophy sambar stag (free range) towards a 9 or 10 (I don't have one either). Chamois and tahr hunted under the rules of fair chase would be up there too.

Using chopper not just as a taxi to get up there, but to spot the trophy and either drop off for the 3 minute walk or shoot from the air, probably a 1/2 (really -2 IMO). Worthless "trophy".

Really I can't believe it how anyone can openly and honestly defend shooting one of the world's premier game animals (chamois and tahr) FROM a chopper and call it hunting. And from emails and PMs I have rec'd I am not the only one.

Might as well sign off on this one. Very sad.

One of the more successful NZ Outfitters estimates that over 50% of all Tahr shot by Foreiginers are shot from a Helicopter or shot within 5 minutes of leaving a Helicopter.

I guess that explains so much of the defense of this type of shooting.

Nitro has a good point when he mentioned all these tyros posing the pics to hide the Helo or the fence. Why do that if you are not ashamed of how you shot the animal?

All of you are missing the whole point of this "ethics" debate .

If someone wants to hunt that way , can afford it , its not illegal , and some other party is willing to supply the service then what is the issue ?

If you choose not to hunt that way then that is your choice , and perfectly fine. Its personal choice , just the same as my ethics are not your ethics , and you cant tell me how I will or wont conduct a hunt.

If you dont like the situation dont come down here and tell US what to do in our back yard. Dont hunt a chamois or a tahr , frankley it wont matter , there are plenty of other hunters who will hunt them in your absence - in a manner that suits their personal ethics , on the ground , in the air, swinging from a trapeze whilst wearing shocking pink leotards.

How other people hunt is none of your f***ing business .

And while I think of it - the whole point of this thread is about an very unfortunate accident that claimed the life of an overseas hunter whilst hunting in the mountains of New Zealand . Lets not forget that a guy is dead from falling off the mountain , how he got there has very little relevance .