quote:

Originally posted by bigdoggy700:
I.S.
With 2700 ft/sec and 600 grain bullets, you are certainly getting into big boy toy land and big boy recoil with 9700 ft. lbs of energy. Sounds great!!

Bigdoggy700,

Sounds great??? Sounds like a load of nonsense actually. As you rightly say, "toy land", as this is totally unnecessary, uncontrollable and simply a hazard, should it be considered for real life African big game hunting.

I've yet to discover why the venerable name "Gibbs" has been attached to such a nutty project. My George Gibbs .505 (80 years old) is extremely pissed off by this hijacking of trade mark and goodwill!

Don't be fooled - the wheel has been re-invented about seventeen million times; the original was never bettered.

Richard.

Author of: The Hunting Imperative; African Epic; Ndlovu - The Art of Hunting the African Elephant. (Available from: Rowland Ward Publications and Safari Press)

I would love to see pics of yer 505

the Gibbs name is the nomenclature of such carts with a parent case. I guess it should be called the 505/550 Gibbs but plain 550 looks better.

Again...would love to see the pics of yer rifle. I am sure it is a beauty and could tell many tales.

Harland,

assigning human characteristics to an inanimate object is often a sign of psychosis or senility...are you sure that the aides are not putting something in your oatmeal at the home?

One of the great freedoms we enjoy here in America is the option of wildcatting cartridges to suit any real or fancied needs. I checked the proper government agencies, to a man they concurred that getting clearance from citizens of black majority dictatorships in Africa was no longer necessary to design or construct big game rifles.

The other great thing we have here; if we do not like something someone else is doing, we can simply choose to ignore it.

When you look in the mirror, does the term Supercilious come to mind? Most new members try and accrue at least 100 posts of value before they appoint themselves arbiters of other people's choices in firearms, automobiles, women, cigars, or alcohol. I think I went over 150 before I started trying to be a nanny to the group.

Tell your Gibbs it is, in fact, a rip off of the original 577/500NE; with merely cutting the rim off and reshaping the original case...does that make my 550 Gibbs a rip off of a rip off?

You may be somewhat of a writer, but thousands of grade school American children contribute to their school newspapers, so you are in a rather large community.

I do appreciate your situation, with the heat and humidity there, your poor old Gibbs could badly corrode it's barrel if you aren't careful.

You should probably N-O-T read about Ed Hubel and Boomstick's 577 BME those sacrilegious scoundrels are not only necking your sacred 505 case up to .577 caliber, they have the gall to swage a belt on it.

Try not to have a coronary, especially if a US manufacturer adapts either of these cartridges for commercial production.

Good day,

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost..

PS: I'll keep posting as to accuracy, velocity, and power levels, you keep whining...it will give both of us something to do all day.

quote:

Tell your Gibbs it is, in fact, a rip off of the original 577/500NE; with merely cutting the rim off and reshaping the original case...does that make my 550 Gibbs a rip off of a rip off?

Can our resident cartidge historian Alf Shed some light on this extreme coincidence...

and this is the same harland that WASNT a turd about the 416 taylor?

That you don't choose it to be for you? Great... does it belong in africa? doesn't matter, this is BIG BORES not AFRICAN HUNTING..
less than .01% of american hunters will go to africa.. probably less than .00001, if we aactually look at the number of hunters in the countries vs the number in africa.

hell, the 700 nitro meets all your conditions, but i guess with an HH label on it, it meets your critereon for being "okay"....

the gibbs is a rip off of the 12.75 schuler, just bigger and DUMBER as it allows for use of british powders, rather than german flake.

oh well..

btw harland... there is now 4 total .550 cases, no "reinvention" of JACK.. The 550 Gibbs, 550 Magnum, 550 Express, and 550 Flanged... and I have the priviledge of being the first person to EVER shoot 2 of those 4...

If you don't like american rock busting big bores, great... if YOU don't judge them to be "africa ready" fine...
does anyone have to care? other than the fella watching you shave, no, they don't

If the 577 NE basis for a 577/500 NE is all of .6620" base diameter (with .7500" rim), how can it possibly be ripped off to form the .505 Gibbs with base diameter of .6400"?

Uh oh, this is turning into the 28-guage that makes hell look hospitable.

The 28-guage, er, uh .550 bore, er, uh .550 caliber rifle on the Rigby sized Weatherby case makes all the sense in the world, to me, especially if kept down to about 2150 fps with a 700-grainer. I can handle that in a 10.5 pound rifle, I am sure.

Since I have no need to prove my manhood any further, I shall bug out now.

quote:

If the 577 NE basis for a 577/500 NE is all of .6620" base diameter (with .7500" rim), how can it possibly be ripped off to form the .505 Gibbs with base diameter of .6400"?

Check COTW

boomie,
Just couldn't let me bug out, eh?
Just what do you want me to check in COTW?

COTW says the base diameter of the 577NE is .660", Ken Howell says it is .6620" (Max spec from "ICI Metals Ltd dwg"). No big difference.

COTW says .635" base diameter for the .505 gibbs, Ken Howell gives .6400" (Birmingham Proof House) and he also shows a second drawing with .6402" (CIP Maximums).

577NE still way different from the .505 Gibbs.

The 577NE is 3.0000" long.
The .505 Gibbs is 3.1500" long.

IRP!

quote:

as this is totally unnecessary, uncontrollable and simply a hazard

Excellent! I love that kind of stuff!!!!

Sorry, my mistake Rip it is in another book not COTW

Per Donnelly Cartrigde Conversions

577/500 Magnum Nitro Express 1905
3.13 length
.717 rim
casehead .645

505 Gibbs 1910
3.15 length
.640 rim and casehead


It would make sense that the 577/500 be a 577 casehead but...

Is this a typo or reality?

Can someone post a measured 577/500 case???

Donnelly is an order of magnitude less reliable than Howell.
I'll look at the official CIP spec on the 577NE: done, .6612" base and .7512" rim max CIP dimensions.

But ... Donnelly does refer to .660" for .577NE.
He specifies .645" head diameter and 3.13" length is specified for the ".577/500 Magnum Nitro Express" of 1905.

This could indeed be the basis for the .505 Gibbs of 1910.

BUT this is not a Kosher progression to call it a 577/500, because the .577 NE 2.75" and 3"are descended from 1880's BP cartridges of .660" base diameter.

O.K. it just stinks anyway you cut this cheese.

quote:

This could indeed be the basis for the .505 Gibbs of 1910.

This knowledge was passed on to me by Rich

Alrighty then!
I learned another bit of trivia. It makes sense if you accept that 1905 cartridge creation leading to the .505 Gibbs of 1910, not the true .577NE basis going back to the 1880's.

THE .505 Gibbs has bastard origins!!!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Alrighty then!
I learned another bit of trivia. It makes sense if you accept that 1905 cartridge creation leading to the .505 Gibbs of 1910, not the true .577NE basis going back to the 1880's.

THE .505 Gibbs has bastard origins!!!

Don't tell Harland his 505 is a living bastard child!

But Donnelly also claims an 1883 BP cartridge leading to what is called the .577/500 #2 Nitro Express that has a head/base diameter of .641" and brass length of 2.81".

That must be the .505 Gibbs illegitimate grandpa.

What could be more fitting for bolt action trash like the .505 Gibbs?

There two separate bloodlines of .577 case head. The legitimate .577 case head for doubles. The bastard for bolts.

the 450/400 was turned into a bolt action cart.

Alf has a pic of one.

Then it morphed to become the 404 jeffery

Yes, I do recall that lecture.

You know that the legitimate 400 NE should have been done with the .395 caliber bullet.

The .405-caliber bullet by Purdey was the bastardization of the 400 NE 3".

We have fixed that: 400/.395 Nitro Express.

Well, it seems the .505 Gibbs was a double bastardization of the legitimate 577 NE case and the .510-caliber 500 NE bullet.
Please don't any Gibbs fans take this too seriously. All in fun , but true.

577/500 is .645, ... at least that is what the bertram brass, and dave manson, and then I decided to use for the 550 flanged ...

that is, the 550 flanged, which is an improved 577/500 necked to .550 ..

.645 .. .640 ... aint much difference, and the .640 came AFTER and OUT of the 577/500...

i spent a couple months sorting and fretting over that case

does this mean the 550 flanged is a 577/500/550
or 550-577/510

577/500/540 NE in british terms, as its .540 bore, .550 groove

waaaaaaaah!

I DO need to get Ken's book, but Donnelly has been good on dimensions I have cross-referenced.

RIP, add this to your oddities file, the Enfield 505 Gibbs I bought last month came with an assortment of brass, bullets, and dies. Eight of the fired 505 Gibbs cases I have are head stamped BELL across the top, and .577NE across the bottom. Someone had taken the time to turn the rim off and then make a cutter the proper radius to replicate the original 505 Gibbs case. I'll try and get a couple of pictures to Boomie to post. Yes, I know they work, they have been fired a couple times each.

The fourth thing we are going to do during the Shootout, right after shooting my Two Bastard Big Boys, and enjoying some Glen Fiddich or Corralejo Reposado (blue bottle)and cigars; is have Boomie show me how to post pictures here.

The .577/500 #2 Nitro Express (2.81") seems to have been introduced about three years after the .577 Nitro Express 2.75, circa 1883. Both were, as you say, black powder loads originally, then converted to cordite. The extra length of the .500 would be a natural consequence of necking the .577 down to .500. It is interesting to note, that while the first "modern".577 NE was a 3" case, the .577/500 Magnum Nitro Express was "stretched" to 3.13.

Let me sketch out the "Gibbs Family Tree" if I can.
1880: .577 2 3/4" BPE then Nitro Express 2 3/4"
1883 .577/500 #2 BPE, 2.81" case
? .577 Nitro Express 3" case, cordite
1905 .577/500 Magnum Nitro Express 3.13" case, cordite

This is based on data from Donnelly's book

Then, the bawstid side appears. Gibbs (most)likely admired the ballistics of the .577/500MNE 3.13" case, and decided to remodel it for boltaction rifles about 1910. One might say he "took a walk on the wild side...".
He would have had to do very little, except make an "Improved Rimless .577/500MNE". He went over to the Dark Side completely by reducing the bullet diameter by .005". I expect he did that to insure buyers would have to come to him for bullets. No other manufacturer at the time seemed to make ammunition for others proprietary cartridges; which was about all of them. The .577NE 3" being a notable exception. The .577/500MNE is supposed to have been a 465gr SP or Solid at 2150fps. All of the oddballs developed after the Sepoy Rebellion sported about the same ballistics. One worked about as well as any other, keeping British sportsmen alive in the DG fields.

I guess this makes Harland's 505 the remittance man of Dangerous Game cartridges...

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

The new bore is good for cornering the market like the 500 smith and wesson with its .500" dia bullet when the .510" was working fine for 130 years.

Seems Gibbs was a business man too.

Whatever extends yer pinky

And now we know.
Thanks for the enlightenment, Rich.

Dang! CIP has more rimmed cartridges than you can shake a stick at, more than any other class, but that is not half of what has come and gone.

One interesting STANDOUT in the CIP pressure listings is the page where the 400 N.E.B.P.3"Purdey appears. Can you believe that name???!!!

On that page it is the only cartridge that has no pressure data listed!!! And it is the only cartridge that is not updated with the latest revision date!!!

This tells me that CIP also believes this cartridge is the pretender to the 400 NE title, not worthy of standard attention. Everything else from "38-40 Win." to "4 Bore Rifle" on that page got updated and pressures listed.

So we can only imagine that CIP is awaiting the second coming of the 400/.395, finally in true Nitro Express loading.



Now back to the 28-guage sluggers from hell. Afterall this is America, Land of the Free, free to wildcat until you go blind.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
Yes, I do recall that lecture.....

Well, it seems the .505 Gibbs was a double bastardization of the legitimate 577 NE case and the .510-caliber 500 NE bullet.
Please don't any Gibbs fans take this too seriously. All in fun , but true.

RIP,

Thanks, friend. I LOVE it! I really do - to see who reveals themselves as having a sense of humour and those who take themselves and life just a touch too seriously. The latter will be relieved that harland has now crept back into his little hole in the ground. Adios.
Richard.

Neither do I like the bastardisation of George Gibbs name.

But, as you nowadays can buy a Chevrolet that is made in Korea I understand the way of thinking in the USA

Husky,

it's an American tradition. It comes from not having enough government supervision in our hobbies like you do in Sweden. Y'see, here we can own as many firearms as we want, any kind we want, and we can do pretty much what we want in terms of sporting arms and ammunition development.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

PS: I'm going to give you a pass this time, what can you expect from a country whose greatest contribution of the
twentieth century is ABBA...?

Harland,

just so you know, my post was just being obnoxious, but in the best sense of the word. I very much respect what you have contributed in your writings. Should we send your Gibbs a depends?

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Rich...dont piss off sweeden...there are too many pretty girls over there

I dont remember people getting out of sorts for the 510-505 Gibbs

Come on guys...he already has a 505 and wants to trail blaze for those not faint of heart when it comes to BIIIG bores. applaud him for his taking the path less traveled and more pain.

Boomie,

may be, but they aren't coming over to have any sort of carnal experience with me...or you!

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

A man can dream cant he

ISS,
I hope you have a good surgeon to remove your thumb from you frontal lobe, but I doubt that you will remember your new found friends!

I will post clips of rich's mastery of recoil from the shootout

I GOT IT!!!!!!!!!!! And it's raining here! I thought I's save some time, so I had a local shop contour the barrel to match the original 505 Gibbs barrel on the rifle. Wrong...! The 550 Gibbs, weighs ten and one half-pounds empty, sans any sights. My gunsmith is leaving in the morning to take his wife to see some specialist, and will not be back until the weekend. No problem there. I weighed it again, it still only weighs 10.5 pounds empty.

I am headed out in the morning to shoot the first half a dozen rounds, 715gr cast bullet with 125gr of VVoY 160, 165, and 170. If I make it back to the house, I'll post some chrono data and first impressions. It looks like the .577BME will be up and running in four to six weeks. My guy here is good enough to make dies for me, and all of the other widgets I need/want.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

I see some mercury recoil reducers in yer future...

Thanks Ray...I think.

Is that like the old saying "...I'd rather have a free bottle in front of me than a prefrontal lobotomy..."?

I'll send Boomie some pictures to post after I get back tomorrow. I'm trying to sucker, errrrrr talk IdahoChukar2 into driving out to the house and go shooting with me.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
I GOT IT!!!!!!!!!!! And it's raining here! I thought I's save some time, so I had a local shop contour the barrel to match the original 505 Gibbs barrel on the rifle. Wrong...! The 550 Gibbs, weighs ten and one half-pounds empty, sans any sights. My gunsmith is leaving in the morning to take his wife to see some specialist, and will not be back until the weekend. No problem there. I weighed it again, it still only weighs 10.5 pounds empty.

I am headed out in the morning to shoot the first half a dozen rounds, 715gr cast bullet with 125gr of VVoY 160, 165, and 170. If I make it back to the house, I'll post some chrono data and first impressions. It looks like the .577BME will be up and running in four to six weeks. My guy here is good enough to make dies for me, and all of the other widgets I need/want.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...

Rich, throw an ammo carrier on the buttstock. Fill it with carts.
And the heaviest scope you have.

Hey Rich! If you like shooting that featherweight ATR I have something else for you to test!!

Rich,
This form of shock therapy seems to be very therapeutic for many of us. Smaller doses done frequently enough work for most. I suppose some individuals may require larger doses to get the desired effect. If you have found the proper dose for you, I am really happy for you. Be careful to keep your thumb out of your frontal lobes. That would be totally unnecessary.

RIP & Macifej,

thanks for your kind words...I think I will duct tape ten pounds of lead to the fore end.

Rich
DRSS
Knowledge not shared is knowledge lost...