I find the schism between the lever gun guys and the bolt/double guys about African hunting to be a lively and interesting topic. Most of the 45-70, 450 Marlin lever guys think that that a properly loaded lever gun is perfectly suitable for Africa up to and including Cape Buffalo. Paco Kelly is convinced that the Belt Mountain Punch Bullet from a 45-70 will sail through the head of an elephant! The bolt/double guys think that the lever guns are marginal at best and dangerous at worst. Me, I think that bullet technology has improved to such a degree that calibers once considered marginal for big, heavy game are now stone cold killers. With the advent of these incredible bullets, I guess I would have to say I agree with the lever guys. What say you?

I don't have a lever gun, but I do remember having a passing thought while reading an article covering one of Turnbull's big lever rifles that this could be a fine choise for short range buff.

I think that modern bullet (and propellant) technology has brought these cartridges to a point where they may be a close range option. Further technology will only increase their usefulness.

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Dichotomy

What is with the big words??

I'm sure not going to get into the 45-70 arguement. I've never attempted to load one above old black powder levels.


However I could build a very nice Winchester 95 in my 400PDK. It is a cylonder 06 case left at 2.65 with a 400gr Hornady it gets over 2300 in a 24" bolt rifle and 8-10 loading on the brass. Based on my results from my 24" taking it to a 22" and pressure in the 55-57,000 range that is a 400gr 410 bullet at 2250fps. So If a 450/400 can kill at that level so would the W95.

400 PDK???? Prairie Dog Killer?

PDK Plains-game Dangerous-game Killer

50 Alaskan, 50 B&M Alaskan and 450 Alaskan are potent rounds at 42k PSI with the right bullet.
In a larger than marlin lever action even more so.

I have no problem with the 45-70/450 Marlin cartridge and the modern bullets and powders being able to get the penetration required for large game up to and including elephant...

My question is the USE of a levegun as a "DGR"...even the best bolt and doubles are only 99% reliable in cycling...there is NO such thing as a 100% rifle...statistically AND realistically speaking...and a levergun's level of reliability is so low in my estimation as to be completely out of consideration.

Even though your levergun might work everytime in a "normal" position...I can make it jam at will, "almost", by rolling it over on its right side and cycling it slowly...and don't even think about doing it upside down.

My 3 barrel Marlin 336 will normally cycle "almost" a full mag "most" of the time but it won't two times in a row...with 3 different cartridges...356 W, 444M and 458 American.

That 336 was never even 80% when a OEM 30-30...and the W94 wasn't any better or worse...you had to develop a "feel" for when the jam would happen if you didn't close the lever and start again. The "dreaded Marlin Jam".

It's not about the cartridges, it's about functionality...there have been several elephants taken with a levergun in "perfect" conditions...but I want a double or a D'Arcy or a shooter from one of the other well know DGR gunmakers if I'm gonna crawl around in the shi* after a bad situation gone even worst.

I got almost got chewed up by a half dead bobcat I wounded with a Win 94 30-30 and was crawling in the underbrush following a tiny blood trail and the damned 94 jammed when I rolled over slightly and the loading gate was down...but I was able to prang the little bastid by emptying the mag on my Hi-Standard 22 auto plus hit it along side the head with the barrel.

I really don't care what you use, I wouldn't even begin to tell another hunter the type of rifle they should use for what game or what the armchair BS is all about...I've developed a very high degree of self preservation over the year. I see and read that many would rather "prove" some total BS on forums or at the range that leads me to believe a whole lot of people have NO idea of what the "real world" is all about, concerning hunting really dangerous game...and it doesn't take me long to figure out if I wanted to hunt with a person, man, woman or child, by what type of rifle they would use for certain game.

Doesn't really matter much one way or the other...each person has to decide for themselves their level of "expectation" and safety.

Luck

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What is with the big words?? rotflmo

Paul, you took the words out of my mouth....Dichotomy? Schism? Dave, put down the thesaurus and take a breather!!!

PS: Besides, lever guys don't know big words like that!!!

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400 PDK???? Prairie Dog Killer

Yep but for Prairie Dogs it is 300s at 2600+ or 210 pistol bullets. One from right is a 300 one from left is the 400.


Foobar, very good point. I know that many of the 45-70 lever shooters at our Houston big bore shoots had issues with feeding on a fast 4 in a row. Never played with a 95 enough at SPEED to know how it would handle.

Biebs:

Just got off the phone with the folks at Marlin. The 450 Marlin has been discontinued. Damn, and I just bought a BLR in that caliber. Went to Midway and ordered 50 more rounds of brass. I hope Hornady keeps turning out the brass from time-to-time.

JPK once used the phrase "pressure-shmesher".
Cracked me up!

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Originally posted by FOOBAR:

Even though your levergun might work everytime in a "normal" position...I can make it jam at will, "almost", by rolling it over on its right side and cycling it slowly...and don't even think about doing it upside down.

Note to self, don't lay on your side or stand on you head when hunting with you lever gun. Oh yea, and they work like shit underwater and in outer space too! I'm sorry FOOBAR, I just couldn't resist

45/70 in a levergun is NOT an all purpose DG round .. rem 405s at 1600 aint buffalo loads .. don't care if the bullet is depleted unobtainium

Lol DU 45-70

Run in a 300 RCM reamer and have a better cart. 45-300 RCM.

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Originally posted by Dave Bush:
Biebs:

Just got off the phone with the folks at Marlin. The 450 Marlin has been discontinued. Damn, and I just bought a BLR in that caliber. Went to Midway and ordered 50 more rounds of brass. I hope Hornady keeps turning out the brass from time-to-time.

I have a Mauser actioned rifle in caliber .40-.284, which has the same case capacity and performance as the .400 Whelen and the .405 Winchester.

I also have a couple of Winchester Model 88 lever actions, which are in essence bolt rifles actuated by a lever, and can handle the pressures of the bolt action, rimless cartridges they were designed for, such as the trio of the .243, the .308 and .358 Winchester.

The Model 88 was originally available in caliber .284 as well, and detachable magazines in that caliber are still to be found on the internet.

I see no reason why one of these could not be rebarrelled to .40-.284 and used in Africa, should local laws permit.

Another possibility would be the .35-.284, which duplicates the .35 Whelen in case capacity and performance.

I prefer my bolt guns, but someone else might find this combination attractive. The detachable magazine system allows rapid reloading and the use of pointed bullets, in any case, which is not a characteristic of the various tubular magazine rifles mentioned above.

I have always thought a 400-284 would be awesome.
That and a 400-376

I'm a 45-70 guy and have hunted with a Marlin 1895 since 1975. I have a couple of Siace doubles in 45-70 and think they are the perfect American hunting double. With the new BBW#13s as you can see on page 154 of the Terminals that the 400 grain out of my double at a low 1670 fps velocity those bullets out penetrated my 577 nitro with a round nose solid in the paper test media. Is the 45-70 a DG rifle, humm maybe not but would I shoot a buffalo with it. YES! Elephant? If that was all I had sure. Would it do the job? I think it would with the proper shot. A poorly placed 577 won't even make an elephant flinch but a properly placed 6.5 X 54 160 grain bullet will kill him dead. Bell proved that.

Sam

You telling me you don't like to do a hundred yard crawl to get up close and personal with you victim, Dave?? Hide behind a rock and have to roll out to get a shot?? Lay on your back under a log and try to get a friggn levergun to load so you can get another shot off because you didn't quite hit the right spot with the first round...YOU AIN'T LIVED YET...but keep using your levershooter, you will figure out HOW to keep it working under all conditions...just not very fast, giving that toothy critter plenty of time to decide which soft and tender spots to start on first.

Or better yet, buy a BLR in 450...I did and I tried cycling it in all those strange positions...and THAT one worked each and every time...so I need to be sure I say the MARLIN levergun isn't a DGR, but the BLR is as close to a DGR levergun as my other "DGR" CRF rifles and as much as can be expected.

I was talking to another MarlinMan who was doing just that...but 338 or 375 300 RCM...works OK in the "Vee" threaded 450 Marlin but a little on the thin side in a square threaded Marlin unless you recut the receiver threads with a set of reamers from Dave Mason and change the barrel threads to basically put the steel back in the barrel shank and increase the OD of the minor square thread diameter...AND reduce the pressure slightly to ~38-40 KCUP. An excellent wildcat no matter what caliber you pick.

I think a levegun would cycle in both places...with a few additional considerations..interesting scenario to think about...you don't have the problem of gravity in outer space mucking about with the round ... only Newtons 3rd law. Hahahahahahah

It's always interesting what the different perceptions are as to which and what are DGR's and what bullets are and are not....gives plenty of food for thought.

Luck

Maybe we should just limit this conversation to buffalo, hippo, and elephant. I'll bet most of us could agree that a 45-70/450 Marlin would be adequate for any thin skinned in Africa up and including lion right? A 350 grain Swift or North Fork at 1900 fps should be able to dust a lion right? It boils down to the question of what can you do with a Barnes Buster, Belt Mountain Punch Bullet, or one of Michaels solids. I would go all the way up to and including buffalo but not elephants. Elephants need something bigger. Just my two cents

If you are to use a levergun use the best ammo and practice so you are the best shot possible. A person hunting with a levergun is being judged and is the example that will be sighted for everyone in the future who wants to do it.

I am not saying it is a good idea but people shoot buff and elephants with handguns and bows, a 45/70 or 450 Marlin is way more gun and easier to shoot accurately.

I agree with Dave in that with premium solids it can be done. However if a lever gun is going to be used the PH should be consulted well in advance so he knows what is planned the same as if a bow or handgun is the weapon on choice.

I am a lever gun fan, I have hunted buffalo and I used a 460 Weatherby not my 45/70. If things go bad I want a gun that can do the job under all conditions, not just optimal conditions.

Mark

Correctamundo, Dave...using the correct bullet for the type of game is always good.

You might check out Randy Garrett's ammo and testimonials...lots of good reading there.

I want to try some of Jae Boks 550 Craters to compare them with the Cast Performance and Beartooth 525's...on something besides sage ratz... ...in my BLR.

There are many very good premium bullets for the 45 cal for every type of game and many good cheapo's for plinking.

There is tons of personal experiences on the web to use as a basis for deciding which way to jump. We just have to keep an open mind and look at things objectively...and hopefully arrive at an equitable solution to any dilema.

Luck