Which cartridge would you recommend for a Winchester Model 71, 1886, or Marlnin 1895 big bore. Maybe I could use a modern 1895 Winchester action.

I am not looking for a 45 cal, nor a 50. I am looking for a 40 caliber (.411-.423) that will throw a 400 grain bullet at 2150 feet per second.

I have looked at the 416 Barnes. It looks pretty good. Maybe the 416 Alaskan?

something with a tie to the past like a 40-65 w/smokeless and jacketed bullets, perhaps? Or something simple like a 400 Alaskan (40/50-110 Win Improved), or..........a 40-82 (think 45-90 case necked down to .40 cal)? Those for a new repro or original M1886. The marlin is too short an action for much more case than the 40-65 lengthwise.

good luck,

Rich

I have to have the 400 grain 40 cal @ 2150 FPS. Ido not think any of those will work. The Marlin handles the 45 and 50 Alaskan, so it would work, but I need a caliber that can accomplish the above.

I think a 50-110 case necked down to .423 or .416 Would be aripper of a round. !!

At the risk of sounding like an old fuddy duddy, have you thought of the .405 winchester? Worked for the better of the two Roosevelts.

John

411 Hawk (400 Whelen) in an 1895 Winchester?

http://www.z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm

quote:

Originally posted by PC:
I think a 50-110 case necked down to .423 or .416 Would be aripper of a round. !!

p.c.

i already camu up with this one and yes it would be great!

i am pre r+d on it right now

quote:

At the risk of sounding like an old fuddy duddy, have you thought of the .405 winchester? Worked for the better of the two Roosevelts.

I do not know if the 405 has the ballistics Iam looking for? If so, perfect.

I still need 400 grains at 2150 in a 40 caliber (.408/.411-.423)

Big Bore Boar Hunter took the words right out of my mouth. No need to reinvent the wheel when the 405 WCF already fits your criteria perfectly. The Hodgdon data for the 405 shows the 400 gr. bullets falling a bit short of your velocity target, at 1945 fps (the fastest load in their lineup) but it'll easily push a 300 gr. bullet upwards of 2400 fps.

Take a look at Ackley's 40/348. 400 grains at 2100 if you can trust his estimates.
I put my 450 Alaskan on my '71.
Have an original 1886 in 40-65 but it is very wimpy. I am thinking 40-82. or rebarrel to 45-70


Frank

Check out http://www.z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm and see Ed Stevenson holding the 1985 chambered in 411 Hawk.

I'm sure you can come close to those numbers.

Thanks for the help. The numbers I posted below are the minimums. This kind of rules out the 405 and others. I love the old cartridges, but this is the standard that needs to be used. Why? Because the guy I am researching this for wants it that way.

400grs@2150fps in a .408-.423" bore.

Needs to be a lever gun.

The 1895 411 Hawk looks good. He prefers an 1895 Marlin, 71 Win, or 1886 Win action, but????

Talk him into to using one of the Browning BLR Model 81 "Lightning" rifles that comes chambered for .300 Winchester.

Rebarrel it to .416 Taylor and it is a cinch for 400 grains at 2300 fps even from a 22" barrel. Or slow it down to 2150 fps, his call.

Or do the .425 Express and use .404 Jeffery bullets. Then it can be a LEVER ACTION AFRICAN SHEEP RIFLE. Only rifles of .423 caliber may be considered as such.

The .411 Hawk is pretty close to 60,000 psi and barely makes 2150 fps with a 400 grainer from a 26" barrel. And it has that tiny little shoulder ...

Z-Hat does have a really neat wildcat in the .416 Aagaard: .416/.376 Steyr Improved.

Is there an option in a rimmed case?

If you can get a new Browning or Winchester 1895 in 270 or 30-06, why not turn it into a 10.75x68mm Safari Rifle.

That round was designed to fit into a standard 98 action with minimum modicications and should suit that action length nicely. With modern powders and projectiles, you would get 2150+ fps with a 400 grain bullet at reasonable pressure levels. This would basically give you the balistics of the .404 Jeffery in a lever gun.

quote:

Is there an option in a rimmed case?

If your client must have a rimmed case then it looks like a 416-348 AI on a Winchester 1886 or Model 71 is about as close as he's going to get. There's a John Kronfeld article on it in Wolfe Publishing's _Big Bore_ compendium. Otherwise I'm with RIP; rebarrel one of the older steel frame long action BLRs for 416 Taylor.

A 416 Alaskan, even improved, is likely not to satisfy the 400 grain/2150 fps threshold, especially in a Marlin 1895. It would be close in a modern 1886 or 71. The best bet since you are wildcatting starting from scratch would be a .416 on a necked down 50-100 WCF for the 1886. Developing loads without pressure testing equipment for any of them would be dicey and that is where that larger 416/50-110 would help as you could just work up to your 2150 fps 400 grain load with an appropriate powder and be pretty sure you are on the safe side.

I've looked into this very same issue for quite awhile. The .405 win can be made to hit 2150, but only in a long throated barrel.However, the mag box in a 1895 win is too small to accomodate a cartridge this long. Thus the best I could do with a 1895 .405 win was 1950 fps. The .411 Hawk is reported to do 2150 with a 400 gr bullet. Since the 1895 is chambered in .30-06 this should be the best solution to the problem.-Rob

I stand corrected from my post in Lever Action Rifles.

400 gr. Hawk Round Nose, Reloader 15

57 gr. 2159 fps, Model 43 psi 58,700

So, it looks like the 411 Hawk in the Winchester 1895 would do it.

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:
I stand corrected from my post in Lever Action Rifles.

400 gr. Hawk Round Nose, Reloader 15

57 gr. 2159 fps, Model 43 psi 58,700

So, it looks like the 411 Hawk in the Winchester 1895 would do it.

That is with a 26" barrel, and that is one source of data only, and possibly not an impartial one. One rifle. Tiny shoulder and rimless too. I certainly would look further. Just healthy suspicion.

Wildcat time! That .416/50-100 idea sounds like the best, and it can go in a REAL COWBOY GUN.

Better yet, make it a .423/50-100 and it will qualify as a COWBOY AFRICAN SHEEP RIFLE.

Boom stick has probably got this worked out already.

Ken Howell says of the 50-100, 50-105, and 50-110: can be fire formed from the .348 Winchester basic brass, or use .50 Sharps basic brass or the newly made .50-110, etc..

The 50-100 is 2.4150" case length.

The 50-105 and 50-110 are both listed as 2.4050" long in the brass.

All are basically the same case according to Winchester drawings, reports Dr. Howell.

I now know where the .348 Winchester came from, a necked down and shortened 50-100.

.348 Winchester basic necked to the chosen light-40-cal and made as long as would fit into the 1886??? Rimmed

boom stick???

I may know a tad about the 411 Hawk as I'm the one that did it.

The barrel was 25" long and on a mauser action. I looked back through my records and that load was 3.28" long. The M95s that were from converted 270s and 30-06s would go to 3.25" but that was about it if reliability was desired. The USRAC 405s are pretty much maxed out at 3.19". So it is doubtful if THAT particular load would fit in the M95.

I had the rifle for over two years and fired many hundreds of test loads in it as well as developing the loads for the Wolfe/Scovill M95 411Hawk.

Those 400gr loads were developed early on and better powders were found later but the 400gr was never revisited (cause I don't make one ) so it is possible that "some" load will do it.

As M Petrov said in another post, there isn't a damn thing wrong or "dodgy" about the headspace. In forming, if you size just a tad short and you can't beat the bolt shut with a sledge hammer. I never had a misfire or ever had any problem working with it what-so-ever. And Ed Stevinson bets his life on it about every day of the season.

As to rimmed and the fascination with these big long cases, I've got to say (other than a reason to goof off at work on the interet), I don't get it. You are still limited to what the action will accomodate and the bullet don't give a flying rat's butt how long the case is. And that brings up another thing, where are you going to get a bullet that is made to only protrude .4" from the end of the case. Even so, the base of the bullet is going to be half way to the primer.

Nothing wrong in wishing and wanting but if you are serious, you better get off the internet and get a second job cause it is going to cost a fortune and I STILL wouldn't shoot it in a 71/86 considering the pressures required. Get out your wallet, wear your safety glasses and have at it.

Until then, the 411 Hawk in the M95 is as close as you are going to get.

I'll pass.

Depending on your barrel length, I think that gary reeder's 416 gnr (he makes chambers it in the marlin gun) would work. It is a 50 alaskan (or blown out 348) necked down to 416. I have one in a handgun. If you want something with a little more ..Umph. he also has a round based on the same case that he only rechambers mod 71's for in .476 caliber. I think he is getting a 475 gr. bullet up in the 2200+ ft/sec range with that one. It hits hard on both ends.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by jackfish:
I stand corrected from my post in Lever Action Rifles.

400 gr. Hawk Round Nose, Reloader 15

57 gr. 2159 fps, Model 43 psi 58,700

So, it looks like the 411 Hawk in the Winchester 1895 would do it.

That is with a 26" barrel, and that is one source of data only, and possibly not an impartial one. One rifle. Tiny shoulder and rimless too. I certainly would look further. Just healthy suspicion.

Wildcat time! That .416/50-100 idea sounds like the best, and it can go in a REAL COWBOY GUN.

Better yet, make it a .423/50-100 and it will qualify as a COWBOY AFRICAN SHEEP RIFLE.

Boom stick has probably got this worked out already.

Ken Howell says of the 50-100, 50-105, and 50-110: can be fire formed from the .348 Winchester basic brass, or use .50 Sharps basic brass or the newly made .50-110, etc..

The 50-100 is 2.4150" case length.

The 50-105 and 50-110 are both listed as 2.4050" long in the brass.

All are basically the same case according to Winchester drawings, reports Dr. Howell.

I now know where the .348 Winchester came from, a necked down and shortened 50-100.

.348 Winchester basic necked to the chosen light-40-cal and made as long as would fit into the 1886??? Rimmed

boom stick???

yes i came up with this wildcat and it can take the preasure the question is will the rifle...

i dont know how fast the 400 gr 423 bullet will go at 40,000 psi but i know it will be good for almost anything...can someone do a quickload on that???...

the 1886 is not the strongest action to do that on a regular basis...he might want to do a 416 or 423 alaskan in a marlin and just run high preasure.

the bees knees would be a straight stock blr 50-110 case necked to 416 or 423 able to run 60,000 psi

333

A Win M95 takedown in Teddy's .405 would be nice. I have one on order with a 30/40 Krag second barrel :-)

Rich

rich,

You've got class!

BLR in 300 win (or 7 win)
rebarrel to
470 AR
458 AR
458 WIN
416 AR
416 Taylor...

and away you go

jeffe

411 Hawk

That is a beauty, Dphillips.

I thought the original M1895 was intended for 45,000 PSI (not CUP).

When did it get beefed up to 60,000 PSI?

Is this just the result of modern steel, post WWII?

Sumbuddy please educate me. I am ignorant of lever actions.

Rip,
the originals might be, but the new ones are 270 and 30-06 loaded.

jeffe

RIP

In the olden days, before piezo, when they said psi they DID mean CUP, they just didn't know it. So the M95 THEN was ~6000CUP behind top bolt gun cartridges. Looking through a foggy microscope, that is in the ballpark of 53-54KSI and that is where I like to keep it. Yes, the steels are better but the M95 is still the longest and thinnest lever action ever developed. The gun can certainly withstand continuous 60KSI but the brass doesn't like it much. In the low 50s KSI both gun and brass can last forever. Besides that last ~8000psi only nets ~60fps. It just isn't worth it. I know because I developed loads for both pressure levels; ~52-53KSI for lever, 60KSI for bolt.

The guy with the actual pressure measurement experience always gets the last word ... and he agrees with the majority for an 1895 in .411 Hawk.

By the way Mike,
I was going to send you back some of your bullets from my trip to Zim. Problem was all of 'em exited and I couldn't find any! I used the 200 grain .308's in my 300 H&H. Very accurate and devasting on everything I shot with them.

I'd like to get a straight answer here. Will a M1895 (modern win) in .411 Hawk with a 3.25 COL and a 400 gr bullet hit 2100 fps? Pressure under 60Kpsi or not? Has anyone actually done it? I'm testing the waters to see if it is actually possible to duplicate the performance of a .450/400 in a M1895. If so this is a viable african hunting rifle. If not, just another pipe-dream.-Rob

DP

I meant to ask when you got back last year why you didn't take the 411 to Africa. Were you scared to get jumped on by all the anti-lever meanies on AR?

Rob

With a conventional bullet (full length core, i.e., short) and BLC-2 or AA2230, yes I think that is doable, in the 411, at a little under 60K. I can't prove that as the pressure barrel is no longer available. If you meant the 405 Win, I doubt it, but it would be close. I do have a pressure barrel for the 405 but I have never had the opportunity (or the justification) to install it on the pressure gun. Not much call for that info. I got the barrel basically due to my own curiosity.

I think the Marlin 1895s will only handle the 457 Mag and the 50AK conversions. The "other AK" calibers based on the .348 Win case are chambered in the Win/Brown. Model 71. I don't recall seeing an '86 rechambered in any of these calibers either, only the 50-100 and such.

DPhillips,
That looks like a Dennis Erhardt gun. True?

quote:

Originally posted by NFMike:
DP

I meant to ask when you got back last year why you didn't take the 411 to Africa. Were you scared to get jumped on by all the anti-lever meanies on AR?

Not quite , was anticipating a few longish shots and wanted to take advantage of those.

I've carried it on a few bear hunts and doing field work here, but haven't slung one of those 360's at anything yet.

quote:

DPhillips,
That looks like a Dennis Erhardt gun. True?

BB, the rifle was converted by Fred Zeglin at Z-Hat. He did an outstanding job, in my opinion.

Can you post (or send me privately) some close-ups of the sights on that 1895?
Looks like exactly what I need.

NECG sights, Dakota Quarter Rib.