You have a very agile mind Antelope Sniper............selective in argument,broad in base , and quite agile.
I hope you are using it to more gain than this thread.

Very interesting thread & useful to critique various parties thinking , debate strategies & baiting strategies.

I'll maybe pop back in in a few months & see how you lot are doing solving the great mysteries of mankind, science,faith & belief.

I think the resolution of this topic is beyond the pay-grade of anyone on AR.

It is also a difficult conversation because of the variations of belief. I believe there is a creator because of the depth and detail of the organized universe. Anyone here that doesn't believe the universe is organized and well ordered?
By the same token I don't believe some dead guys 2 to 4 thousand years ago were contacted by god or his representitives and given the straight scoop.
It' a conundrum.

Antelope Sniper,

Quid Pro Quo...

you have not answered mine about the Big Bang VS Matter/Energy yet. You first?

God WILL not coexist with evil. That is the truth behind Hell, separation from God for all of eternity.

Rich

quote:

God WILL not coexist with evil.

Then how do you explain God committing evil?

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
Antelope Sniper,

are you avoiding answering my question? Tell me the Big Bang Theory in a paragraph or less if you would.

I know you know the answer. Don't be afraid just share it with me and the audience, please. Put Warrior and I in our place.

regards,

Rich

Rich
Can you prove the universe cannot be any other way?
Einstein's theory has shown that matter = energy. You can have one or the other or both at the same time. Cannot you prove that there has always been matter? Is it possible that once all there was was energy?

SR,

the difference between our two conflicting belief systems is that Christians say "God is beyond our imagination to conceive..."; and Evolutionists/BBT believers are trying to prove their case that there is nothing beyond things as they came into being and evolved.

Again, the ant compared to us. Us compared to God is an even greater step.

BBT says there was nothing, then all of a sudden there was.
The only difference there is who or what caused it. What caused the Big Bang and where did it come from?

Evolution says things evolved from nothing to us over billions of years. The issue there is that there are no transitional models in existence. Every step is distinct, as if someone said "Nope, that won't work. What if I change this_______?"

Then, we have the issue with matter/energy. Can neither be created or destroyed. Says who, and where is any proof? Either the BBT is a lie or the creation/destruction of matter/energy is. They are diametrically opposed. One has to be wrong. Has to be...

I believe in God, and on a purely human level I like the idea better. If there is no God and no hereafter, then our only focus during our brief existence should be self-centered and narcissistic.

Rich

Antimatter being studied

Most of you believe only what you were raised to believe.

If the human race were extinct what purpose would your god serve? None

It is very possible that the human race will one day be extinct.
The belief in god is doomed to extinction too.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Antimatter being studied

Most of you believe only what you were raised to believe.

If the human race were extinct what purpose would your god serve? None

It is very possible that the human race will one day be extinct.
The belief in god is doomed to extinction too.

You seem to have reversed cause and effect.

The universe was created long (best guess 15 billion years)before man as we know him existed. Unless we leave the planet it will exist for billions of years after we are gone.

This will have no measurable effect on the creator.

I am back from Whitetail hunting, between the wolves and mt. lions, no luck

reread through these 6 pages, I missed something.

Antelope Sniper, you asked,
"Then how do you explain God committing evil"?

refresh your thought for me. I know of no known evil done or thought by God.

quote:

You have a very agile mind Antelope Sniper............selective in argument,broad in base , and quite agile.
I hope you are using it to more gain than this thread

Thanks Denis, I appreciate the complement. I"m currently in the job market, so inbetween resume and cover letter rewrites, this thread has helped keep the cobwebs from forming between my ears. Thanks again.

quote:

Quid Pro Quo...

you have not answered mine about the Big Bang VS Matter/Energy yet. You first?

Actually Rich, I have answered that. The various versions of string theory, M theory, and Brane Cosmology postulate the existance of matter/energy beyond our universe. Hence the reorginization of this matter/energy, weather it's through a brane collision or other means is not a creation of matter/energy, but more of a transdimentional transfer of energy, and not an event unique to the creation of our universe. As for which one of these theories is the most accurate, well, I"m still an agnostic. 5 dimentions vs 10, or 13?, bubbles vs branes? In this area the science needs some time to marinate. We will have to see what actual experiments support.

Idaho, your claim that there are not transitional fossils is beyond obsurd:

The following are fossil transitions between species and genera:


a.Human ancestry. There are many fossils of human ancestors, and the differences between species are so gradual that it is not always clear where to draw the lines between them.


b.The horns of titanotheres (extinct Cenozoic mammals) appear in progressively larger sizes, from nothing to prominence. Other head and neck features also evolved. These features are adaptations for head-on ramming analogous to sheep behavior (Stanley 1974).


c.A gradual transitional fossil sequence connects the foraminifera Globigerinoides trilobus and Orbulina universa (Pearson et al. 1997). O. universa, the later fossil, features a spherical test surrounding a "Globigerinoides-like" shell, showing that a feature was added, not lost. The evidence is seen in all major tropical ocean basins. Several intermediate morphospecies connect the two species, as may be seen in the figure included in Lindsay (1997).


d.The fossil record shows transitions between species of Phacops (a trilobite; Phacops rana is the Pennsylvania state fossil; Eldredge 1972; 1974; Strapple 1978).


e.Planktonic forminifera (Malmgren et al. 1984). This is an example of punctuated gradualism. A ten-million-year foraminifera fossil record shows long periods of stasis and other periods of relatively rapid but still gradual morphologic change.


f.Fossils of the diatom Rhizosolenia are very common (they are mined as diatomaceous earth), and they show a continuous record of almost two million years which includes a record of a speciation event (Miller 1999, 44-45).


g.Lake Turkana mollusc species (Lewin 1981).


h.Cenozoic marine ostracodes (Cronin 1985).


i.The Eocene primate genus Cantius (Gingerich 1976, 1980, 1983).


j.Scallops of the genus Chesapecten show gradual change in one "ear" of their hinge over about 13 million years. The ribs also change (Pojeta and Springer 2001; Ward and Blackwelder 1975).


k.Gryphaea (coiled oysters) become larger and broader but thinner and flatter during the Early Jurassic (Hallam 1968).

The following are fossil transitionals between families, orders, and classes:


a.Human ancestry. Australopithecus, though its leg and pelvis bones show it walked upright, had a bony ridge on the forearm, probably vestigial, indicative of knuckle walking (Richmond and Strait 2000).


b.Dinosaur-bird transitions.


c.Haasiophis terrasanctus is a primitive marine snake with well-developed hind limbs. Although other limbless snakes might be more ancestral, this fossil shows a relationship of snakes with limbed ancestors (Tchernov et al. 2000). Pachyrhachis is another snake with legs that is related to Haasiophis (Caldwell and Lee 1997).


d.The jaws of mososaurs are also intermediate between snakes and lizards. Like the snake's stretchable jaws, they have highly flexible lower jaws, but unlike snakes, they do not have highly flexible upper jaws. Some other skull features of mososaurs are intermediate between snakes and primitive lizards (Caldwell and Lee 1997; Lee et al. 1999; Tchernov et al. 2000).


e.Transitions between mesonychids and whales.


f.Transitions between fish and tetrapods.


g.Transitions from condylarths (a kind of land mammal) to fully aquatic modern manatees. In particular, Pezosiren portelli is clearly a sirenian, but its hind limbs and pelvis are unreduced (Domning 2001a, 2001b).


h.Runcaria, a Middle Devonian plant, was a precursor to seed plants. It had all the qualities of seeds except a solid seed coat and a system to guide pollen to the seed (Gerrienne et al. 2004).


i.A bee, Melittosphex burmensis, from Early Cretaceous amber, has primitive characteristics expected from a transition between crabronid wasps and extant bees (Poinar and Danforth 2006).

The following are fossil transitionals between kingdoms and phyla:


a.The Cambrian fossils Halkiera and Wiwaxia have features that connect them with each other and with the modern phyla of Mollusca, Brachiopoda, and Annelida. In particular, one species of halkieriid has brachiopod-like shells on the dorsal side at each end. This is seen also in an immature stage of the living brachiopod species Neocrania. It has setae identical in structure to polychaetes, a group of annelids. Wiwaxia and Halkiera have the same basic arrangement of hollow sclerites, an arrangement that is similar to the chaetae arrangement of polychaetes. The undersurface of Wiwaxia has a soft sole like a mollusk's foot, and its jaw looks like a mollusk's mouth. Aplacophorans, which are a group of primitive mollusks, have a soft body covered with spicules similar to the sclerites of Wiwaxia (Conway Morris 1998, 185-195).


b.Cambrian and Precambrain fossils Anomalocaris and Opabinia are transitional between arthropods and lobopods.


c.An ancestral echinoderm has been found that is intermediate between modern echinoderms and other deuterostomes (Shu et al. 2004).
Links:
Hunt, Kathleen. 1994-1997. Transitional vertebrate fossils FAQ. http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html

Miller, Keith B. n.d. Taxonomy, transitional forms, and the fossil record. http://www.asa3.org/ASA/resources/Miller.html

Patterson, Bob. 2002. Transitional fossil species and modes of speciation. http://www.origins.tv/darwin/transitionals.htm

Thompson, Tim. 1999. On creation science and transitional fossils. http://www.tim-thompson.com/trans-fossils.html
References:
1.Caldwell, M. W. and M. S. Y. Lee, 1997. A snake with legs from the marine Cretaceous of the Middle East. Nature 386: 705-709.
2.Conway Morris, Simon, 1998. The Crucible of Creation, Oxford University Press.
3.Cronin, T. M., 1985. Speciation and stasis in marine ostracoda: climatic modulation of evolution. Science 227: 60-63.
4.Domning, Daryl P., 2001a. The earliest known fully quadupedal sirenian. Nature 413: 625-627.
5.Domning, Daryl P., 2001b. New "intermediate form" ties seacows firmly to land. Reports of the National Center for Science Education 21(5-6): 38-42.
6.Eldredge, Niles, 1972. Systematics and evolution of Phacops rana (Green, 1832) and Phacops iowensis Delo, 1935 (Trilobita) from the Middle Devonian of North America. Bulletin of the American Museum of Natural History 147(2): 45-114.
7.Eldredge, Niles, 1974. Stability, diversity, and speciation in Paleozoic epeiric seas. Journal of Paleontology 48(3): 540-548.
8.Gerrienne, P. et al. 2004. Runcaria, a Middle Devonian seed plant precursor. Science 306: 856-858.
9.Gingerich, P. D., 1976. Paleontology and phylogeny: Patterns of evolution of the species level in early Tertiary mammals. American Journal of Science 276(1): 1-28.
10.Gingerich, P. D., 1980. Evolutionary patterns in early Cenozoic mammals. Annual Review of Earth and Planetary Sciences 8: 407-424.
11.Gingerich, P. D., 1983. Evidence for evolution from the vertebrate fossil record. Journal of Geological Education 31: 140-144.
12.Hallam, A., 1968. Morphology, palaeoecology and evolution of the genus Gryphaea in the British Lias. Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London B 254: 91-128.
13.Lee, Michael S. Y., Gorden L. Bell Jr. and Michael W. Caldwell, 1999. The origin of snake feeding. Nature 400: 655-659.
14.Lewin, R., 1981. No gap here in the fossil record. Science 214: 645-646.
15.Lindsay, Don, 1997. A smooth fossil transition: Orbulina, a foram. http://www.don-lindsay-archive...eation/orbulina.html
16.Malmgren, B. A., W. A. Berggren and G. P. Lohmann, 1984. Species formation through punctuated gradualism in planktonic foraminifera. Science 225: 317-319.
17.Miller, Kenneth R., 1999. Finding Darwin's God. New York: HarperCollins.
18.Pearson, P. N., N. J. Shackleton and M. A. Hall. 1997. Stable isotopic evidence for the sympatric divergence of Globigerinoides trilobus and Orbulina universa (planktonic foraminifera). Journal of the Geological Society, London 154: 295-302.
19.Poinar, G. O. Jr. and B. N. Danforth. 2006. A fossil bee from Early Cretaceous Burmese amber. Science 314: 614.
20.Richmond B. G. and D. S. Strait, 2000. Evidence that humans evolved from a knuckle-walking ancestor. Nature 404: 382-385. See also Collard, M. and L. C. Aiello, 2000. From forelimbs to two legs. Nature 404: 339-340.
21.Shu, D.-G. et al., 2004. Ancestral echinoderms from the Chengjiang deposits of China. Nature 430: 422-428.
22.Stanley, Steven M., 1974. Relative growth of the titanothere horn: A new approach to an old problem. Evolution 28: 447-457.
23.Strapple, R. R., 1978. Tracing three trilobites. Earth Science 31(4): 149-152.
24.Tchernov, E. et al., 2000. A fossil snake with limbs. Science 287: 2010-2012. See also Greene, H. W. and D. Cundall, 2000. Limbless tetrapods and snakes with legs. Science 287: 1939-1941.
25.Ward, L. W. and B. W. Blackwelder, 1975. Chesapecten, A new genus of Pectinidae (Mollusca: Bivalvia) from the Miocene and Pliocene of eastern North America. U.S. Geological Survey Professional Paper 861.

quote:

Again, the ant compared to us. Us compared to God is an even greater step.

I believe in God, and on a purely human level I like the idea better. If there is no God and no hereafter, then our only focus during our brief existence should be self-centered and narcissistic.

Rich

Rich, I must disagree with you on this these points. We can contemplate God, and the alternatives to God, the ant cannot contemplate us.

Your second statement is even more disturbing. Without God we could not love our children and care about out neighbors? Really???

You only care about your grandkids, your coworkers, and your colleagues because God tells you to??? Really??

Sorry Rich, but I just can't belive that. I believe your kindness for others in an intergal part of your being and is not dependant upon God. Empathy is understanding how your actions effect others, it's not about understanding God. After all, God was not very empathetic during the 31 genocides during the Israelite Invasion of Canaan.

Mother Nature is neutral, and nature will kill you every chance she gets. It's those who can get along with each other, and work together toward a common goal that thrived during the stone ages, and now.
With a strong enough belief in God, all of life is a comedy, for God will make everything workout in the end (until he kills us all during Armageddon), but without God, the future is not certain, and it becomes the duty of every man to do his best to preserve Civilization, Family, and Country. True enlightenment is choosing to do the right thing, not because some great being told you to, not for an eternal reward, or to avoid an eternity of hell, but just because you know it's right.

quote:

Originally posted by Swamp_Fox:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Antimatter being studied

Most of you believe only what you were raised to believe.

If the human race were extinct what purpose would your god serve? None

It is very possible that the human race will one day be extinct.
The belief in god is doomed to extinction too.

You seem to have reversed cause and effect.

The universe was created long (best guess 15 billion years)before man as we know him existed. Unless we leave the planet it will exist for billions of years after we are gone.

This will have no measurable effect on the creator.

No man No god
That is how it works

As science moves on an learns more, those who believe in god will be stuck with the same old unchanging story until the end of man.

Antelope Sniper,

what conversations have you had with ants to substantiate their cognitive limits?

The multitude of examples you posted all show differences that make them distinct and separate. I do appreciate the examples though. Looking them up was a fun way to pass a dreary day here. Sadly, none of them "segued" into others of a similar but "improved" version.

As far as the Human Imperative to cooperate being innate, what Balderdash. My wife and I have had several children, and many grandchildren. None of them were born with any iota of humanity or "goodness" in them. On the contrary, it took us years to convince them not to soil themselves continually. It took years longer to teach them to treat others with any sense of "fairness". "Quid Pro Quo" is anathema to all of us early on. All human beings are born totally self-centered, selfish, and with no regard for the well being of others. As parents, teachers, etc, we have to convince them that: "In order to get along (in life, ie survive), you have to get along (with others of your species)...". If there were any goodness in us at birth, the world would be a much better place. It is all learned behavior.

Why is it that you abide by the law? Why is it that you expect others to do so as well? Why is it that we have to have any laws at all, beyond the Ten Commandments?

If, today, every human being on this planet used the Ten as a guideline for all conduct involving self and others; would this not be, in fact, Heaven on Earth?

Like Christians, you have a basic belief system. Yours differs only in rejecting the two things that are cornerstone to mine. One, that there is no God, just something from nothing we cannot explain. I call that God and acknowledge His power beyond my comprehension here.
Two, that you are like a light, you just blink on, and then blink out and there is nothing beyond that. I believe in a hereafter, and that is is infinitely better, or worse, because you are with God or forever separated from His presence. Not from sight and awareness, just the joy. You get forever to contemplate your sin and what it has cost you.

Little story to illustrate...

Granny lady lives outside of town on a farm beside the Mississippi River. One spring, the TV says a major flood is coming and to evacuate low lying areas. She gets a call from a friend in town to get to higher ground. She replies, "God will save me." The next day, the county Fire Dept comes by to help her evacuate. She refuses their help saying "I trust in God. He will save me." The next day the flood waters are swirling around her porch. A boat motors up to her porch and tells her "The flood will crest in the morning, it will be over your roof."
She replies "My trust is in God, He will save me." Early the next morning Emergency Response sends a helicopter to get her. She refuses to get in the helicopter and tells the crew, "My trust is in my God. He will save me."

The waters continue to rise, and that afternoon it covers the entire house, and she drowns. She gets to Heaven and asks to see God. St Peter escorts her to the throne where God is sitting. She gets all indignant and says in a loud voice "God, all my life I have trusted you. This flood came, and I trusted in you, and you let me drown. Why?"

God looks down at her and says "My child, I sent a message on the TV. Then I had a friend from town call you and tell you to leave. Then, I sent the Fire Dept, and then a boat, and finally, a helicopter to save you. You refused them all. What else could I do?"

I would expect God has sent you the message a number of times. All of you. This is one more messenger. At some point in time, you will know the truth, hopefully before the instant you expire. Or, you may die in your sleep. It will then be too late to ask for that saving "do over".

I hope that does not happen to you. It is, however, your choice to make. And your consequences to deal with.

God Bless you all,

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

Originally posted by Swamp_Fox:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
Antimatter being studied

Most of you believe only what you were raised to believe.

If the human race were extinct what purpose would your god serve? None

It is very possible that the human race will one day be extinct.
The belief in god is doomed to extinction too.

You seem to have reversed cause and effect.

The universe was created long (best guess 15 billion years)before man as we know him existed. Unless we leave the planet it will exist for billions of years after we are gone.

This will have no measurable effect on the creator.

No man No god
That is how it works

As science moves on an learns more, those who believe in god will be stuck with the same old unchanging story until the end of man.

If the passing of a race will have no measurable effect on th creator why would you think your opinion can kill it.

quote:

If the passing of a race will have no measurable effect on th creator why would you think your opinion can kill it.

Why would you assume your opinion based goat herders' stories make it exist?

Well said Idaho Sharpshooter!

I will add this, the eye witness accounts that the Son of God exist are enough for me. There is no eye witness account's of evolution. Yes dinosaurs existed but were destoryed by God's world wide flood. God talked to Job about them in chapter 40. Its an accepted view that Job lived before the flood.

To say we evolved from apes takes more faith then believing in a Creator God!

Rich, Nice story.
It originally aired during the first or second season of the "West Wing" during an episode where Martin Sheen was struggling with deciding if he should commute the death sentence of a murder.

I don't have to talk with ants, that's what Entomologist are for.

Ok, so we are not born potty trained, but how does that translate into posessing no inate hummanity, and no instinct for compassion? When a baby fills it's diaper, there is not intent to inflict harm on the parent. Yes, humans are born helpless and dependent upon others. Buy your standard, it's preferential for humans to be born totally self-sufficent, however, in nature, the sentient being most self sufficnt at birth are also the most barbaric. Take the Shark. Sharks are 100% totally self sufficent at birth. They can swim, hunt, kill, and need no trainging from their parents. Of course posess NO empathy for one another, and if the babies do not escape the area fast enough, the mother will eat them. Despite the fast that sharks are fully evolved at birth, they are not the best model for modern human morality.

Now lets compare wolves, and dogs. Studies have shown distinct differences in the abilities of wolves and dogs to socialize with humans. Human raised wolf pups proved agressive and impossible to control as young as 4 months of age. Think of all the breeds and uses we have for dogs, all of which are direct decendents of grey wolves. Archieologist can confirm dogs were domesticated at least 13.5k years ago, however genetisist belive it is closer to 100k years ago. Either way, the decendents that live with us today are those with the ability to socialise with humans.

Over the last 50 year in Siberia (I beilve in the Irkutsk, Ulan-Udeh region) breaders have been expermenting with foxes. It was discovered that in as little as 3 generation, with careful selection, the agressive nature could be bread from foxes, and they would socialize with human. Also within 3 genreation they could be bread to become so agressive they would bite a human through the cage. For some reason there isn't much of a market for the latter, except as coats. Probably one of the most interesting things they found was how in just a few generation, (3-8) the tame bread foxes began to develope the characteristics of domesticated dogs. Floppy ears, curly tails, and multi colored coats. hmmm, new coats in 8 generations, does that count as a transitional bread for you???

So, we've discussed, a creature that does not socialize, our best friend that has been socialized, now lets discuss humans. Humans are born helpless and totally dependant on others. They know how to do 3 things, eat, sleep, and $h!7 A new baby nees to be fed 2-4 oz of milk/formula every 2 hours, (that means waking up 3 times per night) and chanes 4-8 times per day. These acts are all a selfless sacrafice, the first "quid pro quo" coming around weeks 6-8 with the babies first smile.

As for raising kids, well I know a little bit about that as well. Mine range in age from 20 months to 20 years, In my experience, children gain empathy for others at a very young age. When my youngest steals candy from the candy bowl, he takes two pieces, one for him, and one for his older sister. He's not out of diapers, (which some how figures into your measure of empathy) yet, he can't go to the candy bowl without thinking about his sister. Today, when you youngest daughter fell, my middle daughter (6) was right there to consoule her. It doesn't matter what kind of critter happens by, all of my daughters are looking to mother them. Stray cats, dogs, birds, squirrels, their littlel brother, it's doesn't matter, they want to feed and care for them all. As for my oldest Selfishness was never an issue with him. I've actually had more issues with my oldest son being too considerate of others. Don't get me wrong, they are still children, but there is no way this level of kindness and empathy was all learned from me. There is something good inside each of them that is beyond what I would teach.

So I must reject your theory that kids are born evil. Althogh there are people in our society that that have a complete disregard for other, feel no remorse or guilt, and behave within norms only because of a fear for the law. They are called Psychopaths. Since recent studies show that most Psychopaths experienced some level of brain damage in addition to an extremely abusise child hood, and even then, only a small percent subjected to these conditions turn into true psychopaths, I reject your theory that we are all born as psychopaths and are taught to behave within norms because we are taught to fear the law. Dexter might be a great HBO character, but to extrapolate this to EVERY child is, well to use your word, Balderdash.

quote:

the eye witness accounts that the Son of God exist are enough for me.

What eye witnesses?

Mark was written around 70-90 AD, with some scholars now place it as late as 140 AD.
Matthew around 70-80
John around 100
Luke in the early 2nd eentury.

The first mention of the Gospels in another source was by Aristides of Athens around 140 AD.

A.S.

You are obviously not familiar with the Cannon of Scripture nor the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The Apostles were "eye witness's" to the events they seen and wrote about.

All but one Apostle was martyred for what they believed(we call it faith today), their letters became books and later called the Gospels.

You need to get more accurate and reliable source's.

quote:

... Yes, humans are born helpless and dependent upon others. ....
... As for raising kids, well I know a little bit about that as well. ...

Antelope Sniper,

Just a small observation, and I have posed this queation before, but it passed by.
Let us go back to the first 2 babies ... the very first 2 down the chain, way back?
And I suppose they were close in time frame and they had to be male and female, right?
Who raised them and cared for them?
When did empathy and thought evolve?

Imagine your parents being without these virtues, and suddenly you are born with these virtues.
Then consider the social ramifications - how you perceive them as a child, and at some stage rejection.
This is but one aspect ... then you have to go look for one similar to you .... elsewhere, but where?
We sit with a MYSTERY here that we cannot answer, just SPECULATION.

And finally we have a multitude of nations with geopolitical and social economic issues.
From the Pigmee in the Congo to the Chinese, and everyone in between.
Black is dominant over white ..... but we all come from the same single cell bacterium.
Hard to believe, but if so, what a miracle.

I have a principle in "management", if things are left to themselves, they deteriorate.
I project that to nature, you have to bring in management (planning or design by a controlling body)
Not by chance at random - the variety and complexity is just to vast.
And that is the matter of irreducible complexity.

Warrior

Intelligent design presupposes (and requires) an intelligent designer.

Rich

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:

quote:

If the passing of a race will have no measurable effect on th creator why would you think your opinion can kill it.

Why would you assume your opinion based goat herders' stories make it exist?

Why would you think my belief in a creator has anything to do with animal husbandry?

quote:

Just a small observation, and I have posed this queation before, but it passed by.
Let us go back to the first 2 babies ... the very first 2 down the chain, way back?
And I suppose they were close in time frame and they had to be male and female, right?
Who raised them and cared for them?
When did empathy and thought evolve?

Did it began as two, or a population? Lets take a look at the Italian Wall lizards that were introduced onto a Croatian island back in the 1970's. Since then the small population of 10 lizards has exploded to over 5,000, but they island population has developed larger heads, a harder bit and a new gut structure inorder to process the indigenious plants on the island. Genetic testing has proven the new lizards are realated to the 10 released back in the 1970's, but there is no evidence to suggest they are related to only one or two of the original lizards. So it seems that when we have observable evolution, it's in populations, not necessarly beginning with "just two" as you and Genesis would portray.

http://news.nationalgeographic...izard-evolution.html

I would, however, like to take a walk with you down the path of the beginning of Virtue. Since I believe we are the sum of our histories, and our accomplishments today, are because we stand on the shoulders of all who came before us, what was the true moment of spark, the concious thought that propelled us down the path that lead to where we stand today. I believe it was the first parent that thought, "I want my kids to have a better life then I did, so lets build something better", and took action to provide it for them. Perhaps, as you postulate, these thoughts originated with a child wondering why the adults were not working to make things better? There we can only speculate.

As for your management principle, it all depends on the quality of management.

First rate managers hire first rate people. They develop rating and incentive systems that reward best practice bahaviors. They train assistants and successors to operate the business in the event of their absence or promotion.

Second rate managers hire third rate people. They offer few, if any incentives for employee's to go above and beyond. THey overly use fear as a motivator, and micromanage they employee's, destroying iniative, and original thinking. Since second rate managers know they are weak, they fail to develop leadership within the ranks out of fear that someone else will take their job. Consequently orginizations build on this house of cards are designed to disintegrate in the absence of their already weak leadership.

Warrior, if you are working for an orginization of the second type, RUN. If, on the other hand, you are a leader or owner of an orginization of the second type, I'm avaliable on a consulting basis.

T_A Actually I'm familiar with the Cannon, the Apocrypha, the Gnostic Gospels, the Nag Hammadi Library, and the Dead Sea's scrolls.

The interesting thing about the Dead Sea scrolls, Not a single copy of a New Testiment book, let alone one of the Gospel has been found among the many scrools. In my copy of Understand the Dead Sea Scrolls by Hershal Shanks, on page 187 it states, "Although no actual copies of New Testament books have been found at Qumran, parts of some New Testament books may have been drawn from Qumran or Essene sources, and then revised and edited into their present context." It then goes on to give an example of where Corinthians 6:14-15 parrots Qumran Hymn scrool. Not exactly a ringing endorcement of "eye whitness" accounts.

What was the common language of Galilee in 30 A.D? What language are all the Gospels written in? How about "Pauls letters"? Do we have a single on in Aramaic?

Imagine for a moment someone came forward with a first hand account of the assassination of Lincoln. The account is published in 1984, in Vietnameese. Sorry, but I think I would pass on that particular "first hand" account.

The greatest contribution of the Dead Sea Scrools to Christianity is the show the Jewish Soil from which it grew. They leave sign post of the cultivation of furrows of Jewish thought that evolved into Christianity.

quote:

Originally posted by tin can:

quote:

Researchers in South Africa have revealed the earliest direct evidence of human-made arrows. The scientists unearthed 64,000 year-old "stone points", which they say were probably arrow heads. Closer inspection of the ancient weapons revealed remnants of blood and bone that provided clues about how they were used. The team reports its findings in the journal Antiquity. The arrow heads were excavated from layers of ancient sediment in Sibudu Cave in South Africa. During the excavation, led by Professor Lyn Wadley from the University of the Witwatersrand, the team dug through layers deposited up to 100,000 years ago.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/scie...environment-11086110





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sibudu_Cave



. . .

This picture is proof-positive men have been searching for the perfect caliber waaaaay longer than I thought....I guess cave men had a good command of marketing far earlier than anthropoligists once speculated.

quote:

Did it began as two, or a population?

My question still passed by .... whehter they were 2 or many (100, or 1,000,000 or 1.0 billion) .... who raised them (the babies) in the beginning? I just simplified by stating 2.

We know for sure it could not be a billion, as we are only sitting now around 6 billion. And we are over populated. So if we do a reverse calculation mathematically from the 6 billion and we calculate back say 30 million or 100 million years, how many would we get? Plenty or a few? The same is true for fish, insects and so forth.

Who raised the babies .... way back in the dim past?
Also, this phenomenon of male and female is by design.
To perpetuate itself.

I posed the idea that if born from a mother and father that cannot think or reason, as they don't possess a thought process, and so cannot talk ..... and then a baby is born that can .... but who taught the baby his mother tongue? Parents that differ that much from their children will be rejected, and you will have an anti-social system that also happens to be one of a kind where you reject your parents. You just could not converse with them. This must be a damn weird phase of human development then. Perhaps we are lucky then to have escaped this phase?

Warrior

Warrior, you suposition assumes either creationism, or that at some point in time we evolved so quickly that the parents of a given generation would not recognize and caree for their own young. Although foxes gaining floppy ears and curly tais in 3 generation, is pretty fast, I really doubt these changes prevented the parents from recognizing and caring for, their own young, or the pups from finding their mothers milk. Since mammals have been around for about 200 million years, That provides for many generations of nursing, and the developement of the Maternal instinct. Who raised the Babies?, many millions of generations of parrents.

I see no reason that the creator couldn't use evoloution to create all the species.
Our DNA mainly contains what scientists call "Junk DNA." Junk DNA, of course, means the scientists don't know what it is for.

Swamp, if you belive the creator made man though evolution, or you not conceedint that the creation account in Genesis is Wrong?

If Genesis is Wrong, could other parts of the Bible be wrong? If so, how much?

Enliten me A.S.,

If you claim to be fimilar with the Word of God, whats your problem?

Have you over educated yourself to the point you can't grasp the simple?

quote:

Warrior, you suposition assumes either creationism, or that at some point in time we evolved so quickly that the parents of a given generation would not recognize and caree for their own young. Although foxes gaining floppy ears and curly tais in 3 generation, is pretty fast, I really doubt these changes prevented the parents from recognizing and caring for, their own young, or the pups from finding their mothers milk. Since mammals have been around for about 200 million years, That provides for many generations of nursing, and the developement of the Maternal instinct. Who raised the Babies?, many millions of generations of parrents.

A.S.

This explanation is too vague for my liking and acceptance.
We need something more concrete.
It is not just about getting mother's milk.
It is about the whole social system that does not gell with me.

Humans are very different than animals with its multi-faceted aspects of its brain power, emotions; pshyclogical make-up, and its lesser abilities to survive in nature like apes.

Warrior

quote:

If you claim to be fimilar with the Word of God, whats your problem?

Timber Ape, as I've stated before, the belief that God is all powerful, all kind, and all knowing does not pass a simple reading of the test. Just look at my previous examples.

Warror, you asked, who raised the first two children, who, by some miricle of God had empathy, when their parents did not. I just rejected your thesis.

Were you really tring to ask, "How is it possible for our modern social system to develope without the intervention of God?"

God said it, that settles it! enough said!

God isn't about simple reading, He is about having a personal relationship with those who will accept His free gift.

So Timber, share with us your vision of God.
Is he all knowing?
Is he all powerful?
Does he possess infinate kindness?

quote:

Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
Swamp, if you belive the creator made man though evolution, or you not conceedint that the creation account in Genesis is Wrong?

If Genesis is Wrong, could other parts of the Bible be wrong? If so, how much?

I didn't say I believed the creator used evoloution. I said I see no reason why he couldn't use evoloution.

I also don't think the creation story was meant to be taken literally. "Let there be light" is a reasonable way to explain the big bang to 9 bce wandering tribesmen. Dividing the firmiment is a simple way of explaining matter coalescing from the gluon/quark soup or of creating a planet with water and an atmosphere. The question in my mind how were these concepts integrated into the religon of such a primitave people.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Antelope Sniper:
Warror, you asked, who raised the first two children, who, by some miricle of God had empathy, when their parents did not. I just rejected your thesis.QUOTE]

The biblical version is that one child killed the other. No much empathy there.

Timber you were asking about evil acts of God:

He destroy's all human life except one family with a flood, Not evil?

He has his own son tortured to death, so his chosen people can eat his flesh and drink his blood every Sunday? Not evil?

All but 144,000 of us are going to be murdered because of his little pissing match with Satan? Not evil?

How about the 32+ Genocides commited during the Jewish invasion of Canaan.

Here's one of my favorites:

During the story of Exodus:

4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

So God intentionally hardens the heart of Pharaoh, so Pharaoh won't release the Jews, and give him an excuse to murder all those babies.


Here's the premeditation:
11:4 And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:
11:5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the first born of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.
11:6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.

And Here's the Murder:

12:29 And it came to pass, that at midnight the LORD smote all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sat on his throne unto the firstborn of the captive that was in the dungeon; and all the firstborn of cattle.

So, he picks the fight (Hardens Pharaoh's heart), then plans and committes first degree murder of innocent children.

Is that Evil enough for you?

He is the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.

He holds in His hands the unseen things and has controll over them.

His kindness does have one limit, accept or reject, its a free gift, the choice is yours, its called a "free will".

God does not force Himself on anyone, make your choice wisely!