This thread is an ongoing discussion in the left handed forum but I am sure it is not just related to left handed rifles.

This is an email I just sent to Hein yesterday concerning what in my opinion is lousy customer service.

Once again I am asking where my LH 375 rifle is? When I originally placed the order for this rifle on 2 March 2006 I was told it would be ready in a year or less.
March or Feb of 2007 I emailed asking the status of it and received responses such as "all the parts are here and it will be assembled soon" to "you are third in line". Follow up emails after that have been non existent unless I initiated them.
I really feel after waiting 20 months I am entitled to an honest answer as to when I can expect the rifle to be shipped. I ordered this in good faith with a 50% deposit and expecting it to be completed within the year time limit given to me.
If you do not feel like completing the order then please tell me and make arrangements to refund my deposit. If you wish to complete the rifle then I ask that you have it shipped to me by the end of Dec 2007. I am hoping you decide to build it but the choice is really up to you.
Thank you,

Why am I posting it here? Because this forum is a great sounding board and information from others here has help steer me to great rifles (most recently was the Chapuis double during the group buy) and has also presented me with negative aspects of purchases I was considering. I first learned of Hein rifles here as well.
This posting has nothing to do with either how good or how bad a Hein rifle/action is.
I really do wish they would just live up to what they promised me and not offer any more excuses. Some people think it is almost funny how these custom makers extend their delivery times by many months and years but I am not one of them. I expect the rifle to be finished when it was promised. I understand if emergencies occur and a good company would either call or email explaining the delays. The customer should not have to initiate all contact.

Snowwolfe, do you mean you placed the order March 2005, not March 2007? Typo?

I think he means March of 2006...that would work out to about twenty months. It does seem odd, I have always had positive discussions with them on the phone and Email.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Right, March 2006 to December 2007 hoped for date = 20 months. My brain fart typo too.

March 2006. Typo on my part. Thanks for pointing that out to me. I edited my post.

Snowwolfe,
I've got you beat. I placed my rifle order with Hein and 50% deposit on 11-04-05. However, I am getting the same song and dance routine as you are. Mine is right handed maybe they take longer.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I think he means March of 2006...that would work out to about twenty months. It does seem odd, I have always had positive discussions with them on the phone and Email.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Just curious, did you ever order a rifle or action from them and was it delivered when promised?

no, we had just gotten to the ordering stage. They wanted to see someone else do a 550 Gibbs first. It may be that that was a fortunate circumstance...eh?

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Snowwolfe,

I don't want to sound negative....but I think these custom action makers have problems and should be viewed with caution.

A mate of mine who posts on this site as Blair338/378 had dealings with Waffenfabrik Hein . He backed out fairly quickly. The advantage he had over you is that when you are doing it from 12,000 miles away the "alert system" is on in full mode.

Your story has been repeated on this site from day one....starting with Teenut's Magnum action. There has been a parade.

If I was you I would go for "money back"

Mike

I have bought 3 rifles from Greg Hein with one more on the way. As of this time Greg is working by himself. The 3 rifles (458 lott,375 h&h, 338 win mag) were all completed at once. The wait time was about 22 months. I do not remember exactly what time span I was given (maybe 14-18 months). I know I can pick up the phone and leave a message for Greg and he usually calls me back the same day or the next business day. All my rifles were outstanding along with his customer service. Custom rifles just seem to take a long time to build. Just be patient and let him do his work. You will not be disappointed.

That's some serious back-log I'd say! Doesn't take that long to bang out a Mauser clone if you've made one before eh? How many actions/completed rifles do they make in a year?

Well at this point I simply want my deposit back.
I do not care how great the rifles are. As a potential customer of a high dollar rifle I deserve to be treated better than I have been.

Snowwolfe--

If you really didn't care how great the rifles are there are lots of options off the shelf....

I have been hoping to order a rifle myself, and appreciate your frustration, especially since I am not a patient person. I am still trying to figure out where that project should be sent. At this point I have just been surfing and looking, not interviewing.

I believe that you are at least owed up to date info on how far along he really is on this project for you.

One of the reasons I want a custom rifle is a search for the best fitting, truing, etc. by hand to produce a firearm not available with normal manufacturing tolerances during assembly. I would be hesitant to encourage a rifle maker to shortcut the very process I'm looking for just to get me off his ass.

I also try not to piss off the chef when I dine out. Maybe I'm just a pessimist.

I agree you should be treated better....hope you can work something out.

Good luck with it,

Dan

I was seriously considering Hein to build a 338 Lapua for me. Via e-mail I "talked" to Karl Webber (sp?) and was impressed. I really liked the idea of a fairly local custom builder that could build the rifle I was looking for. From the info on AR I gather increased orders required more hires for the product to be put out and for some reason Karl decided to go away from Hein. I don't know the real deal, but it seems Hein is trying to plat catchup on their orders. Hein fills a need IMO in the niche market, and also in the mainstream. I hope they can get their ducks in a row. IF they can produce what they say they can (could?) they are a builder to go to. As it is, I will wait and see. Too many promise and don't deliver...and its not only the long wait.

John

IF, and that's a big IF they refund my deposit I will just order a 375 H&H MRC and put it in a McMillan stock and send it out the Mark Penrod to have it smoothed out.
Total cost will probably be less than my 50% deposit.

randy keep your shorts on your rifle and the wait will be worth it be patient. karl was never a gun builder more in the buisness end of it greg is tha man and he will get it done. slow maybe quality definatly also worth time to let him get them right. rushing these kind of guys never helps.

Some of you guys are missing the point here. No one is rushing anyone. I simply wanted what was promised to me when it was promised, no more no less. I put 50% down on the promise the rifle would be ready in a year or less.
Shit happens, equipment breaks, people leave, supplies do not always arrive as they are supposed to, etc. I can live with all of this. But if it happens I should be informed.
I respect another persons business and they should respect me in return. Especially if they want my repeat business. It is simply not good business manners when someone tells me when the rifle will be ready and then getting the song and dance routine ONLY when I initiate the contact. I am the same guy who wanted a 505 Gibbs built by Hein and they promised to put my name in the que quite a while back pending my approval of the 375. Well, duh....I know the 505 will never happen either.
As I said before, my tolerance for these delivery time overruns is non existant as of late.
It just frosts me to be told six months ago "all the parts are here" or "you are third in line". If that were true the rifle would be sitting in my safe right now.

SnowWolfe,

I appreciate what you're asking here, and I have no affiliation (or purchases) with Hein Rifles, but having had a dozen or so custom rifles/shotguns made, the fastest I ever received one was DOUBLE the time promised.

One custom Mauser ended up in my hands almost 3 years overdue.

I'm not defending that sort of customer service, but it's the norm in this industry.

In the best of circumstances (like that overdue Mauser I mentioned) the gunsmith would always take my call, explain why the delay occured, and we'd talk guns and hunting over the phone.
More often than not, I was very sympathetic to the 'smith's excuses: surgery, backed-up orders, or in one case, his finishing up a rifle for a client with a terminal illness.

It's the gunsmith's who won't return my calls that leave me feeling nervous.

Garrett

It does seem sad that some issues at Hein are causing this delay. One of a kind, or one of a few always seems to spells D-E-L-A-Y. In this case, I think the delay has ruined any chance that the customer will be able to really enjoy the rifle, when it shows up. Keeping the customer informed is paramount.

Sorry to see this happen...

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Snowwolfe wants an honest answer which he is entitled. I believe if honesty is what he wouldve been getting all along he would probably kept patiently waiting. If I were the business owner I would be calling Snowwolfe at least each month with an update. Shouldnt take 5 minutes. I know this would take time from work but the customer is why he has work! Right?

Mississippian,
You hit the nail on the head. I do not even require a phone call, a simple email would do. I been looking through the stack of emails I initiated to Hein and it does nothing but tork me off. Here is an example of one I received in Dec 06:

Randy,
Sorry for my delayed response. We have just finished moving to a new show which stopped production and took all of our attention. In doing so we have added some new machinery which will increase our productivity. Your rifle is on schedule for a completion around March, which would be 12 months from the order, I wish it would be sooner, but that is the best we can do now.

Regards,
Karl Webber
General Manager
Waffenfabrik Hein Firearms
(509) 979-1920
karl@rifleactions.com
www.rifleactions.com

Idaho, that is exactly how I feel about the rifle now.

Ok, I ranted enough about this issue. I thank this forum for giving me the platform to vent.

I agree with Snowwolfe. If the date promised was 12 months then at the first sign that the gun was not going to be available at that time the gunmaker should be contacting the customer to explain why.

It should not be the customer who sits for a year wondering what has happened to his rifle. Snowwolfe has entered into a contract with the gunmaker and has upheld his half of the deal. The gunmaker has not.

A man is only as good as his word and I don't care how good a gunsmith he is, if I can't trust him to do keep his word on delivery times, etc. how can I trust his word that he has done the things that he promises building the gun.

For all the people saying that the normal time for this smith is 2 years why is he telling people that they will get their rifles in less than 1 year?

Mr. Webber is no longer associated with Hein I believe. I also have a Hein on order with a 16 month delivery promise time. I went into this deal with both eyes open, knowing the odds of on time delivery were low. However, I do see the point, but then again, I've yet to hear of a SINGLE custom riflemaker to deliver on time. jorge

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Well at this point I simply want my deposit back.
I do not care how great the rifles are. As a potential customer of a high dollar rifle I deserve to be treated better than I have been.

"Ah! At last! The Royal Grade Purdey 600 Nitro Express my great-grandfather ordered in 1910....."

I agree! The maker should be up front with all customers about how long they are going to have to wait...... Then those of us who may not have that much time available can look elsewhere. "Time is money" applies to clients as well!

I had the exact same issue with a taxidermist on a rug. I finally got the project handed back to me unfinished but at some expense. I ended up having a local "newbie" do it and it turned out great. I think sometimes the great,wiz bang gun makers get a little strung out on delivery times and promises. It only takes one botched order to blow a reputation. In my case, I will never use that taxidermist again nor give a positive recommendation.

If I needed new mid-bore gun I would buy new Kimber .375H&H and be done with it. Glad to be right arm dominant.

I hate to hear things like this when it's about a small company that produces a superior product...

I understand Snowwolfes frustration with regard to time overrides. It can get under ones nerves no question about it and the lack of communication only serves makes things worse. Since it appears Dave Caboth & Karl Webber are no longer working with/at Hein I would imagine Greg is scrambling to make good on the promissed rifles & actions. It appears to be an industry issue compounded by staff changes.

Personally, I have heard nothing but, very good things about Greg's skill as a machinist/gunsmith and if you are willing to wait unpleaseant as that can be I would imagine that the rifle will be a pleasure to own & use.

BTW - I don't know the Hein guys but, was very impressed with the actions displayed at SCI.

Best Regards,
Dave

Just an update. My emails I sent last week have not been answered so today I mailed a letter (return receipt requested) requesting my deposit be refunded.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
IF, and that's a big IF they refund my deposit I will just order a 375 H&H MRC and put it in a McMillan stock and send it out the Mark Penrod to have it smoothed out.
Total cost will probably be less than my 50% deposit.

Have you talked to Mark about that? I was up at his shop in July and had lunch with him and showed him my Hein .450 Dakota, it was the first one he had ever seen and he was very impressed with it and if you know Mark you know he isn't impressed by many rifles. Ask him his opinion of the MRC actions (I did because I had 2 of the PH actions on order).

You would be very impressed with the Hein if you decide to wait on it, I'm sure that you will find that it was worth the wait.

Cheers,
Andy

Was there an understanding/agreement upon the initial offer to purchase/sell the rifle that a deposit would be subject to refund?? If so, is it in writing and what were the terms, conditions to activate a refund?? If no agreement(s) exist, perhaps the firm (Hein Rifles) would do so in order to maintain good relations with the public??? Good Luck

quote:

I was up at his shop in July and had lunch with him and showed him my Hein .450 Dakota, it was the first one he had ever seen and he was very impressed with it and if you know Mark you know he isn't impressed by many rifles.

That sounds promising! Like I said Greg's action/smith work has received very positive reviews from everyone that I have talked to...

Best Regards,
Dave

quote:

Originally posted by dsiteman:
Was there an understanding/agreement upon the initial offer to purchase/sell the rifle that a deposit would be subject to refund?? If so, is it in writing and what were the terms, conditions to activate a refund?? If no agreement(s) exist, perhaps the firm (Hein Rifles) would do so in order to maintain good relations with the public??? Good Luck

No written agreement at all on me getting my deposit back when I placed the order. But it was in writing it would be finished by March 2007. Since my emails are not being answered and they are 8 months past the promised delivery date I feel I have no other choice than to request my deposit be refunded.

And I ordered the rifle because I thought they were well made. I do not need convincing of this. I would not of ordered a custom rifle for $3,400 if I thought it was junk. $3,400 is a good deal of money to me and up to the time I ordered my Chapuis UGEX it was the most expensive rifle I ever purchased in my life. I just wanted the rifle that was promised to me when it was promised. Since they cant do that I am asking for my deposit back. I do not have any other choices at this point as I ordered the rifle for a hunt in Sept 07 and that has come and gone. I feel like a fool as it is for waiting this long past the promised delivery date. Some of you think a custom gunmaker delivery times are very optimistic. Here I was stupid enough to believe they would make me what I ordered in the time frame they told me. I guess I am pretty ignorant when it comes to ordering custom firearms.

Have you called Greg and spoken with him? If you have and I missed that in the thread I apologize. If I had put down $1,700 and was as upset as you are I would be on the phone getting some answers. Some people are not good at timely responses to email (I myself am one) and a phone call is better. I certainly understand your frustration but if it has been this long maybe he has it about done or is working on it. A lengthy wait for something of this quality is not unusual. I have had three Randall knives on order, with deposits down, for over 2 years and I still have at least 2 more years to wait but the one Randall that I own is so good that I am willing to put up with a 4+ year wait.

Cheers,
Andy

Be Careful! My Hein 505 gibbs was costed out at 4500+stock wood. I considered just taking the action, when it is complete, to another builder. Ryan Breeding quoted about 13,000 to complete; Empire rifles has not responded yet, so, I will probably grin and bear it!

Does empire build a 505? i'll call and ask tomorrow.. they have OUTSTANDING reputation on the 500 jeffe

To be honest the work of very few custom gunsmiths has ever impressed me. What makes GB think his work is worth 13K? Perhaps its his tig welded barrel recoil lugs( definately conducive to top accuracy) or his fine chambering technique ( looks like he chucks his reamers in a DREMEL TOOL). When you factor in the waits,delays and yes the problems you have to sort out its simply not worth it. Buy some really good parts yourself.Nice GMA or Johansen action, integrally machined barrel, island ramp, barrel band etc.,nice custom mag box and trigger and a rediculously expensive piece of wood and ship it all off to somebody like AHR. Send some money,Wait three months and go shooting. trust me you'll be a million times better off than waiting for WH to finish your gun all the while getting more and more frustrated. Hell you probably know more about whats worth having than they do anyway. I've fixed lots of very expensive guns from and top names and sometimes I can't believe the stuff they turn out. Their excuses are really lame too. Good luck getting your money though. Personally I'd drive over and retrive it in a friendly way of course.-Rob

The idea that a "custom rifle builder...." can routinely have extended delivery times is not one that should be tolerated by the consumer. Well, what is one to do?? Answer, don't deal with them!! I had come very close to ordering the Hein rifle but was warned by some others off this site that the delivery was very sketchy, "iffy...," etc. and elected to not proceed. As to your particular situation on delivery, and the supplier not living up to the agreement which was a commitment to you, may well have a case to argue w/ the mfg. that he has not met his "end of the bargain" and demand repayment of the deposit for non performance of the agreement. Do not hesitate to do so and insist that you want your money returned post haste and no other solution is accepted, period, end of discussion. Deliver this demand, yes demand, w/ certified letter and give time certain for the mfg. to respond. Contact your local lawyer in Anchorage/Eagle River and have him draft the letter. Cost would probably be somethiong less than 200.00 bucks. Well worth the money. Quality of the product is not the issue here, nor should it be in any situation. These custom builders are not "sacred cows..." and because someone else waited years for the producer to produce is not reason or excuse for you to accept performance less than promised. There is not social issues here, no friendships, no relationships, etc. it is pure and simple a business arrangement and both parties need/must live up to the original agreement if there is to be a satisfactory conclusion. You did, you sent him money!! Raise hell, stay after him/them and don't quit until you are satisfied with the arrangement. What, not very nice?? No place for niceties as some have suggested, we are dealing with a lot of money for a firearm. Way over priced to start with in my personal opinion, but to each his own and again, good luck. It is time for pit bull lawyers if the mfg. does not respond and satisfy the most basic of performance of the agreement. Firearms are sometimes purhased with the heart and dreams of the mind being the guiding light instead of the brain and common sense. We have all heard about the "little head and the big head..." stories and often times this is the case with firearms purchasing, me included!! Good Luck.

This is starting to spiral out of control with talk of lawyers and certified letters and such before the guy has had a chance to defend himself. Has anyone been screwed by Wffn Hein yet? I don't think so.

Wffn Hein builds rifles, and damned fine ones at that, I'm looking at one sitting in my safe right now that proves that out so I don't believe anyone is in any danger of getting screwed on this deal.

I ask again, has Snowwolfe called and spoken with Greg Hein regarding the status of his rifle and deposit or has he only sent emails? Perhaps with the departure of Karl Weber Greg has been too busy trying to handle both the administrative aspects of the business and the actual manufacturing to answer emails in a timely fashion. Before you guys start dragging Greg and his company through the mud has any attempt been made to contact him and make him aware of this other than by email?

I am going to send him a PM to alert him to this thread.

Andy

I have emailed and I have sent a certified letter (yesterday).
I see no reason to call him at this point as he has my number, my address, and my email address. I have done nothing wrong. I simply want what was promised to me when it was promised or my deposit back.
No one from Hein ever emailed me explaining a delay unless I initiated the first email.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
I see no reason to call him at this point

Why?

Doesn't he deserve the courtesy of a phone call before the attack dogs on AR (not you, mind you, but you've been around AR long enough to know how nasty these guys can get with little provocation) trash him all over the web?

Cheers,
Andy