Anybody else out legg'in up their horses for hunting season. I took three 20 mile rides last week. ( Wed, Fri & Sat). Most started around 7000 foot and we climbed up to 10,200

Mine stay pretty legged up all summer from fishing trips and general rides. but we decided to ride into the hunting camp and see what shape the trail was in and a couple of rides to just see the scenry

I have a horse walker out back, saves me a lot of riding. I stick them on it and get in my easy chair with a awning over it, and a glass of ice tea and talk baby talk to them..

I also practice rope two or three times a week, and almost every weekend go to a team roping somewhere.

By hunting season we is all in pretty fair shape!

Ray, I come from a back ground of endurance and competitive trail rides where I deal with slow twitch horses. I know very little about fast twitch horses. I'm not trying to be confronttational, but rather looking for help understanding. So educate me.

I've gone with friends who were practicing their roping. I would go to the far end of the arena and school my horse while the roped. They would spend 2 hours at the arena a couple of times a week and like you go and compete somewhere on weekends. During that evening they would 15 maybe 20 runs on calves. Their horses gave 100% for what 6 maybe 8 seconds. Then they stand around and wait for their next turn in the gate. Those repeated short dashes, probably develope great quickness or the fast twitch muscles.

For me hunting has been more of can the horse keep going for 8-10 or even 12 hours a day for 2-3 days in a row. Can I ride that horse over ridges looking for elk and then make multiple trips up the canyon to collect the elk I've shot and then return and pack out camp to the truck. So endurance training has always seemed a more appropriate type of conditioning for the work I ask of my horse during hunting.

Now I've seen cow handlers pushing cows all day long on grazing permits. Their horses absolutely have the endurance to stay at it all day long. So I'm not questioning a quarter horse vs an arab, but rather they type of conditioning they get.

Does a couple dozen roping runs 2-3 times a week and a hour a day on a hot walker give them that type of endurance?

My belief is that regarding conditoning and endurance, individual breeding, rather than a breed is more important. An example- I have two horses that I'm currently showing, cutting horses, which would certainly be a faster twitch, although a lot longer lasting than a roper. I have a gelding that is a Little Peppy bred horse which are notorious for being tough, when I go to a show, he is loped 20 minutes and walked 5 for four hours. If you don't he'll be bouncing all over the pen when you put a cow in front of him, possibly even buck a little. Obviously he is hard as nails and damn near impossible to wear out. I have a half sister (same mare) to him that is a granddaughter of Smart Little Lena that has just enough go to make it through a run, you can saddle her in the arena, ride to the herd and show her. Both are quarter horses of course. My point is that there is as much variation within a breed as there is betwen breeds when it comes to endurance. I also have another mare that I use for hunting (not a show horse) and you can sure as hell ride her twelve hours a day in the mountains and never kick her. She won't stand still unless you relax in the seat, stiffen up a little and she's gone down the trail. That's why I don't put a lot of faith in someone who has two horses, an Arab and a Quarter and he says the Arab has a lot more endurance on the trails. He may have a tough Arab and a lazy quarter horse, there are all kinds, that's why they make all those bits and humane spurs as well as rock grinders for the lazy ones. By the way what do you do on a competitive trail ride? I can't imagine that at all, or how would you judge a winner?

J, I agree with what you are saying. Just in my herd, I've got both kinds of horse, the goers and the lazy ones. But at least with mine, I find that I need a long slow conditioning or I will see them stress out if worked hard all day, regardless of what their natural disposition is. Just like the high school champion 440 sprinter can't compete very well in the marathon, unless he trains for the marathon.

Competitive trail is something I did for years. But I got tired of getting my gas card bill being delivered in a UPS box. Too many of the events are too far away.

A Comptetive trail ride is different from an endurance race. It's more like a road rally. All horses are treated the same. All horses have to complete the 50 mile trail in an alloted time. 15 minutes too fast or too slow and you are out of the game. So you need to be able to look at the map and determine the terrain and rate your horses speed so you arrive at the check points at the scheduled time. You need to ride the horse the entire distance. No getting off an running along side the horse like an endurance race. The event usually starts friday afternoon and runs through Sunday afternoon. A vet judges how you take care of your horse for the weekend and how the horse holds up. No artificial aids. ie no leg wraps, no anti inflamitory drugs, no clay packs to stop legs from stocking up. If a horse develops a sore back, he looses points. cuts on his legs show interference, he looses points for not knowing how to take care of his feet. Stocking up or filling in the legs, looses points. 2-3 times a day the vet will try to intercept the riders and check the horse's vitals. If they don't come back to a resting heart rate or resting breathing rate with in a 10 minute rest period, they loose points. Hydration, respiration and heart rate are all watched closely by the vet and scored. If your horse is not conditioned for long rides, He WILL lose point for this.

They also have a horsemanship judge that will ask riders to perform certain task. Each judge has their favorites they ask for. Open gates from the saddle, back around trees while keeping a hand on the tree, sidepass over and tie a ribbon or hang a coat on a tree, staying centered in the saddle while ascending or descending a steep hill, controlling your horse over fallen logs, etc. They want to see how well you can control your horse over the kind of obsticles people would encounter along a trail.

Points are added up for the weekend and prizes and ribbons given out. There is no money in. It just for fun. A reason to go ride a 50 mile trail ride some place you've never been before. Hang out with other horse owners for the weekend.

PaintedHorse, that is a beautiful picture. The elevation would likely kill me and my horse if we tried to hunt the first week we got there.

It's the West side or the Idaho side of the Tetons. We parked the trailer at 7000 foot and rode up to 10,220. Where we had this view

Painted Horse ...

We (wife, son, myself) do CTR (and occasionally an endurance ride) with two QH and one QH/Arab. That's a good description of CTR.

Something the long distance stuff has taught us is how to judge the horse and not push too hard. I was point riding a CTR on Labor Day, and after my QH had been marking trail all week (probably 120 miles +) he was getting tired. Though others may not have held him back, I knew to do just that when his mucus membranes and capillary refill were off. CTR has helped me judge the difference between a lazy horse, and a horse that is running out of gas -- not an easy chore.

As for conditioning, I don't think there is anything better than long rides, particulary in sand, if you can find it. I don't think any amount of arena work would get you to CTR/endurance quality.

Is that Darby Canyon?

Which picture. The first picture at the top of the thread is Granite Basin Looking toward Mount Moran

The picture just above this post, I think it is South Bitch Creek. We had climbed up out of Granite Basin and had not yet started down into Green Lakes. We were on summit looking north. Probably on Green Lakes Mountain or Dry Ridge Mountain

Here some more pictures from that same lookout point. This is looking West from the same peak.


And this is looking East. the mountain peak in the upper left corner is probably in the Moran Creek drainage.

Painted horse,
I have never had any trouble getting around on my rope horses and I do hunt elk and deer on them and I work cattle off them from time to time..They are wasped up in the waist and pretty hard..I exercise them pretty hard at a long trot and lope before I rope and I may run 30 or more steers in a couple of hours and yes they get to rest between steers but not much at practice and they get quite a bit or rest at a competitive jackpot but I don't count those...At a practice you are just roping with a few friends and at a jackpot there may be seveal hundred teams, but your out there in the sun all day sitting on your horse or he is tied up waiting..

A horse is either in shape or he is not, just like any athelete, and to what extent is not so much how but how much the owner works on it..and for sure I can ride my horse pretty hard for 12, even 16 hours, a day but that will sure take the weight off them in three or four days, and I would have to grain the hell out of them..Mostly I ride in very rough country and we do not have trails to ride, its all across country for the most part..As to elk hunting about any horse can handle that as your on a trail and you actually do your hunting on foot, at least in Idaho, then you have to get your horse to the elk, load up the quarters and lead him out or take a pack mule which is what I do.

The hot walker at a long trot will condition any horse for anything, and it will work you pretty hard as you have to stand there and keep them going after awhile...I believe it the best investment I have ever made, much the same as going to the gym for a human.

Before hunting season I sometimes go to the dessert and hit a long trot for about an hour then walk 30 minutes and then Long trot. I start out at about a two hour ride and work up to an all day session, at that point there is no place I can't go...


I'm not an endurance rider and no desire to do so, but I do appreciate a tough horse and believe in keeping them in condition so that I can do whatever needs doing.

I have watched a lot of endurance races and it looks like to me the endurance is mostly on the rider, the horses and mules seem to do quite well if the rider has the horsemanship..

Appreciate your feed back, You deal in a sport that I don't. So I don't pretend to understand how fit your horses are. That's why I asked the question.

As far as endurance and CTR, The endurance is absolutely on the horse. I have managed too many rides, Seen too many horses pulled for metabolic reasons where they failed the vet check. Even horses that I'm seeing every two weeks at a different race, may have bad day and not finish. And the 100 mile races (Like the Tevas)only get around 35% finish, with 65% being pulled.

Agreed, Painted horse.

I have no idea how walking around in a circle aids horses, but since getting in to CTR, I have started to understand how to judge horses, how to check metabolics, and how to train for endurance races.

A linebacker may, may, be able to hunt elk. A cross-country runner will do better. The training is worlds apart -- but both are strong athletes.

To say the endurance is on the rider is naive, though. I've seen horses pulled, but I've also seen horses almost dead. Horses checked by a vet prior to and half-way through a short 30 miler. What's the difference between a horse that does well, a horse that "makes it" and a horse that needs to alter its plans? Conditioning.

Yes, Ray, horsemanship has a huge effect, too. A horse can carry a sack of potatos only so far. He can carry a competent rider much better, much further, and without injuring himself.

This is not, NOT, about the toughness of the horse. It's about keeping a tough horse going. To make a correlation, I've met plenty of "tough" guys who don't have what it takes to hunt at altitude. It's a matter of DISCIPLINE, not TOUGHNESS.

Of course, it matters what you use the horse for. Just making one big pack in and one or two big packs out? No big deal. But if you're using your horses, and want to use them for a long time, they need endurance training.

Ray, don't tell me that you can train for truely long distance events by trotting in circles. If it was that easy, it'd be, well, easy.

Endurace is about LONG distance and, well, endurance. CTR is about semi-long distance, horsemanship, and taking care of the animal. I will listen to these people.

Drag a post, heavy log or tractor tire around your pasture. Walk, trot, lope. Repeat.

Well, dragging a post is not a good idea.

Basically, conditioning your horses should be done by performing the kind of work you want them to do, just like conditioning yourself.

Dragging a post is likely to make a sore, pissed-off horse. Endurance events require endurance training, it's as simple as that.

Oh, and arena events should get arena training. I don't think the two are interchangeable.

My endurance horse could rope and drag, sure. But if I was serious about it, I'd have to train him differently.

I wouldn't tell a football coach that linebackers should be running 10 miles for a workout. Nor should cross-country runners be hitting blocking sleds.

To an extent, many horses are called on to be both a linebacker (arena events) and a cross-country runner (packing, CTR, long-distance trailing). If the events are "moderate intensity," it's probably no big deal ... a horse in reasonable shape ought to be able to handle it. But if we're talking about serious competition against specialized horses, not just "any old workout" will do.

Some guys take evening walks to prepare for elk season. Some guys run marathons. Both are right, but I bet they have different goals and different hunting styles.

Same for their horses.

Dragging a post gets my horses heart rate up, he's burning fat and building muscle. We also trail ride Fridays, and check cows daily.
I am not saying dragging a log is all you need to tune up, but it is another exercise that works.
DT- why not?

Well, why not?

It's about metabolism.

Heart rate is not a goal ... it's an indirect measure of your goal, which is metabolism.

In short: Burst-type events call for anaerobic metabolism, and endurance-type events call for aerobic metabolism. You should train for the one you expect to test the most.

So ... Burst athletes (equine or human) should train with intervals ... easy/hard/easy/hard ... like you said, it gets heart rate up, and builds muscle.

But endurance athletes will not be able to compete like that. Burst activity relies on glycogen, which is rapidly depleted with exercise, so the animal has to switch to aerobic metabolism. So, endurance athletes use heart rate monitors to keep their rates more moderate. Higher rates mean using glycogen, which tears up endurance athletes.

Look, like I said, average horses in average settings against average competition can train just about any old way they like, and they'll do fine. (Like the 30 year-old men we know who play beer-league softball.) But specialized situations, or above average competition require training for specific metabolism, so the animal can run further on his fuel ... hopefully further than he's asked to go.

You've seen film of human marathoners collapsing at the finish line. No amount of interval work would help them, since interval work is to help him burn glycogen, which by that point of the race is ... gone. He has none. (Think of glygogen as lighter fluid -- bright flame when you throw it on the fire, but it doesn't last long.)

Well, it's the same with endurance athletes of the equine world.

Look, most of what we do hunting doesn't come close to what endurance athletes go through. That doesn't keep some guys from running 10K's to train for elk season, and they're probably giving themselves an edge, don't you think?

Their horses could use the same edge.

I hope that's clear as mud.

yes, all that makes perfect sense to me. I think a versatile training regimen is optimal, much like humans who cross train for general over all health. Interval and endurance...like steeplechase perhaps.
What breed do the endurance riders favor?

The endurance riders favor Arab or arab cross horses. It just amazes me how quickly they recover after a work out. They can trot a mile come into the vet check and 10 minutes be at a resting heart rate of 4 maybe 5 beats ( in 15 sec) My foxtrottes will be at 8-9 beats. A lot of the quarter horses, TB will have a hard time getting under 12 beats with a 10 minute rest.

When I managed rides I'd have to collect all the horses registration. So i would see what breeds where represented. Most endurance riders will be on Arabs ( usually 60-70%). About 50% of CTR riders will be on Arabs, 25-30% will be on foxtrotters and the rest will represent all the other breeds.

I'm not a big fan of Arabs, but they are simply better athletes for that sort of thing. Their recovery time is unbelievable.

It's not that QH's can't do it. I've run QH's at CTR and endurance, and done well, but when you use a "linebacker" for a cross-country run, conditioning is even more important.

Frankly, I think the Arabs wake up in the morning ready to cover 50 miles. My QH's don't.

DeerTick,
Have you tried it..all race horses do a stint on the walker! It won't do it on its own but its a viable option to combine with other methods of conditioning...

The only thing I do know is my horses are tough as nails and have never quit me in the mountains or in rough country, never been outrun by a cow and I roped 40 steers last night on my old horse and he was as good on the last one as he was on the first one, and he didn't get more than a minute or two rest between steers. I have herded horse 125 miles to ship on ocassions some years past and that was pretty tough go. I have never been in a 100 mile race because that in itself would kill me today!

I've never tried a walker, but I have no doubt it'd be a good idea. Long, slow distance ... that's what's needed for these "events."

But of course, that's not the events that YOU do, so of course your training would be different.

Yep, a walker sounds like a fine idea. I may think about investing in something like that, actually. I bet it'd be good on legs, lungs, and hooves.

A good walker can hit a long trot and that in itself is about the best horse conditioning move that I know of...The horse will tell you when he has had enough and if you ignore him he might just burn up your walker motor!

I start them out at 30 minutes a day at a slow walk for a few days then 30 minutes of walking and 10 minutes of long trotting and my goal is to increase that slowly until they can long trot for 30 minutes and walk 30 minutes, if they can do this at least 3 times a week then they can pretty much get anything done that I need out of them..I don't know about the indurance disapline so your on your own there, but this should get you started..

It is also the best way I know to cool out a horse after a hard evening roping and they are hot and sweaty, especially in the Idaho winters..

I bought mine use for $750.00 and it was near new and is a very heavy duty walker. It had never been used much. I got lucky...always buy a heavy duty walker the light ones will tear up pretty quick. A 1 horse electric motor is advisable.

When I was a kid I had an Arab mare. I rode her several hours each day in summer and after school until dark fall and spring. (N. MN it got dark when school was letting out in winter). Anyway, I was an 80# kid and usually rode bareback. My horse could fly. She swam the river, I shot off her, anything you want. Twenty miles out, twenty back on a summer day. My parents wouldn't even know I had gone. Some times on weekends there would be trailrides. They were pathetic. I was always being admonished for going too fast, too far, taking the other kids places that they couldn't get back from. One time I took a bunch of fellow riders (kids) out about 20 miles. of course everybody's horse broke down (except mine) and we put them up at a local farm and trailered them back the next day. I was getting read the riot act by my Dad and most of the other parents were standing there. You could hear a pin drop when I said:"What's the problem? I rode out here and back yesterday?"

I live at sea level basically. If and when I get the chance to go elk hunting in the mountains, I plan on using red cell for a month in advance, to up the horses red blood cell count for the elevation. Anyone have experience with this? I'm assuming that it would help a lot, but this is just my thought. My horses get used and are in good shape, but I know first hand what elevation can do to a person in good shape who isn't used to it.

The product I am referring to is called Red Cell. It is a 'blood builder' mostly used by racing trainers. I'm sure there are other products of it's kind, I'm simply familiar with this particular brand. I've put horses on it before, but only ones that lacked much umph. If you give it to a 'normal' horse, it tends to make them pretty hyper. It comes in a gallon jug, and is a dark red liquid. A couple of teaspoons over their feed and supposedly they will produce more red blood cells, which are the cells that bind oxygen. With more RBC's the lack of oxygen at higher elevations "shouldn't" bother them as much. I'm in South Louisiana at an elevation of 23 ft., so a trip to the mountains is a pretty big change to my horses, or is it? Again, the effect/need is mere speculation on my part, but I can attest to red cell pepping one up a bit (which is generally not a good thing IMHO).
Maybe, I'm over thinking this, and merely having them in good shape would be enough. I have felt the effects of oxygen deprivation myself, and I know that you can't "tough" your way through it. I don't know, because of my lack of experience, if elk/mule deer hunting is in high enough elevations for this to come into play. When I felt it, I was about to summit Old Baldy in Philmont NM, and was above the tree line approaching 13,500 ft. I could go about fifteen or twenty feet and had to sit, or I'd have passed out. I don't want to be on a horse, in the mountains when it passes out.

I'll begin the application process next year, but in all honesty don't expect to get to go just yet. I'd really like to get a few more buddies together and begin an annual DIY hunt, but that's another thread. Don't much even care which state. I like to gather info real early so my daydreams are more realistic.

I don't think you need to worry about packing your horses red blood cells. I've put on an CTR and endurance rides, Folks show up from California, the Carolinas, Georgia. They have drug their horses from sea level to 8200 foot where we camp. They get on them and race across the mountains crossing passes at 11,000 foot. And those horses seem to survive and preform.

Just have your horse legg'd up. Make sure he is getting good feed that he is used to, ( often times you are switching hay for certifide weed free on western trips), make sure they are staying hydrated. Most altitude sickness in people can be avoided if they drank more water. Same with your horse. Keep them drinking.

Know how to read their vitals and give them a breather when they need it. If you want to be on the ridge at sun up. Give your horse time to get you there with out stressing it.

Just common sense will go a long way in conditioning your horse. You know you will be climbing mountains, so ride hills at home.. You know you will be carrying extra weight while hunting, ( boots, rifle in scabbard, saddle bags with lunch and supplies, extra water for you, you will probably have extra layers of clothing on) get the horse to carry some extra weight on your conditioning rides before you come.

Just curious as if you've seen many mustangs run in these Endurance rides. My first horse was a captive born mustang gelding. Good looking buckskin, but turned out to be pretty big for a endurance horse I'm sure. But he always seemed to have some exceptional endurance on trail rides. He hardly ever broke a sweat while others were all lathered up. Should have never sold him but he ended up being a police horse in D.C. So he had a better life than I could have afforded him I'm sure. I think the old mustangs could hold thier own pretty well in these events if given the chance.

Around 50-70% of all horses in the endurance races are arabs. Then just about every other breed is respresented in the balance. So no I don't see a lot of mustangs in these eventes, But I do see a few.

I DO see lots mustangs when I'm out riding. Sometimes closer than other times

Those are some beautiful pictures Painted Horse. If I may ask where were they taken?

Was thinking about looking at an Arab/Mustang cross for endurance riding, but I think we'll go with an Arab/Paint that we found, instead.

Arabians are built for the distance. The mustangs come from a wide variety of lineages ... they are, after all, feral, and not of one breed.

Cockerman they were taken on the San Rafael Swell area of Central Utah. It's where I hunt Sheep. After exploring it for a Bighorn hunt, I decided it was a pretty neat place to ride horses.



A lot of old history. I don't know how those early settlers every survived.


It's too hot in the summer,but is an idea place to ride in the colder months when the high country is snowed in.


Every once in a great while I see nice mule deer in that area beside the sheep, donkeys and mustangs. Pardon the blurr, But we were at a dead run when I snapped the photo.

Again some amazing pictures. Nevermind the blur painted, I'd have a hard enough time just holding on let alone trying to snap a picture. Also loved your story papapaul. Nice to remember a time when kids actually did something to learn about how life really works.

I learned a long time ago that a good horse can out run a mule deer. But if you rope one, It's pretty hard to get your rope back.

This buck had a really nice rack, that I hoped I could get a photo of.

Painted,

Enjoyed the pics!

Glad you enjoy them. It's why I ride horses, to get back and see the remote places few folks ever see.

Red Canyon in the San Rafael


Sinbads Head in the san rafael


And while I enjoy the desert rides in the colder months. I prefer to be near tree line on an a alpine lake during the warmer months.

I spent a couple days riding in the San Rafael River drainage, a little west of Hwy 6 & north of I-70. Would like to ride more of the back country there.