quote:

Originally posted by Woodjack:
Good luck to you Andy, Im glad youve got a rifle from WFH your happy with.[QUOTE]


I dont know what world you live in,But any correspondence from a customer that has a rifle ordered with deposit, deserves attention and timely responce.
Whats the difference bewteen sending a written letter,fax,email or phone call or adamn currier pigeon for that matter!, regardless of which one,your customer is taking the time to contact you. I would not expect a gunbuilder to pick up the phone everytime a person rang, otherwise things would not get done.
The idea of EMAILS, is so they can run their shop more efficiently & respond at any hr of the day/night they can. I dont have a problem with that system cause it makes alot of sense, after all it is the company who offered the email contacrt sytem.
IF one disregards a deposited customers email(s) about the delayed progress of their rifle, its reads to me as utter contempt.
If what Snowolfe is saying is the accurate case, no one is trashing WFH other than their own failure to treat their customer with some proffessional and appropriate courtesy.

I don't disagree but my understanding is that Wffn Hein has basically turned into a one man shop and the guy may be extremely busy. I know it gets that way for me at work, we have had numerous people leave in the last year and none have been replaced but the work is still there and has to be done, you know what I mean. Is it unreasonable to expect that the customer make a phone call to Greg before we try the guy in absentia and convict him?

Cheers,
Andy

It is unreasonable to expect the customer to call the gunsmith and initiate contact when the fault lies with the gunsmith. The customer has contacted the gunsmith numerous times by email and has less than acceptable service.

How many times have we heard the complaints on here about customers calling Smiths and interrupting their work, asking when their guns would be done?

No one here has trashed the gunsmith, from what I've read everyone has said that this guy does exceptional work that is worth the wait to them.

The problem is that is not worth the wait to the customer now and it appears to be mostly because of poor customer service.

The customer has paid a deposit in good faith and the builder is a year overdue. In this circumstance, the customer owes the builder NOTHING...not a call, not a letter, not a single common courtesy. The builder needs to be falling over backwards to communicate with the customer and it wouldn't take that much effort.

Greg should set up a group email distribution list of all his customers who are overdue by more than six months. He should be sending them a group email each month telling them of recent events in the shop and a new estimate of when their rifles should be expected. With every extension or delay the customers should be offered repayment of their deposits at their option.

I think WFH has done good work in the past, I talk to Greg a few times a year and I consider him a friend and trust he will get the work turned out in time. I have a deposit with him for an action that is also overdue. I have three good friends with rifles or actions on order with WFH who are frustrated by the delays and I feel some responsibility to them for directing them to WFH. The last thing I want is to see WFH go under and I'd bend over backwards to help Greg out.

So, where does all this leave me? I have to agree that WFH's customer service has been pretty terrible. It's also been pretty much like almost every other gunmaker I've run across (with a few notable exceptions). These guys have no clue what customer service and communication is all about.

For any business, when production problems get to this level the managers should go into crisis mode immediately. This means redoubling efforts to fix the problem coupled with customer communication that is off the charts. Set aside two hours every week and call customers. It might take a few minutes with one customer and it might take getting your ass chewed for 30 minutes with another customer. If you keep calling and communicating with the ass chewers, pretty soon they will quit complaining and thank you for your efforts. You just have to keep at it until you get to that point. It can be really hard to pick up the phone and make those calls after a tough day in the shop but that is one of the most important and productive uses of your time. You're not just a craftsman, you have to be a businessman too. If you can't handle the business side of your shop you really need to be working for someone else.

Just to insure this does not get to far off track I would like to restate that any and all contact with this company since I paid the deposit has ALWAYS been initiated by me. Even then, not all my emails were even answered and I have never received one phone call. Nor have I received any source of communication explaining the delay in production unless I first asked the status of my rifle.
I have handled this in a fair and patient manner. I doubt few people would ever tolerate a delay this long in any business related manner without doing something about it.

Snowwolfe,

The problem is that this is not a normal business arrangement because you (and me ) are hobbyists !!!!!!!

You (and others before you) have big expectations......BUT, Hein is a cheapo. Before you abuse me, consider the following.

At the shit end of town I have Wby custom shop barreled actions and I can assure you Wby (no engraving) is way more costly than Hein..and Wby is the shit end. Sauer, Blaser etc....same deal

If you search these forums you will find plenty of postings from very knowing people who will say that "H&H, Purdey etc" is over priced and crappy compared to....fill in the name.....just might be a reason for their pricing.

My guess is that stuff like Hein is priced too low.....but it has to be priced low because it lacks brand name. However, the low price....when combined with all the time wasted talking to hobbyists....and the lure of the banked deposits etc and etc.

When is the last time you saw Sauer, Blaser, Wby, etc and etc posting on the forums?

Do you feel completely happy that the Hein action would be the correct hardness?

If I was you I would write off the deposit....in reality it is not that much money.

Then perhaps make a new thread along the lines of....you have written off Hein and put it down to experience..... That way you move on and in the unlikely event that Hein is OK, such a posting will make them appear.

Mike

As one who has personally been through the "The Parts for my two 404 Jeffery, took a 2 1/2 year nap at a Gunsmith's Shop", I can attest to the frustration you have when he won't answer the phone, or emails. I've been lied to with phrases like, "The left handed rifle is almost put together", or "I have the barrel in the lathe now.". In actuality there was never a tool mark on any of the parts.

It took a Sheriff's Deputy, that I sent, who called me, standing in the fella's yard, say'ing "He'll answer the phone now." to talk to him.

Things just go bad. You need to get your money and go somewhere else. It ain't gonna get any better and the project will leave a bad taste in your mouth if you should ever get it from him.

Best thing you can do is find a gunsmith you can trust. That is worth more than any amount of money. The one I found, became a friend. Big Bonus!

Did I mention, he calls me?
Tip Burns, Canyon Lake, Texas

it's the price, quality, speed triangle..

you only get to control 2...

and, as my dad says "you get what you pay for, IF you are lucky"

All this reminds me of the sign alleged to have been posted for all to read in the shop of one Harry Pope, a fellow who I understand used to make rifle barrels...

"I AM OLD. I AM TIRED. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHEN YOUR RIFLE WILL BE DONE, TAKE IT ELSEWHERE...."

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
All this reminds me of the sign alleged to have been posted for all to read in the shop of one Harry Pope, a fellow who I understand used to make rifle barrels...

"I AM OLD. I AM TIRED. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHEN YOUR RIFLE WILL BE DONE, TAKE IT ELSEWHERE...."

I don't have a problem with that, at least Mr. Pope was up front and honest. I ordered my rifle from Hein 23 months ago and was told it would be ready in 12 months (when I placed my 50% deposit and it still isn't finished). I had planned on using it for a safari this year (leave in mid-November). Well I won't be taking this rifle. It is very frustrating and if I knew what I know now I would never have placed the order/deposit.

:::SIGH::: You guys aren't helping me out here...jorge

Gee, I hate to hear the bad news. How in the world did it get down to a one man shop? anybody know? With all the talk going on about WH on this board and the beautiful actions I figured they would be doing great.

I hope it works out good for everyone in the end.

Terry

After reading Crusher and Jeffeosso comments about getting two out of three I was wondering.

Since when is a 20 month turn around considered a fast turn around? No one ever forced this company to state delivery of there rifles would be in one year.

It is also unfortunate that I am seeing a pattern of my experience. I certaintly hope the owner of this company will address our concerns.

This whole thread is certainly outside the realm of good PR for Wff Hein.

Who said it, "Any advertising is good advertising."?? I beg to differ. Consequently, I am looking for a different builder...

My local(60mi)gunsmith will build you a rifle in 3mos from the time he gets all the parts together.He guarantees HE can shoot 3/8"3shot groups with it&gives you the load-$2500-3k depending on action,FGstock,bbl.if its a gorilla caliber you shoot it with your loads-hes a BR shooter.We take him to lunch once a month to make sure he stays healthy!

I have no problem waiting on custom work as long as people are honest. If it is going to take 18 months or 2 years to do the project, just tell the customer that. Don't lie and say 9 months to a year.If a customer does not want to wait that long, he can go else where. I would not right off any deposit made though. That money should be refunded at once if requested by the customer. The deposit is his until the product is made.

quote:

Originally posted by TC1:
Gee, I hate to hear the bad news. How in the world did it get down to a one man shop? anybody know? With all the talk going on about WH on this board and the beautiful actions I figured they would be doing great.

I hope it works out good for everyone in the end.

Terry

I would bet that the reason it has become a one man shop is because of poor communications.

As I near retirement age from hi tech.I've always wondered if a good honest man could make a rewarding living turning out really high quality guns on a real reliableschedule. Maybe I'll take the plunge. Other than Johansen, there is no ones work that compares to my own if I say so myself. The only trouble is I like to make stuff that turns me ,on not necessarily someone else. Although most of my custom guns I built for myself now belong to other people. Too much of an artist and perfectionist I guess. That includes some very big names. Craftsmanship takes time but reliability and honesty counts for more in my book. I'm seriously thinking about it. I'd probably be happy if I only did 10 rel hi grade guns per year. They would not be cheap but they would be done on time and flawlessly executed.-Rob

I'll bet that if anyone who has an order with Hein and is tired of waiting could easily sell their slot to someone more patient and get their money back. then they could buy a Ruger from WalMart or Kimber or Dakota or whatever else they wanted.
I placed and order with Hein and plan on getting it when I get it. For my money and time they are well worth it.

To paraphrase and old saying about price.
If you have to ask how long it takes you probably can't afford it.

458WIN-- I could not have said it better myself. Right on.

quote:

To paraphrase and old saying about price.
If you have to ask how long it takes you probably can't afford it.

Phil, no offense intended here, but there is no excuse for not communicating with your clients. No excuse for not making some effort to speak/email/write/voicemail/fax to answer questions that might arise.
What do we expect? After our initial conversation about what we want him to do, we are expected to never speak to him again until the project is finished? Oh, Please!

I get the feeling that some folks think a gunsmith of note is tantamount to a holy cloistered monk who will only speak to those who wait patiently just outside his cave.

Perhaps they should take the time to step outside away from their Sistine Chapels and see what is going on in the real world?

Just my opine.

Phil,

I agree with Rusty. I also get the feeling that Snowwolfe is worried the rifle might never turn up and if it does turn up then what will it be like.

Mike

Man, I wish Greg would show up here and offer some thoughts on this unpleasantness. jorge

In rifles and relationships, it pays to have no expectations.

That way, you're never disappointed.

I've learned that lesson (for both r's) the hard way.

Garrett

quote:

Originally posted by MHC_TX:

quote:

Originally posted by El Deguello:
All this reminds me of the sign alleged to have been posted for all to read in the shop of one Harry Pope, a fellow who I understand used to make rifle barrels...

"I AM OLD. I AM TIRED. IF YOU WANT TO KNOW WHEN YOUR RIFLE WILL BE DONE, TAKE IT ELSEWHERE...."

#1. I don't have a problem with that, at least Mr. Pope was up front and honest. I ordered my rifle from Hein 23 months ago and was told it would be ready in 12 months (when I placed my 50% deposit and it still isn't finished). I had planned on using it for a safari this year (leave in mid-November). Well I won't be taking this rifle. It is very frustrating and if I knew what I know now I would never have placed the order/deposit.

#2. As I near retirement age from hi tech.I've always wondered if a good honest man could make a rewarding living turning out really high quality guns on a real reliableschedule.

#1. I was not trying to imply that there's anything wrong with your feelings in this matter. I happen to agree with you (having been in a similar fix a time or two!!)

#2. I really doubt it-not a REWARDING living, anyway. I suppose it is possible for a real artist in metal or wood to command a price equal to his/her abilities, but most don't seem to. Maybe a skilled stockmaker or engraver might, though.... The trouble is, a lot of this is skilled handwork that can't be rushed, and theere is a limit as to the number of dollars most people are willing to pay. One person just can't work fast enough without it showing up quality-wise!

I received an email from Greg this am. He told me if I wanted my deposit back he would send it next week. I was almost hoping he would promise delivery of the rifle within a month or so but he didnt.
This is acceptable to me and I will post when the deposit is received.
For you guys who are interested in "buying my spot" you are more than welcome to take it.

Rob-

Depends on what you consider "10 rel(sic) hi grade guns per year." If you can make 10 in a year, then they likely would qualify as "real hi grade" in my or many other's book. Please understand I am in no way trying to be argumentative or telling you that you are wrong. I am just saying it does not jive with my life experiences.

I know of no top tier custom gunamker who can produce more than 6 in a year, and 4 is a more realistic number for people in a single man shop. Ideas that you can do this level or productivity, much less something at 2.5 times that, does not give me great confidence that you have the required experience and can meet said schedule. Maybe you can, but would need to see the track record and client list to believe it.

I am just saying this because you are 100% correct in that schedule is the biggest bugaboo in the whole custom gun world. I have interviewed many of the very best gunmakers, as well as many clients who own and still comission significant numbers of custom guns. Schedule is a big, big, problem, and their are no easy answers and there is no sivler bullet.

Schedule is one of those things that looks easy and black and white from a distance, but it can be complicated. For a significant portion of my life I was a project manager and my life was schedules and budgets. That is why I did that work-because schedules and budgets were naturally part of my personality. Given my education an dwork experiences, I increased my ability to accurately create and follow schedules and budgets. Very, very few custum gunmakers have had the training and experience in those two key areas.

And the 800 pound gorilla in the living roon can't be ignored-the margins just are not there. You cannot start today from scratch and be a fulltime custom gunmaker if you are going to do both wood and metal. It is literally impossible to generate enough money to tool up and live off of at the same time. In the past it was barely possible, but today it can't be done. This is by and far the Number 1 reason why there are schedule problems-the maker is about to be evicted or whatever and he must take a quick job to get some cash. If you price what is required to do honest-to-God top tier work, the dollar figure is staggering. People today have to buy equipment with proceeds from a "real job." This is the Number 1 reason why I have seen part timers get behind on schedule-the "real job" gets in the way.

I am saying this with a purly polite an dprofessional tone and sincerely hope you read it that way. I will also help you in any way I can if you are serious about being a full time maker. I woudl be happy to read your busines splan, or anything else. Your busiens spaln would be that place to start, as that needs to be at the foundation of your venture.

Rusty, In a perfect world there would be great communication and no waiting but when you hire a man who is one of the best at what he does and is already way too busy doing stuff he gets paid for - you have to realize that it is hard for them to stop to communicate with folks when that puts them even further behind.
When I ordered my Hein I was also given a delivery date but when you have been in this business long enough you realize that there are an unlimited number of variables to deal with --so I typically just place the order with someone I have absolute faith in and wait.
You can't mass produce quality -- or rush it.

quote:

Originally posted by Marc_Stokeld:
...I know of no top tier custom gunamker who can produce more than 6 in a year, and 4 is a more realistic number for people in a single man shop. ...

Especially for those who machine&carve the stock from a solid block without CNC programs, and also create other "one of" individual components for the rifle.

On another note, its amazing how some gun makers can see the sense in using CNC to make their life easier,which can require a bit of time tapping into a computer keyboard, yet it can be so difficult in their minds to spend a fraction of that same kind of time&skill to keyboard some brief enlightening messages to their customers. After all, if it wasnt for the customer,whod be needing to type into a CNC?
I trust most customers arent looking for a Mills&Boone love story report on their rifle,however, it is nice to know how the cabbage are growing.

Some of you guys totally missed the point the builder had zero communication with me after accepting my deposit unless I initiated it.
The builder established the delivery date. I did not. I accepted his word as to when the rifle would be finished and he simply did not come through to explain any delays and when I did pin him down to a new delivery dates he failed to meet them as well. It really is that simple.

This thread is killing me! Seems a lot of guys here and there and wherever think a quality rifle must be banged out in a blacksmith shop by some crusty, slow, Michaelangelo type. The CNC product is always better assuming the initial investment in engineering and planning is there. If you want to build 300 or 400 Hein or Granite or H&H or whatever actions per month you need CUSTOMERS and quality employees - not 2 years.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Some of you guys totally missed the point the builder had zero communication with me after accepting my deposit unless I initiated it.
The builder established the delivery date. I did not. I accepted his word as to when the rifle would be finished and he simply did not come through to explain any delays and when I did pin him down to a new delivery dates he failed to meet them as well. It really is that simple.

You are right; some members are missing the point!!!

A courtesy call that’s all it takes, be honest, don’t make promises if you can’t honor them. A customer has the right to know the true.

Roland

It is easy to judge between good and poor quality in a product but what constitutes poor customer service is quite subjective. Some folks want their hands held all the time and others could care less as long as the end result is good.
However poor customer service generates ill will and that in turn eventualy is reflected in sales.

I am not defending anyone or condoning any behavior -- only pointing out some realities of life.

A deal's a deal. Don't let your mouth promise more than your ass can deliver should be the watchword of all endeavors, not just the manufacture of custom rifles.

DO NOT PROMISE MORE THAN YOU CAN DELIVER.

What's so tough to figure out about that? Put another way, some would say and have said: Honesty is the best policy.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
It is easy to judge between good and poor quality in a product but what constitutes poor customer service is quite subjective. Some folks want their hands held all the time and others could care less as long as the end result is good.
However poor customer service generates ill will and that in turn eventualy is reflected in sales.

I am not defending anyone or condoning any behavior -- only pointing out some realities of life.

Mr. Shoemaker,

You have a sterling reputation and I believe you are fully aware about the word responsibility which is a reality in life. I don’t consider that poor customer’s service is subjective; in fact I believe the very basics of doing business are based on just that principle because if not, what can be expected from the end result.

Buying a new custom rifle should be an enjoyable occurrence, it looks like Snowwolfe is frustrated about his experience and I can’t blame him.

Roland

Hey Phil,

how many times has a customer booked a bear hunt with you, paid 50% down, you tell him 12 months, and 20 months later you haven't had time to return his Email wanting to know when he's supposed to come up and shoot the bear? For some reason, I have to meet deadlines in my line of work, and so does everyone else...except Hein, apparently.
If I book a hunt with you for next year, I would expect that to be 2008, not 2009 or 2010, or whenever you find the time...

A reputation takes years to establish, and one willful screw up to destroy.


Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Idaho, your are comparing apples to oranges. But I do understand the frustration of being told one thing and it not happening. I am not defending anyone - just explaining how things so often work in the real world of custom gunsmithing.
Do you quit going to doctors or dentists because your appointment was set for 10:00 and you don't get to see him till 11:00 ? Or get off an airlines because they have a "delay"? it happens all the time and knowledgeable folks understand that - right or wrong.

I'm no gunsmith but I am a small business owner (retail shoes and clothing). Believe me I am fully aware of the benefits and challenges of running a small operation. Invoices from vendors, payroll, medical and many other expenses all contribute to the allmighty cash flow problem.

For me, my salvation, if you will is my customer base. Many of my customers have been supporting my store for 20+ years I provide a good product, but now in many cases you can purchase X from someone else. What keeps them coming to my storefront and supporting me? Customer service. I used to have product differentiation but now I rely on SERVICE differentiation. I simply take care of my customers. There are too many alternative outlets available for me to be just a "me too" choice.

I and my employess make mistakes and blunders, everyone does. BUT I try to minimize these blunders and do everything I can to make thing right with the consumer. Can you please everyone? Probably not but I'll give it a good shot. My business and reputation depends on it.
You NEED to take care of your customers!

I know gunsmiths can be "artists" and some are "independent" businessmen to the tee. Please know that your skills may be great but also that reality enters into the equation...you must get product out the door.

John

What kind of shoes and clothes? Maybe we can support you instead of the Norstrom or Cabelas of the world.

Phil,
I agree there is no substitute for quality. I don't mind paying and waiting for quality.

Quality is why we went to the artisan to begin with. When you put money down on a product, no matter what it is, you should at least be able to talk with the craftsman on occasion. There is nothing wrong with the phrases "I am behind on projects. Your rifle won't be ready until at least. . . . ."

There is no excuse for not speaking with your clients, even if it is to tell them to "F**K Off". IF the gunsmith can't speak with his clients, his skills aren't worth the price or the wait! If the gunsmith can't factor in time to take care of his client base while he is doing a project, he is not getting the job done.

It is nothing wrong with the client wanting to be kept up to date on the project he has already put money down on. It is just plain common courtesy