In African dangerous game hunting situations, where would you draw the line on the use of the .375 and begin to feel more comfortable with the .470 NE? I guess I'm talking type of DG, distance from DG, etc. I have a buff hunt planned in 2012 and I'm beginning to think I need to be much more practiced with the .470 NE.
I'm starting to panic!

Thanks,

jfm

375 will do it but the 470 will do it better if you can shoot it well. I'd rather see someone shoot a light caliber well than a big caliber poorly.
Get you some .475 pistol bullets and load some light practice ammo for your 470. Shoot a lot at small targets out to about 50 yards. Clay targets on a hillside work nicely. Practice practice and then practice some more. Also shoot a double shotgun a lot.

Sam

375 is the bottom end, imnsho ..
the 470 is a great DG rifle..

but, which one do you shoot better?

About six gazillion buffalo have been taken with a .375. Use the .375 and just take over the 470 for any follow up. Practice with both.

Whichever rifle or cartridge you choose, your most important choice from that point is "What Bullet Will I Use?

Choose the "Right" bullet!

M

You can't go wrong with either one
but
You have that 470 for a reason I presume and I bet that reason was to some day use it for Dangerous Game in Africa.

Take Sam's advice and buy a truckload of "plinking" bullets for the 470. Practice with those for a while and then move on to the loads you will use for hunting.

You will never regret using that 470NE on your Cape buffalo.

Take Michael's advice as well. Whether the 375 or 470, my experience as well as that of many others, is that CEB solids and non-cons will not let you down. I have had great results with NorthFork and Swift A-Frame softs as well as Barnes TSX/TTSX (and AHR X-Bullets in the 600OK and 585AHR) on Cape buffalo in the past but my go-to bullet is now CEB for big calibers and African dangerous game.

Either way - 375 or 470NE; CEB or NF or SAF or another SuperPremium - have a GREAT time and don't panic about anything.

Stay well and good luck,

jfm

I would practice a bunch with the 470. I would take both rifles.

A few people have used the Hornady 400gr XTP bullets meant for the 475 Linebaugh handgun as practice bullets in the 470.

If you do not reload, a buddy of mine had Superior load him up some 500gr lead bullets.

Sam

I wonder how the new lighter BBW#13s, 450 Solid, 420 NonCon would do in a 470 double rifle???

Hmmmmm???????

Those are the ones for the 475 B&M.

M

Michael and Sam,
I bet those would be great.

In my 600 OK and NE I load up some of Robgunbuilders 718grain "Crayola Tips" at the same velocity as the "big boys" and the difference in recoil is substantial compared to 900 grain rounds. The 825 grain CEBs are a pretty good step down too.

In the 577/585, using 650 grain Woodleigh BPE bullets - again, substantial reduction in recoil compared to the "standard" 750s using a target velocity same as the heavier round.

If I run out of Rob's 718s and he decides not to make more I will certainly ask Dan at CEB to make a run of light-weigh plinkers for my boomers. More fun = more practice. More practice = more fun.

Recoil reduction is one reason why I suggested duplicate BBW bullets in zinc. Use the same loads, similar POI but don't get a bad flinch.

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Michael and Sam,
I bet those would be great.

In my 600 OK and NE I load up some of Robgunbuilders 718grain "Crayola Tips" at the same velocity as the "big boys" and the difference in recoil is substantial compared to 900 grain rounds. The 825 grain CEBs are a pretty good step down too.

In the 577/585, using 650 grain Woodleigh BPE bullets - again, substantial reduction in recoil compared to the "standard" 750s using a target velocity same as the heavier round.

If I run out of Rob's 718s and he decides not to make more I will certainly ask Dan at CEB to make a run of light-weigh plinkers for my boomers. More fun = more practice. More practice = more fun.

The .470 is a double rifle, 99.9% of the folks out there should use the load it was regulated for and not change a thing..Its a whole nuther world...

Use the caliber you can shoot the best is always the right thing to do...If you can shoot the .470 as well as the .375 without thought of recoil which you apparantly cannot or you would not have made that statement nor posted the question which gives me the impression that you need to use the 375, if you want to add some thump to it then use the 350 gr. Woodleigh solids for your buffalo or even the 350 gr PPs.

I really like the big 458s like the Lottl Watts or Ackley or the 505 Gibbs, and I can shoot them well, BUT I have to concentrate to shoot thim well, I have to syc myself out to do so and make a effort not to flinch!! therefore I only shoot the 9.3x62, 375 H&H, 416 Rem and 404 Jefferys, and I have never had a problem with any of the 40 calibers, I can shoot 100 rounds or more off the bench rest any given day, I never even give recoil a thought..

In other words I know my limitations! most do not and most won't admit it..why that is I have no clue but I see this every year in our hunting camps, folks that are over gunned.

Michael,

Yes those lighter bullets would work great. The 400 grain Speer Gold Dots shoot great in my 470 They work great on hogs and deer.

Bomstick,

What is your deal with aluminum and zinc? Just shoot a lighter brass bullet or a pistol bullet. Those Gold dots and others are much cheaper.

Yes you are right Sam
Those gold dots proved well even at 2,400 fps.

My plan was to use the .375 H&H with 300 grain A-frames @ 2600 fps. After reading some of the posts on this forum I'm thinking I should be using the .470 NE. I just bought this rifle and I'm comfortable with the level of recoil but I just think I need to be as good with it as I am with the .375 H&H. I've only put 20 rounds through it and I'm accurate with it out to 40 yards or a little more so I would say I am OK with the handling of the .470 but just not as good as I am with the .375. This is the reason for my question. More power so I have a little wiggle room with a not so perfect shot or better shot placement with the .375 H&H. I'm planning to bring both rifles but I am not planning to have a gun bearer with me for a quick change in weaponry when needed. As I stated previously, this is probably just pre-hunt stress but it never hurts to get the opinion of some of the professionals on this forum.

Thanks,

jfm

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The .470 is a double rifle, 99.9% of the folks out there should use the load it was regulated for and not change a thing..

I'm asking, not arguing here ... if the sights are correct for the first barrel, why would it matter if the second barrel was slightly off? My assumption as an armchair only African hunter is that the DG would be at quite close range when I touched off the second shot and given that the target is large, wouldn't I be afforded considerable latitude?

and this not likely to be my last ill informed question

Most places set the .375 as the minimum caliber for dangerous game. It has plenty of power and punch. HOWEVER! If you can shoot the .470 accurately, give it a try. Buffalo are tough, dangerous creatures. They take a lot of punishment and a lot of killing. I took the top of my buffalo's heart off at 21 yards in August with a .458 Lott, took him off his feet with that beast. 4 more shots later, he was dead. Granted, he was dead and didn't know it but every time he tried to get up, I shot him again. They don't know they're dead and don't give up easily. My vote is for the .470

If this is your first hunt, I'd use the.375. Boddington's book about African Rifles and Cartridges II states that you will have to pass up 40% of the shots you would otherwise take if you use a double. This is because the bolt rifle will have a scope mounted. Of course you could mount one on the double, but then you've got an ungainly thing with, as likely as not, very poor cheek weld position.

I found this to be true. The buff hide out in thick stuff. You have to use the scope to see a path through the leaves and twigs. Besides, while hunting buff, you might come across some good plains game and want to shoot it at a bit longer range than a double likes.

I have spent about 10 days hunting buff and taken two. I have seen hundreds of them but have never seen a bull buffalo (a) standing still for more than 2 or 3 seconds in a position where (b) I could see the complete outline of its chest. That's why I use a bolt gun with a scope set at 2X.

Finally, I suspect your .470 weighs about 2 pounds more than your .375. No gunbearers, remember?

Well said Indy, I love the doubles and I have used them a lot, but I don't kid myself, the modern bolt gun is hands down a better proposition for success in todays hunting..The double is nostalgia and the need to go back in time, and that is a perfectly good reason to use one, but be honest with yourself, the bolt rifle is the best..I see 0 advantage to a double and it adds a modicum of difficulty to the hunt as do iron sights except on close encounters where irons and doubles are king, but today you normally have a PH, and other hunters to back you up.

Ramshot,
Your thinking is off center like your rifles group would be...A double is the same as two seperate rifles and you want them both to shoot to POI...Close range covers a world of conditions, like shooting through the bush at a black spot the size of a bulls eye or at and charging animal intent on killing you and you had better be able to thread the needle and stick that second shot in his eyeball or in the hair line on top of his notstril..It is imparative that your double shoot to the exact spot at any range and the second shot is quite the opposite as you suggest it is at an animal that is mortally wounded going away from you and you need to hit the hip bone and stop his motion at less than short range maybe up to 100 yards in fact and I have seen further and the shot usually get further and further away if he doesn't go down..Hope this is helpful.

It has been estimated by very good a very good zim Ph that if you use a double, you have to give up around 60% of the shots you could take with a scoped 375 bolt gun.

465H&H

If you love a double and want to use one then so what if you have to pass up 60% of the shots. I'd rather pass one up than shoot it with a scoped rifle. I'm there for the hunt!

I suppose 2/3rds of African hunting is for nostalgia and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. I just HAD to shoot an Elephant with a double rifle,so I did. Was he any deader than any other dead Elephant -- no -- did I feel more super or something because I had shot it with a double ---- no ---- did I shoot the next one with a double --- ---- again no, I used a 416Rigby and he was just as dead as the other one. Did I feel any different because I used a bolt gun ---- again no. Did I practice much with the 470 ? No, my first 2 shots with it at 25yards was in a 3" red dot and about 1 1/2" apart and slightly left. Factory federal solids. Probably shot MAYBE 20 rounds of handloads with it ,all under 50 yards as I had no intention of ever using it graeater than 50 yards. The only Buffalo I ever killed was with one shot from a 375H&H. Range approx 40 yards. Held for a shoulder shot. Bullet was a 300gr Woodleigh solid handload. At the shot the Buffalo reared up on it's hind legs and just kept going over backwards landing on it's back with all 4 feet straight up. So much for Buffalo and so much for the 375H&H which is my absolute favorite African caliber and I would not hesitate to use one on any African game except Elephant and that's because I lost my first elephant from a poor frontal brain try with one and said I would always use a bigger bore on Elephant.

So what your sayinf is you missed the brain and blamed it on the rifle...That's Ok I have done the same thing on ocassions!

I've used bolt guns and doubles on dangerous game - Cape buffalo, leopard and elephant.

I prefer and will only use my doubles from now on. For me, it is about enjoying the hunt and being proud of what I've accomplished. For me that includes using a double on dangerous game. If it limits my shots more than I would be with a bolt gun, I accept that limitation. I've passed on plenty of game when I've had a scoped bolt gun due to shot limitations or my limitations.

In the end I hope you are able to say "I'm so glad I ..."

and not

"I wish I would have ..."

If you can say the former then you have had a great hunt - game taken or not.

Good luck - you won't be wrong with either choice ...

Ray --- I don't blame the rifle for the missed brain shot. I of course did not place the bullet in the proper place. But it went EXACTLY where I aimed Just probably too high. What I rightly or wrongly blame the 375H&H for is the fact that the Elephant instantly sprang up from a sitting position and was gone in a flash. Again rightly or wrongly I believe if I had had a 470NE it would have stayed down long enough for me to get a second shot in. That is just my belief and on this belief I bought a Merkel 470NE for my next Elephant and did kill it with it but with a shoulder shot and he still ran over 50 yards before he dropped. I did put 2 more rounds into him as he was leaving to try and break his hip but one round went exactly on each side of the hip. I have never in my life blamed a firearm for a poor shot ever. You may have but I NEVER have.

quote:

Originally posted by zimbabwe:
Ray --- I don't blame the rifle for the missed brain shot. I of course did not place the bullet in the proper place. But it went EXACTLY where I aimed Just probably too high. What I rightly or wrongly blame the 375H&H for is the fact that the Elephant instantly sprang up from a sitting position and was gone in a flash. Again rightly or wrongly I believe if I had had a 470NE it would have stayed down long enough for me to get a second shot in. That is just my belief and on this belief I bought a Merkel 470NE for my next Elephant and did kill it with it but with a shoulder shot and he still ran over 50 yards before he dropped. I did put 2 more rounds into him as he was leaving to try and break his hip but one round went exactly on each side of the hip. I have never in my life blamed a firearm for a poor shot ever. You may have but I NEVER have.

If your bullet goes over the brain of an elephant on the frontal shot, it doesn't matter if it is a 375 or a 700 Nitro. the ele will still turn and run.

465H&H

465H&H --- Then maybe it was low as he SAT DOWN and promptly got up and then turned and ran. I feel if the hit had been with a 470NE or larger he would have hesitated. It is entirely possible and maybe even probable that I am incorrect in this,it's just my personal belief and I DID buy a Merkel 470NE because of that belief. You are unboubtly more knowledgable than I on the subject.