For those who requested one! Here's the real deal. Ultra High Precision 558 Grain .505 diameter made to CIP dimensional standards.

Possible applications? Culling Dumbo, Tree Removal, Light Quarry Work, etc.

You have done well, Grasshopper.

Since I have assisted in your design, and know the dimensions, and have compared them to CIP specs for chamber and cartridge, I can say without reservation: This bullet will chamber in any .505 Gibbs with the tight CIP throat when crimped on that first groove, and it will then be within the CIP COL of 3.830" for a loaded cartridge.

Other forgone conclusions/certainties:

The material strength of the bullet is unquestionable.

The dimensional tolerances of the bullet will guarantee accuracy.

The FN nose design will be a superpenetrator.

The radius on the nose should make it a slick feeder. Any rifle that this does not feed well in ... well that rifle needs work.

The 558-grain weight gives an SD to 3 digits of .313, same as the .510/570-grain monometal bullets that work so well in my "other fifties."

You got a winner. Reserve 100 for me.

there should be a "last" band above the last, a prominate step, creating a wadcutterilike shoulder ...
just my thoughts, .030 D will be enough
the rear should taper from bottom grove to .495, to allow for easier loading, as a true square heeled bullet is a @#$@$ to load in cases

Beautiful...simply beautiful...

Jeffe,
The band nearest the nose is the "first" not the last.
Please restate and try to make sense, please.

I likey!!

I only wish I had a 505 Gibbs!

Cheers,
Canuck

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
there should be a "last" band above the last, a prominate step, creating a wadcutterilike shoulder ...
just my thoughts, .030 D will be enough
the rear should taper from bottom grove to .495, to allow for easier loading, as a true square heeled bullet is a @#$@$ to load in cases

The base of the bullet has a tiny radius to aid seating.

Jeffe

The base has a fairly large radius which is tough to see in the photo. I gaurantee it will seat easily into any properly prepared case. Long axis tapers are a no-no in high load locations (creates sealing and stability problems). Boat tails are for Spitzers eh! Don't you have a 505 Jeffe?? Why don't you try them out and see what you can do with them?!?!?

mac...set up a table at sci and sell a truck load and take future orders...I will help you sell them if you want...i'll need a bear head bullets logo t-shirt though

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:
I likey!!

I only wish I had a 505 Gibbs!

Cheers,
Canuck

There is a well known poster here who has one and a mess of accessories to go with it - FOR SALE!!! Seems he needs the money for a new riding mower or something and has too many rifles. Let me know and I'll put you in touch with him.

Cool Bullet.
Thanks for posting.

Cheers,

André

quote:

Originally posted by JefferyDenmark:
Cool Bullet.
Thanks for posting.

Cheers,

André

Andre - don't you Danes use the 505 Gibbs to repel Drunken Saxon invaders???

I got yer riding lawn mower pal!

Seriously, I have had sooooo much fun developing the 550 Gibbs Magnum that my CZ 505 Gibbs and dies, etc are for sale. If anyone is interested, feel free to PM me.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

PS: I pay a guy that looks a lot like you, sort-of a cross between a soup kitchen cook, and a chain gang
leadworker; twenty bucks a week to mow the yard!

quote:

PS: I pay a guy that looks a lot like you, sort-of a cross between a soup kitchen cook, and a chain gang
leadworker; twenty bucks a week to mow the yard!

Flattery will get you nowhere Rich!!

I have a D-11 to mow your lawn! Plus I only mow for Spaten Optimator or Ratzeputz! Beside how'd you know I wuz so oooogleee!?!?

Well then you and the knights of the Rhomboid Table are too advanced for the 505 so I'll get you some .550" M3 Bullets for testing! How long is that sluice box of yours again?!? You'd better put some Steel plate behind it!

/

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Slick looking bullets but a honest question:

Why the absence of grooves to the rear part of the shank of the bullet? There is quite a large portion to the rear that constitutes a relatively large bearing area?

You can groove the whole thing down to a gnats ass but you give up a lot of weight and most guys here opt for weight over reduced surface area. This is NOT a "suspended in air" driving band design for low pressure double rifles. Additionally, too little rigidity in the rear may induce a slight wobble and reduce accuracy - not that a couple inches here or there matters with a bomber like the 505 eh??

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

Possible applications? Culling Dumbo, Tree Removal, Light Quarry Work, etc.

Excellent work Maci! I love em

Hey,
I only have .510s, not a single .505...

my pov is that you are sealed enough without a long bearing shank (bore rider 50s) and a long taper, or a bunch of grooves will reduce bearing/pressure... and its easier to load... no dice on the idea that grooved and tapers bullets wobble... we've all shot to many bridgers and northforks ..

remember, this aint my first rodeo on designing turned bullets... the have to feed before they can penetrate, and IF one chooses to go with the SD rules for lead based bullets, you have to get every trick in ...

barnes' doesn't and they have pressure spikes

no offense, but i've shot a pile of custom turned bullets...and the first thing i am worred about is PRESSURE then vel, then penetratio..

Jeffe,

Hmmmm......er?...uh?!....NO!. Barnes didn't make a banded anything ten years ago and we all survived. I would know this because I was shooting their .458's at 65,000 PSI and never had any signs of the mystical pressure spike. In fact, I've probably launched enough Barnes and other copper based alloy designs down range that you could plumb a Texas sized sub-division with the scrap!!

The banded (grooved) design is somewhat effective in reducing pressure but I wouldn't bet on it being the primary factor in a production rifle. Bore diameter, bullet diameter, material ductility and their consistency would all be higher on the list than bands or grooves or coatings or magic VooDoo spells.

Of course if you really wanted to develop some proper data, you could have three pressure test barrels from three different manufacturers put on three identical actions, load a half dozen recipes for each and send them to the lab! Bet you'd find that the grooves or bands or whatever are not the primary factor in producing "pressure spikes" but are the primary marketing factor in selling product!! (WSSM)

As I said before, I wouldn't suggest anyone shoot this bullet in a blacksmith shop made double. For that you can use good old lead or one of the many excellent soft copper driving band designs which some guys really love.

If you want something Jeffeized I would be happy to make whatever you like!! Just PM for where to send your Green Stamps and I'll get em to you in about 7 days! (Make sure you include a bottle of Ratzeputz with your order - El Jeffe!!)

LOL.. fair enough..

However... I have heard from a lab that bearing surface is a SURPRISING factor in pressure ....

but mor eon that when I have finished hearing the lab results.

I get pressure spikes with barnes TSX bullets, in 3 different calibers... are they huge? nah, but they bother the heck out of me. and the bigger the bullet, the more often I see it...

No problem.. just offering friendly suggestions on stuff the "ar" has learned over the last couple yeras with other turned bullet makers...

hmmm, just to stir the pot... i wonder if sabots have blow by/seal problems....no, not blackpowder or shoulderfired.. i mean TANK sabots

quote:

hmmm, just to stir the pot... i wonder if sabots have blow by/seal problems....no, not blackpowder or shoulderfired.. i mean TANK sabots

Don't do it Jeffe!! That will be the thread from hell!!

(I doubt it - very large piston area and very soft nylon sabot which is self sealing through it's geometry - blah blah blah yada yada yada bs bs bs.... )

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Originally posted by Canuck:
I likey!!

I only wish I had a 505 Gibbs!

Cheers,
Canuck

There is a well known poster here who has one and a mess of accessories to go with it - FOR SALE!!! Seems he needs the money for a new riding mower or something and has too many rifles. Let me know and I'll put you in touch with him.

I should have been more clear...I meant to say "I wish I already owned a 505 Gibbs, or wish I had the money to buy one and that my employer wasn't on the brink of bankruptcy.".

Cheers,
Canuck

What business are you in Canuck Meister?

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
What business are you in Canuck Meister?

The worst possible one to be in when US housing starts nose-dive, and the Canuck-buck skyrockets against the greenback.



Cheers,
Canuck Meister

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Slick looking bullets but a honest question:

Why the absence of grooves to the rear part of the shank of the bullet? There is quite a large portion to the rear that constitutes a relatively large bearing area?

Alf,
My only input on this was making sure the nose portion would fit the CIP throat that is merely a leade of .506" diameter at the base with angle of 1-degree-00'-11", and keep the COL under the CIP max of 3.830". This bullet does that just barely when it is seated and crimped on the first (leading) groove.

The full bearing .505" diameter base shank was Macifej's "vision" from the start. I do not object to this at all in a mono-barrel rifle.

Consider the grooved leading section as easing transition to full bearing as the bullet gets under way, a spike preventer for this "hybrid" bullet.

The tolerances and precision on this bullet are as good as it gets, but it is a "partially-grooved design" that is not a bullet for delicate double rifles.

It will not suffer from any accuracy or pressure problems according to my crystal ball.
I don't think it needs to go any faster than 2500 fps from a modern 24" barrel of .505" groove diameter and 1:10" twist.

It should work fine in the 1:16" CIP standard twist, but I would recommend being sure the grooves/lands are .505/.495 on the barrel.

I would feel fine with pressures up to 55,000 psi for my loads if I could pressure test. The 39Kpsi CIP pressure limit is outdated for modern firearms.

Awesome looking bullets. Great job on the quick turnaround from ideas and design to reality.

John

Thanks - I'm shipping out the 505's to guys who asked for them - there are a few boxes left too. Will be working up the .375, .416, .458, & .550 to go wih the .395 and .505 next week.

/

Alf,
I hear what you are saying but would respectfully make comment to avoid some misconceptions from taking root.

For the record:

I have never "slated as bad, no good and not worth consumption in any rifle" any other make of bullet.

"Gerard was quite adament that "his design" and none other was the way to go because it did not have the added bearing surface"

Bearing surface length has nothing to do with why I believe that drive bands are preferable over smooth or grooved designs and I have never said so. It goes to shot start pressure, or engraving pressure, or whatever you want to call the forces involved in getting a bullet from the case and through the freebore and leade of the barrel, and barrel wall pressure.

What I have said and stand by is:

Our HV, FN and SP bullets remain unique in the way that shot start pressure, gas leakage and bullet accuracy is dealt with. No other bullet, currently manufactured or manufactured at any time previously, have the specific design features that make GSC drive band bullets unique in these areas.

I have also said that GSC manufactures bullets from copper for specific reasons that have to do with terminal performance. We do not use any of the brass/bronze alloys, because they fail more frequently than copper. Compared to brass/bronze alloys, copper is more difficult to machine, is tougher on tooling and more expensive as a raw material. If we believed brass/bronze to be superior in terminal performance, we would use it in a heartbeat.

Pretty alone does not get the job done, functional does. If the two elements can be combined, you stir the soul.

Alf and Gerard,
Desperation for some .395 bullets resulted in the production of this bullet, a 330-grainer:



I will be testing it as best I can as soon as I can, this month for sure.

Our virtuoso resident genius Macifej, now started down this path, then came up with the .505 558-grainer:



These pictures are now on the web at the S&H site: www.2-bore.com
They make for a lovely comparison.
What's next? A true driving band bullet for the calibers that can be used in double-barreled and single-barreled rifles?

Maybe they will be called "S&H" bullets henceforth, however ITM (Inno Tech Machining) is the Swiss Screw Machining firm turning them out.

"SHITM Bullets?" I doubt it!

I have certainly found Gerard's bullets to be of the highest quality out there, but am open to trying really precision examples like these brass beauties.

What recommends them over the Barnes grooved-brass-ogived-FN-solids?

They are not under-size.
The linear dimensional and weight tolerances are superior.
The nose shape is superior.
They are smoother finished all around in every nook and cranny and edge and surface.

Maybe I am fickle or maybe there are suitable applications for a well made bullet of either type.

A bullet in hand is worth a lot more to me than a bullet in the black hole.

Back to this .505/558-grainer with SD same as the monometals and cup&cores weighing 570 grains for the 50-bores: Notice the skinny ~1/32" full-bearing "band" that enters the throat first when the bullet is launched.

What RIP said, but would adding the tag Euro at the end of his acronmym be appropriate to differentiate from a US firm? That would be like SHITME...

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

SHITME
Rich,
That is funny but, uh, who is the "Euro" here?

didn't you post that ITM is a Swiss firm?

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

I see, since S&H&ITM uses "Swiss Screw Machines" in San Diego, the "Swiss" gives us the Euro connection which in this case denotes a superior technology. They are a cut above the ordinary CNC I hear, but no, I don't know what makes Swiss screwing so sexy.
So you are not just shittinme, eh? Thanks for playing along.

Let's just say the "E" stands for "Enterprises" as in
S&H and ITM Enterprises:

SHITME Bullets, made in the USA

what can I say...anytime you need a straight man, just PM me.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Hey, publicity is publicity, so thank you very much on behalf of SHITME Bullets.

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Will be working up the .458 next week.

With marketing pros like RIP and IS I should be out of business in a few hours!! SHITME?

Gerard is absolutely correct in stating that there are some advantages to his driving band designs and that copper is generally tougher to machine than a copper based alloy.

I'm not sure that I agree with a blanket statement that pure copper construction is more reliable than a copper based alloy. Of course, field testing might resolve some of that debate. That's coming up shortly so we will see what there be to see.

In any event, there is an ass for every seat and some guys will make them one way and other guys will make them another and people will buy things for inumerable reasons. That's what makes a market economy boyz!!

So if you guys want to use all copper driving band designs then you know where to get them!! See Herr Gerard!! I'll continue to make custom designs quickly and with extreme quality.

And thank goodness for both of you! Although, I may sound a bit prejudiced; but having you available to modify a design and make a couple dozen overnight IS very comforting...are we spoiled here or what?

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

PS: don't start with that innocent look and mock outrage over the SHITME bullets, you had to have been the one that told RIP about the machinery!! You opened the door, he just drove a D8 thru it!