quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
doc land?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Not sure gryph if your ? got stuck down or what I presume your question is genuine and not in jest but nevertheless "doc land" is our public land administered by the Department of Conservation. Permits to hunt most of this land over the whole of NZ can be obtained at no cost from their website or local offices around the country. Although I'm not absolutely sure, I think there is more area of DOC land in NZ than there is inhabited or farmed land so plenty of area for free recreational use including hunting on most of it.

Eagle the ? was real,in relation to the size,weight and points for DOC land deer. I am fairly conversant in NZ deer reports and those two are reminiscent of the ranch hunt style of stags.

If they truly came off public land I take my hat off to the hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Matt the point we are trying to make is this -

YOU KNOW that tipping is not in our culture - (yeh I know your spin on restaurants etc. Just give us a break please.)

YOU KNOW that you pay a fair decent wage to your guides for doing a good job.

YOU KNOW that say $100 tip per day (or even $50 a day) is just not necessary in Oz or NZ, compared to the US or Africa.

Why not just post this on your website so that it is clear and transparent to everyone?

Why should an American have to tip you so much when he has already paid in full for a fair & decent wage for doing a really good job?

Is that not taking advantage of the US cultural habit and exploiting it for unfair advantage, over and above the fair remuneration paid for doing a good job????

At the moment you are hedging around and it looks like you are trying to encourage a tipping habit in the hunting industry in Oz & NZ. You are trying to say in a round about way that it is ok! Really? Then why not say it in a straight forward way & see how it looks / sounds to everyone else!

Given our local situation, that is just not on - to put it very mildly.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:


Guides and outfitters with weak character are taking advantage of their clients by accepting tips from foreign tourists.

That is just a big load of wank. I don't suggest or mention tipping to clients EVER - but I sure as hell wouldn't deny my staff accepting a gratuity from an appreciative client.

The hypocrisy is clear here too - some say its OK for clients to leave a gift but not a tip... wank, wank, wank.

good post. some sense. not just wank wank

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
Eagle the ? was real,in relation to the size,weight and points for DOC land deer. I am fairly conversant in NZ deer reports and those two are reminiscent of the ranch hunt style of stags.

If they truly came off public land I take my hat off to the hunters.

Ah ah gotcha

Oooy Gryph

Just look at those pics I posted earlier - pure doc land heads. A bigger one was missed during the trip. 3 or 4 hunters hunted for 2 weeks at 5 different locations around Queenstown. They flew into one or two spots at least.

Such heads are now starting to show up pretty regularly in the South Island if people are prepared to work hard in that wild country.

These guys NEVER do guided hunts!

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
Eagle the ? was real,in relation to the size,weight and points for DOC land deer. I am fairly conversant in NZ deer reports and those two are reminiscent of the ranch hunt style of stags.

If they truly came off public land I take my hat off to the hunters.

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Do not get me wrong. I also dislike this system of subsidising poor wages And yes it is not custom in our country's thankfully, however is someone gets pleasure by tipping then so be it..

American tipping is not principally about subsiding poor wages - it is about rewarding good service. Many Americans talk about not following tipping 'norms' that could reward bad service - you didn't like your meal, service, shit cab driver - dont leave a tip. Pretty simple...

Anyhow - I am not going to get into this any more - I am comfortable with my policy (not mentioning tips), some of you dicks might see that as being dishonest - I don't care - you are entitled to your opinions.

I guess it isn't really any surprise that Kiwi guides wont weigh into this - apart from the fact they are likely busy actually hunting at the moment - why would they subject themselves to the disdain of their countrymen?

I reiterate naki.
"
If they truly came off public land I take my hat off to the hunters.
There is a fair amount of scepticism these days when multi pointed tip free monsters show up on DOC land.

I`m surprised that the Kiwi boys haven't commented on such Doc deer.

There is a four page thread on this in the NZ forum.

http://www.fishnhunt.co.nz/for...B.cgi?num=1461630587

AND the hunting mob has red deer stags just like Nakis Doclanders lol.

http://www.nzhuntingsafaris.co...ame-hunting/red-stag

Gryph

The stags I posted are classic wild genes configuration and not the artificial palmations you get from velvet industry studs.

If you read Bruce Banwell's books with photos he could often identify the genetics from certain mountain ranges and catchments, based on the original stock released.

I am no expert on this but there are others who are & can tell a wild head from a stud. That website you linked has some obvious velvet studs.

In the last 15 years some properties have let such farm deer go wild and that has affected the genetic. That could be the case in the Queenstown area that these stags are from.

But then, you look at the Wairarapa head shot near Featherstone in the late 90s. I have seen that head, shot by a local petrol station owner and it was a typical local head certified (probably also scored by) by Bruce Banwell - but a new NZ record after about 40 years or so. That was in the NORTH Island!!!! The catch was that it was very hard country to hunt and access was only through private land. Nobody had even heard of that stag before as no one hunted that area except along the fringes.

The people who were on this hunt I posted are totally trustworthy and I would bet my life on Barry.

Sorry for the hijack. Back to tipping ...

Thanks Matt,

Your final reply says much.

You are comfortable with your policy, without ever having explained despite repeated questioning, Why you would hold such a stance.

I have always believed that if a genuine straight up answer is avoided, then there is cause for concern.

Im glad you recognise the "disdain of their country men."
I hope those reading this with interest, will be asking why such a disdain should exist? After all if it was an upright above board industry that had some positive outcomes for NZ hunting, Would that disdain exist?
The short answer is no.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Do not get me wrong. I also dislike this system of subsidising poor wages And yes it is not custom in our country's thankfully, however is someone gets pleasure by tipping then so be it..

American tipping is not principally about subsiding poor wages - it is about rewarding good service. Many Americans talk about not following tipping 'norms' that could reward bad service - you didn't like your meal, service, shit cab driver - dont leave a tip. Pretty simple...

Anyhow - I am not going to get into this any more - I am comfortable with my policy (not mentioning tips), some of you dicks might see that as being dishonest - I don't care - you are entitled to your opinions.

I guess it isn't really any surprise that Kiwi guides wont weigh into this - apart from the fact they are likely busy actually hunting at the moment - why would they subject themselves to the disdain of their countrymen?

A disdain that is well earned. (And 'hunting' should be in quotes when referring to them.) I am glad you've figured that much out from away over there in Australia. Now your on the right page with actual New Zealanders.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Gryph

The stags I posted are classic wild genes configuration and not the artificial palmations you get from velvet industry studs.

If you read Bruce Banwell's books with photos he could often identify the genetics from certain mountain ranges and catchments, based on the original stock released.

I am no expert on this but there are others who are & can tell a wild head from a stud. That website you linked has some obvious velvet studs.

In the last 15 years some properties have let such farm deer go wild and that has affected the genetic. That could be the case in the Queenstown area that these stags are from.

But then, you look at the Wairarapa head shot near Featherstone in the late 90s. I have seen that head, shot by a local petrol station owner and it was a typical local head certified (probably also scored by) by Bruce Banwell - but a new NZ record after about 40 years or so. That was in the NORTH Island!!!! The catch was that it was very hard country to hunt and access was only through private land. Nobody had even heard of that stag before as no one hunted that area except along the fringes.

The people who were on this hunt I posted are totally trustworthy and I would bet my life on Barry.

Sorry for the hijack. Back to tipping ...

Nakihunter, if you say those heads are kosher then I accept you at your word, we are gentlemen. I have a friend who is writing something about wild trophy heads in NZ, do you think I could let him talk to you, or the hunter in your picture?

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by ozhunter:
Do not get me wrong. I also dislike this system of subsidising poor wages And yes it is not custom in our country's thankfully, however is someone gets pleasure by tipping then so be it..

American tipping is not principally about subsiding poor wages - it is about rewarding good service. Many Americans talk about not following tipping 'norms' that could reward bad service - you didn't like your meal, service, shit cab driver - dont leave a tip. Pretty simple...

Anyhow - I am not going to get into this any more - I am comfortable with my policy (not mentioning tips), some of you dicks might see that as being dishonest - I don't care - you are entitled to your opinions.

I guess it isn't really any surprise that Kiwi guides wont weigh into this - apart from the fact they are likely busy actually hunting at the moment - why would they subject themselves to the disdain of their countrymen?

A disdain that is well earned. (And 'hunting' should be in quotes when referring to them.) I am glad you've figured that much out from away over there in Australia. Now your on the right page with actual New Zealanders.

I understand that you wholly despise the New Zealand hunting industry.

Sure mate.

PM me & I will give you my contact info.

My mate is one of my oldest and most trusted friends in NZ. Known him now for 20 years - the families are friends. We know each others kids well. I trust you get the picture.

There is no way Barry would pull one on me. Again he has a very high reputation in the trade that he works - with national award recognition two years in a row for the great job he has done not just for his trade business but for the national industry!

I came to NZ as a 35 year old and shot a centre fire rifle for the first time. So my fitness and hunting skills are no where near the tough Kiwis who hunt such wild country.

Yes I have paid to hunt on remote properties that border on bush & I have actually hunted the deer - not just shot them. They were all meat animals and cost me about $15 to $100 per day. Some were Maori bush blocks that you fly into, some were with logged over grown native bush and some were farms with bush mixed. All were free range wild deer.

My friend on the other hand refuses to pay for hunting rights - period. Apart from the red stags he shot a pretty nice fallow buck a few years ago in the South Island - hard hunting on high country station with no deer fences. He also shot 2 sambar stags over 24" in pine plantation ballot blocks & on a far with fringe bush. Totally free range wild deer.

The BIG issue is that these are ALL private access areas. He cant even take me into most of those spots as he is himself a guest.

I guess that is why such heard are still around!

quote:

Originally posted by Carlsen Highway:

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Gryph

The stags I posted are classic wild genes configuration and not the artificial palmations you get from velvet industry studs.

If you read Bruce Banwell's books with photos he could often identify the genetics from certain mountain ranges and catchments, based on the original stock released.

I am no expert on this but there are others who are & can tell a wild head from a stud. That website you linked has some obvious velvet studs.

In the last 15 years some properties have let such farm deer go wild and that has affected the genetic. That could be the case in the Queenstown area that these stags are from.

But then, you look at the Wairarapa head shot near Featherstone in the late 90s. I have seen that head, shot by a local petrol station owner and it was a typical local head certified (probably also scored by) by Bruce Banwell - but a new NZ record after about 40 years or so. That was in the NORTH Island!!!! The catch was that it was very hard country to hunt and access was only through private land. Nobody had even heard of that stag before as no one hunted that area except along the fringes.

The people who were on this hunt I posted are totally trustworthy and I would bet my life on Barry.

Sorry for the hijack. Back to tipping ...

Nakihunter, if you say those heads are kosher then I accept you at your word, we are gentlemen. I have a friend who is writing something about wild trophy heads in NZ, do you think I could let him talk to you, or the hunter in your picture?

Matt

I guess Donald Trump should get you to script his propaganda!

Who has said here that they have contempt for the ENTIRE NZ Hunting Industry? Do you put your personal reputation on that comment? Really? Honestly?

The GUIDING industry in NZ is a very tiny, minuscule part of the ENTIRE NZ Hunting Industry.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Matt

I guess Donald Trump should get you to script his propaganda!

Who has said here that they have contempt for the ENTIRE NZ Hunting Industry? Do you put your personal reputation on that comment? Really? Honestly?

The GUIDING industry in NZ is a very tiny, minuscule part of the ENTIRE NZ Hunting Industry.

Well 'Carlsen Highway' thinks disdain for (all) guides is well-earned and that safari hunting in NZ should be written like this - 'hunting' - he hasn't corrected me and I can read and interpret the English language fairly well. We can only assume he was referring to everyone in the industry.

Matt

That is BS.

Everyone in the industry includes supplies and clients.

If he meant everyone, it might be interpreted as "everyone in the GUIDING industry". He certainly did not say "Everyone in the HUNTING Industry"!

Nice try Matt "Trump"!!

Pardon me, clearly I meant the safari hunting industry.

As I stated earlier, I have taken great interest in this thread since I will be hunting in Australia this summer. After what I have read, it seems like tipping is more common and accepted in Australia and less so in New Zealand.

Matt Graham has been kind enough to explain his position stating, "...but I sure as hell wouldn't deny my staff accepting a gratuity from an appreciative client."

So, without stirring the pot too much, I was wondering if the guides who oppose tipping would turn down a tip of say $700 if it was offered? Would you insist you staff turn down the money as well? To be honest, I think I would be insulted as that amount of money does not come easy for me and is given with great appreciation.

$700 bucks..sheeeit I would take you hunting for that ha ha..no tips!

Matt - BS again.

That is Not "Hunting" at all. Most of the criticism of the GUIDING industry is to do with unethical practices like shooting from helicopters, illegal live capture, shooting farm stud stags behind high fence in a tiny paddock, arrogant elitism, ripping off visiting international hunters without disclosing all facts, colluding with International dictators' family and bullying locals ..... the list goes on.

That is NOT hunting Mr. Trump!

So the challenge to you is to front up and disclose all facts including our "no tips culture" and that you pay a full and fair wage for a really good job and that your prices include ALL costs (including tips).

The challenge to you is to stop this CORRUPTION of trying to introduce the idea that tipping ok in Australia & NZ.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:
Pardon me, clearly I meant the safari hunting industry.

quote:

Originally posted by SDSpink:
As I stated earlier, I have taken great interest in this thread since I will be hunting in Australia this summer. After what I have read, it seems like tipping is more common and accepted in Australia and less so in New Zealand.

Matt Graham has been kind enough to explain his position stating, "...but I sure as hell wouldn't deny my staff accepting a gratuity from an appreciative client."

So, without stirring the pot too much, I was wondering if the guides who oppose tipping would turn down a tip of say $700 if it was offered? Would you insist you staff turn down the money as well? To be honest, I think I would be insulted as that amount of money does not come easy for me and is given with great appreciation.

Hi SDSpink

No guide or outfitter that I know of would object to you tipping them or their staff in NZ or Australia, a lot of guides are not paid well or even paid at all in some cases, as some fill in/part time or apprentice guides only get there living costs covered (and the experience) while at camp & really appreciate a tip at the end or a 24/7 hunt .

$700 is a larger tip !

Wrong - the attitude towards tips is similar in both countries & guiding circles you do get some who are just plain greedy & dishonest, and will try to milk the unwary client.

Why offer $700 tips when you have paid a full and fair price that includes ALL costs including gratuities for top quality service?

You are missing the point here BIG time. We just do not have that practice as part of our culture. Our laws insist that you pay minimum $15.25 or so for any job including waitresing.

Expecting or encouraging extra on top of that is just greed and goes against our own national culture & ethics.

Very few human being will refuse money or gifts in a service situation, anywhere on earth.

Not only are American clients getting cheated, but they are also disrupting our local situation and creating really bad habits.

quote:

Originally posted by SDSpink:
As I stated earlier, I have taken great interest in this thread since I will be hunting in Australia this summer. After what I have read, it seems like tipping is more common and accepted in Australia and less so in New Zealand.

Matt Graham has been kind enough to explain his position stating, "...but I sure as hell wouldn't deny my staff accepting a gratuity from an appreciative client."

So, without stirring the pot too much, I was wondering if the guides who oppose tipping would turn down a tip of say $700 if it was offered? Would you insist you staff turn down the money as well? To be honest, I think I would be insulted as that amount of money does not come easy for me and is given with great appreciation.

Sarge

If a guide is not being paid a fair wage, that is a dishonest operation.

It is illegal to not pay minimum wage.

quote:

Originally posted by Sarg:

quote:

Originally posted by SDSpink:
As I stated earlier, I have taken great interest in this thread since I will be hunting in Australia this summer. After what I have read, it seems like tipping is more common and accepted in Australia and less so in New Zealand.

Matt Graham has been kind enough to explain his position stating, "...but I sure as hell wouldn't deny my staff accepting a gratuity from an appreciative client."

So, without stirring the pot too much, I was wondering if the guides who oppose tipping would turn down a tip of say $700 if it was offered? Would you insist you staff turn down the money as well? To be honest, I think I would be insulted as that amount of money does not come easy for me and is given with great appreciation.

Hi SDSpink

No guide or outfitter that I know of would object to you tipping them or their staff in NZ or Australia, a lot of guides are not paid well or even paid at all in some cases, as some fill in/part time or apprentice guides only get there living costs covered (and the experience) while at camp & really appreciate a tip at the end or a 24/7 hunt .

$700 is a larger tip !

So that is the issue right there, and its why most of us Kiwi's are against the practice.
If someone in a vulnerable position is working at below legal minimum wage, they are being exploited! That they maybe able to survive on tips is not justification. It doesnt matter what industry. Those shoddy operators who are doing such a thing are in all likelyhood giving those vulnerable staff an idea that their wages is in tips. At the same time they are undercutting those operators who are paying a fair wage! Its a spiral of decay!
in a country like ours you are doing harm if you tip Full Stop! It may make you feel good about yourself, but its harmful to NZ, to the young and exploitable, and to the industry.

Guides don't punch a time card, most are private contractors and most experienced guides that I know in AU/NZ do get the equivalent of regular adult pay.

There are lots of situations in Australia where work experience, working holiday and training situations are provided for in outdoor industries. Those people choose to undertake that work - they are not forced to do it.

Q:There are lots of situations in Australia where work experience, working holiday and training situations are provided for in outdoor industries.EQ

Matthew thats one thing that erks me properly...why? Because there are those unscrupulous operators in every facet of industry and commerce (not just hunting) that make the most of and take advantage of those affected.Instead of paying a wage,super,holidays etc.
Oh work experience eh? Yeah right!

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
Q:There are lots of situations in Australia where work experience, working holiday and training situations are provided for in outdoor industries.EQ

Matthew thats one thing that erks me properly...why? Because there are those unscrupulous operators in every facet of industry and commerce (not just hunting) that make the most of and take advantage of those affected.Instead of paying a wage,super,holidays etc.
Oh work experience eh? Yeah right!

My eldest (16) just got a pay rise in his service industry part-time job - $12/hour, no penalty rates, some shifts are only 2 1/2 hours. Is he being exploited - Yes. Is he thankful for the work and experience - Yes.

that sounds just like Macca`s

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
that sounds just like Macca`s

KFC to be exact - his choice if he wants all the gear he has his eye on. Good experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
Q:There are lots of situations in Australia where work experience, working holiday and training situations are provided for in outdoor industries.EQ

Matthew thats one thing that erks me properly...why? Because there are those unscrupulous operators in every facet of industry and commerce (not just hunting) that make the most of and take advantage of those affected.Instead of paying a wage,super,holidays etc.
Oh work experience eh? Yeah right!

My eldest (16) just got a pay rise in his service industry part-time job - $12/hour, no penalty rates, some shifts are only 2 1/2 hours. Is he being exploited - Yes. Is he thankful for the work and experience - Yes.

But he is earning a minimum wage and has the chance to take up other work outside the hours he is doing.

And hes not relying on tips. Would you advise him to take an apprentiship that relied on tips?
is it what you want to see for your industry?

quote:

Originally posted by shankspony:

quote:

Originally posted by Matt Graham:

quote:

Originally posted by gryphon1:
Q:There are lots of situations in Australia where work experience, working holiday and training situations are provided for in outdoor industries.EQ

Matthew thats one thing that erks me properly...why? Because there are those unscrupulous operators in every facet of industry and commerce (not just hunting) that make the most of and take advantage of those affected.Instead of paying a wage,super,holidays etc.
Oh work experience eh? Yeah right!

My eldest (16) just got a pay rise in his service industry part-time job - $12/hour, no penalty rates, some shifts are only 2 1/2 hours. Is he being exploited - Yes. Is he thankful for the work and experience - Yes.

But he is earning a minimum wage and has the chance to take up other work outside the hours he is doing.

And hes not relying on tips. Would you advise him to take an apprentiship that relied on tips?
is it what you want to see for your industry?

It's pretty hard for a guide to top-up their earning with a second job - while on a mountain top.

I would advise my son to do whatever job/career he enjoyed the most. IME - That is why most guides get into the industry.

Where did fujotupu's very relevant post go, I have Nakihunter on ignore as he knows not of what he speaks ?

Matt, your answer side steps the question I asked and the point.

Would you advise your son to take a non paying job in an industry that has no recognised formal qualification as a result at its end?
What would be your reaction to being asked to work only on the promise of tips in a country that doesnt largely accept tipping?

quote:

Originally posted by Sarg:
Where did fujotupu's very relevant post go, I have Nakihunter on ignore as he knows not of what he speaks ?

I voluntarily removed it as Nakihunter is full of crap with his socialist ideology.
When he talks of "our culture" to which culture is he referring to - his ethnic or acquired?

If he wants to do good and change the face of the world he ought to go and change the social system in his homeland which is in serious need of a facelift - where child labour is the order of the day, where wages are less than a pittance, where "baksheesh" is gladly and gratefully accepted, where living conditions are not fit for dogs, etc. etc.

Yet he has the balls to come and preach about the ills of colonialism, tipping and business transparency?

Ouch!

Thats two in this thread ha ha.

My culture is where I live and which community I am part of. So I am part of my Indian heritage. I am also part of my NZ environment that I have had the honour of enjoying for the last 24 years.

Check out a guy called Rabindranath Tagore who was globally regocnised. He said that Nationalism can amount to anti humanism!

Your racits hate is evidence of that.

The baksheesh system in India was introduced by the British as they implemented the "Divide and Rule" policy. It has now been corrupted into a fine art that only you Americans have managed to beat!

Ask Trump how he had to pay double the going rate for a property owned by the Mafia so he could do his deal!

quote:

Originally posted by fujotupu:

quote:

Originally posted by Sarg:
Where did fujotupu's very relevant post go, I have Nakihunter on ignore as he knows not of what he speaks ?

I voluntarily removed it as Nakihunter is full of crap with his socialist ideology.
When he talks of "our culture" to which culture is he referring to - his ethnic or acquired?

If he wants to do good and change the face of the world he ought to go and change the social system in his homeland which is in serious need of a facelift - where child labour is the order of the day, where wages are less than a pittance, where "baksheesh" is gladly and gratefully accepted, where living conditions are not fit for dogs, etc. etc.

Yet he has the balls to come and preach about the ills of colonialism, tipping and business transparency?

As someone who has been told to go back to his homeland as well, despite been 5th generation to be born here, I really dislike the kind of comment from Fujo as well. Especially given he doesn't tell us where hes from.

I'm a late entrant to this discussion. But please when you come here to hunt, respect our culture. It is not part of culture to tip.
Its as simple as that.