.395 Tatanka:
5 gallon water buckets with O-ring lids sealed, full of water dipped from an old strip pit pond.
These were laid end-to-end in a trough made of 8-foot 4x4 timbers, pressure treated deck wood. A photo of the setup is on my cell phone, but I don't know how to offload it to the 'puter. Here are some buckets on deathrow, waiting for the firing squad. They were shot by a lone rifleman slightly downhill from them, kneeling at 20 yards:


I did get images of the bullets by laying them on the scanner:

(Top-to-bottom: 1600, 2500, 2725 fps)



(Left-to-right: 2725, 2500, 1600 fps)



1600 fps load: 38.0 grains of AA-5744 with a 5-grain dacron fiber filler wad

2500 fps load: 95.0 grains of H4831SC

2725 fps load: 96.0 grains of H4350

Five of the unfired new bullets were weighed:
339.2
339.3
339.3
339.5
339.7
Average is 339.4 grains and +/- only 0.3 grains for this sample of nominal 340-grain bullets. Excellent.

Recovered bullets by weight versus velocity:
1600 fps: 339.2 grains = 99.94%
2500 fps: 280.0 grains = 82.50%
2725 fps: 255.0 grains = 75.14%

Recovered bullets by max diameter and description of remains:

1600 fps: .659" = 167%, expanded down two-thirds of hollowpoint, symetrically, with 3 petals partially folded back.

2500 fps: .768" = 194%, broke off 2 of 3 petals, petals found in third bucket with bullet, one petal still attached.

2725 fps: .554" = 140%, blew off nose and left a widened, nose-heavy penetrator, one loose petal found on ground beside bucket train.

All three bullets made it into the third bucket, buckets each have 14.5" of water depth.

The two faster bullets both exploded the first bucket with authority, and the second bucket was split along its side, and they dented the bottom of the third bucket prominently, the fastest bullet of the three almost penetrated the bottom of the third bucket.

The slowest bullet popped the lid off the first bucket, drilled straight through the second, and the lid of the third, and came to rest in the third bucket without marking the bottom of that bucket. Bucket lids are 0.07" thick plastic.

More tests of the HV to come.
Gerard has got this one perfected IMHO.

It ought to have 95% weight retention and expand to 200% frontal diameter at 2400 fps impact velocity in big game, and I think it has 0.140 MOA potential like some other GSC bullets I have tested on paper and cape buffalo.

you and the Prof are going to keep messing with me here, and I'll end up having to build one of these...and I got too many .400+ caliber rifles now!!! JUST STOP IT!!!



Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Rich,
I am hoping to chronograph those loads again tomorrow to re-confirm the velocities and accuracy check a three-shot group with the 2725 fps load.

Then I will chronograph/accuracy-test the .505 Gibbs loads with the S&H Brass FN solid, the one you sandbag tested. No more penetration testing is needed there, but I hope to get the "Iron Water Buffalo" grazing beside the strip pit too. The bull frog tadpole content of that water makes for a good big game test medium of soft points, so adding plywood to the water and a calibration of solids to sandbags would be interesting.

Darn You! I decide to take the afternoon off and go shopping and this is what I return to.Hmmphh
Congratulations, Ron! The performance from Gerard's bullets seems excellent. Before I'd read to the end, I was thinking, "2400fps should be perfect, then."
I may have to build something, but the problem is, I live in town and hauling to the range is a problem. Then there is the range rule, only the standard target carriers are allowed. Your efforts are more than appreciated.

And to ISS Rich, Yeah yer gonna hav ta bild wun 2.

Max,
You ought to be able to do the optimum with your .395 Ruger Max, and then some, and Gerard with his .395 GSC. We are taliking about impact velocity so you will have some ranging ability.

Let me go look for some Accuload3 data for your starting loads ...

the 395-06 and the 400 Nitro Express derrivatives should expand and keep the petals with the hv's

.395 Ruger Max
102.0 grains gross water capacity
2.580" case length
3.367" COL
24" barrel
340-grain GSC FN:

AA-5744 ... 61.4 grains ... 50,300 psi ... 2460 fps
AA-5744 ... 68.2 grains ... 60,000 psi ... 2595 fps

H-4895 ... 65.5 grains ... 49,600 psi ... 2465 fps
H-4895 ... 72.8 grains ... 60,000 psi ... 2600 fps

Varget ... 66.2 grains ... 49,750 psi ... 2440 fps
Varget ... 73.6 grains ... 60,000 psi ... 2575 fps

The top end loads could be increased to 65,000 psi and higher velocity if Max wants to push it.
I am trying not to encourage him too much.

Those were the loads that look best, they range from a low of 82% of case capacity used (AA-5744 starting load) to a high of 94% on the Varget max load. The H4895 max load is a 93% case-capacity-used load. Shake room in all of them, not really max.

Primer, not specified, but I would use a magnum rifle primer like the F215 or GM215M or CCI250, with the starting loads and work up.

When you get the longer GSC SP and HV you can use the same starting loads and get higher velocity with the starting loads, and watch the chronograph as you work up.

The S&H FN 330-grainer should be started at the same starting loads as above and watch the chronograph.

The S&H BTHP Tree Wrecker/Elk Rump Roaster can be started at the same starting loads and likely give even higher velocity. Weight and length still to be determined.

I will water test that one too ... or you may elk test it .

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
the 395-06 and the 400 Nitro Express derrivatives should expand and keep the petals with the hv's

Boomstick,
The 400/.395 NE will definitely be in the max weight retention velocity range, and nearing max expansion point with the HV, we guess.

.395-06?
You are going to have to build that one.

the 06 version is the real only yet to be 395...

The way the boomer sees it

take out another 10 thou off the 9,3x66 taper, neck up to .395 for a 20 thou per side dg power cart...the 10x66 or 9,9x66

keep the shoulder position and angle and fireform cases

Never say "9.9 mm" regarding the .395. It is 10.03 mm actual, so we will let you slide with the 10x66mm BS.

thought 9,9 would be an easy headstamp conversion of 9,3

in the 400 NE they should be great for extended range with its sleek profile and damage at its moderate velocity.

assuming impact velocity of 2400 fps in the 400 NE that bullet will be the perfect all rounder.

with a double...one barrel with the hv one with the flat nose

9.83 mm = .387" = land diameter.
10.03 mm = .395" = groove diameter.

How about 9.8x66mm BS? That would be an easy headstamp conversion too.

You've been busy RIP!!!

I love these reports waiting here on my PC after a hard day in the mines!!

BoomStick! - stop trying to bastardize RIP & the Prof's pet project!! Make yourself useful and go buy a Ruger #1 so you can send it to McGowen to have it converted to .395!! We need you on the playing field with the rest of us!!

I'm even going to build my own .395 flavored rifle here too!!

Keep the data and the photos coming Doc! Excellent work as usual.

Brother Bear Head,
I want to test your .395 S&H BTHP Elk Rump Roaster in the water buckets the same way and compare it to the GSC.
Rich has proven your "metal mettle" on sandbags with .505 solids. The "Iron Water Buffalo" will be no surprises I'm sure, with .395 or .505 solids.
Thanks.

Gonna be tough to go from drawing to production to shipping to loading to testing to the first day of Elk season in 5 thats FIVE days!!! ouch!

I think we can do it! Didn't the Governator say that??

It will be interesting to see the results. Gerard is a tough act to follow and this is uncharted territory design-wise. Did I mention that I love a challenge!!

quote:

I'm even going to build my own .395 flavored rifle here too!!

only chicks can get away with being coy...spill the beans...

Is it a 395-300 win?

Ya want to see sumthin funny...
Here is the little known 375/400 NE that is basicly an 06 case with a belt and a long neck necked to 375...

If you neck up to 395 you have a 400/375/400 Nitro Expres

It will be a perfect straight belted case without a neck.

I would make a dummy round but both specimens are the only ones I have.

you can buy the 375/400 today from Qual-Cart.

Historical notes...the 375/400 was the precursor to the 375 h+h and the first belted round by Holland and Holland. Holland and Holland claim this to be the first belted case.

Boom Stick conjecture...
I guess they took the 400 BPE, took the rim off, added an extractor groove and stuffed it with the new smokeless powder...full circle, now we are stuffing the bpe with the original 400 bullet and smokeless powder for a true 400 NE and with this idea taking the first belted case NE and stuffing it with the original bullet again.

400/375/400 Nitro Expres

So your BS 395 is basically an hour glass shaped case?!?!

Interesting idea Boomstick!

Might have a feeding problem with the corresponding hourglass shaped chamber!

Of course you could have your rifle chambered in 395 BS Hourglass Express with the little known Atlantian Clam Action. It's hinged along the axis of the bore for "Easy Drop in the Chamber" loading!!

Naw...it would taper till 1.75" than be pretty much a parallel neck to 2.5"....no hour glass.

just a funny idea I thought...

basicly a 395-240 wby.

The upside is no headspace issues and no shoulder forming to try to get 400@2150 with a .470" bolt face and a std action.

the funny thing is this proves the case more for the 400 NE

From what I gather this is the only headstamped 400NE case so this an the rimmed versions would be the true 400 NE's

Looks like pretty good bullet performance to me and live flesh is a lot easier on bullets than water IMO...Good bullets on game the GS Customs are, they really grind a nasty hole.

I love it when a plan comes together. It is even better when it comes together on the first try. It is so much less work and the fun can start so much sooner.

The 340gr .395 is doing exactly what we require of it.
1. Assured mushrooming from 1500fps impact as borne out by the 1600fps picture.
2. 100% retention up to 2400fps impact, for when speeds are at the level where weight retention is more important than speed, in forming the final wound channel depth and volume.
3. Petals all gone at 2600fps plus, for when speed and wetted shape is more important than weight, for the formation of the final wound channel depth and volume.

This is the widest single-bullet window of application I could possibly hope for and one that can normally only be equalled by a multiple combination of bullets and loads.

I am

I note that:
1. Water penetration depth is more than three and a half feet. On game this will translate to exit holes on any angle shot on any size animal under 4000lbs and there does not exist a game animal that will stop the bullet on a broadside shot, if the bullet is launched at 2700fps and impacts are inside 300m.
2. The petals made close to the same penetration depth as the bullet shanks. It is a common misunderstanding that, when the petals come off, for some strange reason they stop penetrating. They do not stop penetrating and each will go their own damaging way. The good thing is that there are three at the most and not hundreds of microscopic dust fragments.
3. Bullets did not curve in the trajectory through the water. Linear, predictable penetration is a given. Quarter front, quarter rear, straight going away - Take the shot, it is meat in the freezer / trophy on the wall.

Thank you Ron, for testing and making a great effort. 10 out of 10, a perfect score to you.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Looks like pretty good bullet performance to me and live flesh is a lot easier on bullets than water IMO...Good bullets on game the GS Customs are, they really grind a nasty hole.

Ray,
Ditto, and thanks.

Mac,
The Atlantian Clam Action for hourglass-shaped cartridge chambering: Your genius continues to astound. The first ever true single shot action! One shot is all you get, then you need a new rifle.

Gerard,
Take a bow for the standing ovation, Maestro.
Bravissimo!

there would be no hourglass shape to a 395-375-400 or is it 400/375/400 or is it the 400 belted rimles Nitro Express

draw parallel lines from the would be shoulder to 2.5"

Just a straight belted case like the 458 lott

Just imagine no shoulder.
A 395 custom expander would be run in the case to take out the neck and shoulders.

Same .395 Tatanka loads of the test reconfirmed today over the chronograph, 3-shot averages for each of 3 loads, at 43-degrees F, with GSC HV 340-grainer:

1637 fps
2512 fps
2745 fps

Close enough. That 5 grains of Dacron uniformed and raised the velocity of the 38-grain AA-5744 load a bit. These were the velocities 5 yards from muzzle. Water buckets were 20 yards from the muzzle.

........I apoligize for my lack of knoweledge but what case is the 395 Tatanka .,.,

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:
... what case is the 395 Tatanka

gumboot458,
Thanks for asking. It is the .416 Rigby with shoulder changed to 20-degrees instead of 45-degrees, and with the shoulder starting at the same location as the original .416 Rigby shoulder starts.

Then the neck is reduced in caliber to .395 instead of .416. The intersection of the new shoulder and neck results in exactly caliber length neck (.395" long) at the max brass length of 2.900", as with the original .416 Rigby.

This is numerologically astounding!!!!It was meant to be!!! Divinely ordained!!!

You may also think of the .395 Tatanka as being similar to a .395/.338 Lapua-Magnum-Long, that has been lengthened from 2.724" to 2.900" in the brass length. Same shoulder angle as the .338 Lapua Magnum.

You may also think of the .395 Tatanka as the "Forty-Ought-Seven."

It has a gross water capacity of 129.4 grains.

It is exceedingly rare.

However, it is more common than the 400/375/400 NE designed by boomstick, AKA the .395/240 Weatherby Magnum.

hey...there is room for two 400 NE's
the 395-06 with 20 thou shoulders will be the plain rimless 400 NE.

or better yet a 400(395) fgc one of bent fossdals creations based on the 9,3x74 case.

Boomer! The hourglass is a joke. No one thought you inteneded to make hourglass shaped cases!!

So about that #1 you're gonna buy so you can have it converted to some sort of .395 launching device??!! How are you coming?

I have a couple projects in line already...

projects moving at glacial speeds

470 is near the finish line though

......Thanks,,,,RIP .It does seem pretty amazeing ..,.,., Which one is the one based on the standard belted magnum ??

there is a 395 gsc that is an improved 375 h+h case but no "win mag" length ones yet...the 375 ruger based one is on its way though.

........Who is doing the 395 Ruger ...I really do apoligize for my obviously repetitive questions but is the groove dia. .400 ??, All summer and fall I have been pretty wiped out by the time I got to the forum so didn,t really pay attention ....What is the BC for the 340 gr GS HV bullet ...

Hi Gumboot,
The .395 Ruger Max is the new .375 Ruger case necked up to .395 cal. I've got barrel, chambering reamer, headspace gauges (the last two furnished by RIP), and a left-hand Ruger MK-II at the gunsmith shop. Gunsmith's been elk hunting so the rifle won't be finished until this week. I'm leaving Saturday for a cow elk hunt here in Colorado. If all comes together, I'll be able to fill my freezer with the .395 Ruger Max. The Max part isn't my ego jumping in. Our Grand Guru, RIP, said it had to be... and who am I to question our religious leader?

Now, for each person up to the first 12 who builds a .395, I will send them a ".395 CAL" shot glass (2 oz). Oh, and Macifej gets one for his outstanding work on bullets.
Shot glasses for the .400 NE are on hold til the glassware place gets some in smoke color.

Yep,
BC of GSC .395/340gr HV bullet, per Gerard's calculations with Davis/Lilja/McCoy software at G1:
1600 fps: .520
2500 fps: .517
2800 fps: .518

For the same caliber and weight SP bullet:
1200 fps: .500
2500 fps: .704
2800 fps: .725

I still need to play around with H4831SC in the 95 to 105 grain range and H4350 in the 91 to 100 grain range, to find the best load for the HV and SP in the .395 Tatanka. 96.0 grains of H4350 still has air space: powder shake, rattle, and roll.

Whenever we get the official weight and length of the S&H BTHP Elk Wrecker, I'll run the AccuLoad3 data and send to Max for the .395 Ruger Max. The above data for Max will do for a start, or he could substitute RL-15 for the Varget, grain for grain and be safe with the S&H bullet if it is in the 300-325grain range for bullet weight and similar length.

We really need some good reloading dies to accuracy test, and it looks like the .395 Ruger Max will be first with those from Hornady. Max has been riding herd on that turtle, for the .395 Brand. Good job Pardner.

1.5725" LOA x 320 Grains. Shouldn't vary significantly from that. Will inspect them Tuesday AM & forward the data.

.........Wow ..,., Now that bullet in a 20 " barrel 395 Ruger Max @2550 -2600 fps ,mv would be possibly the best all around Alaska round and rifle ...In an 8 lb rifle it would rear back pretty good but not enough to be discombobalating...bear @ 10 feet - wolf @ 400 yrds ..

I think RIP will get around 2850 FPS in his .395 Tatanka.

The minimal bearing S&H .395 BTHP 320-grainer might rival the GSC HV 340-grainer in elk destructiveness and might be even speedier.

I'll run that length and weight through Accuload3 for the .395 Ruger Max for staters, then the actual bullet will be run through the water buckets for comparison to the GSC HV.
That is a tough act to follow. How to improve on perfection? Well, you do enjoy a challenge, eh?

Shooting 5-gallon water buckets lying end-to-end in a timber trough is sure a lot more fun and easier than herding the Iron Water Buffalo.
It is better for softpoints too. The Iron Water Buffalo is for solids.

IMR-4895 and Varget are the best powders predicted for the .395/320-gr/1.5725" S&H BTHP in the .395 Ruger Max, still getting 2610 fps in a 24" barrel at 3.367" COL at 62,500 psi with 69.4 grains of IMR-4895 ... even with that lllloooonnnngggg BTHP working through the magazine for running shots at elk.

I'll get some data to Max, later. Gotta run now.

Max,

Dang you. Is mine going to be ready when I get there so I can bring it back here and test it out or are you going to make me wait like with our 338WSM's? I know you got to have the first one. But, if you can't find a place out there to test it we could meet at the farm and wring them out there.

Brett
Also to be .395 Family Member