I am taking my son to Africa for Cape Buff next September. I have obtained a nice VZ 24 action. My question is this: He has never shot much other than a 270 and think that he might be recoil sensitive or at least become such. Would it better to build a 9.3 or should I step up to 416 Taylor or even a 458? Would there be in difference in feeding and extraction capabilities between these cartridges? Thank you

9.3 x 62 is a piece of cake on a VZ, 416 is only a bit harder.

A 9.3 x 62 with a North Fork 250 grain, or a Nosler Partition 286 grain would get the job done.

How old is your boy? How big is he?

If you went the 416 Taylor route, you could start him with 350 grain hard cast, gas checked bullets over some 5744 at 1,900 fps, and work up slowly.

On the first go, a 9.3 might be the ticket for him. After the hunt, he'll start talking up a bigger bore on his own initiative.

Enjoy the hunt!

LD

Many folks on the AR forums have posted very positively regarding the 9.3 X 62 for cape buff and while it's a quite a bit less than a 416 Taylor if there is a question about recoil sensitivity then I'd certainly be looking to the 9.3 X 62.

You didn't say how old and how much shooting experience your son has but if he is under 16 and new to shooting get him started with a 223 and get him used to shooting and the noise.

Then work up to a 270 maybe. Don't assume that because you're able top handle it and the youngster is a strong lad that he's able to handle recoil. It's a practiced discipline and needs to be worked to.

Depending on your destination, the 9.3 may be too small in some places? I don't know.
It would definately feed well in any rifle set up for it, and is good for a Moose stopper, but I would not want to have one with me personally anywhere near Buffs.
The .416 is a tad ok, depending on how he handles recoil. You said next Sept? Then he has a whole year to learn more recoil techniques, which he can do in that amount of time. A .458 would be great, but it dewpends on your sons abilities, and that would have to be learned gradually.
At this point, without knowing all aspects of you situation, I'd recommend the .416.
Simply because I would not recommend the 9.3 in Buff country, and the .458 would have to be a greater learning process for him.
I would think he could learn the .416 very well, and use it more effectively, if he is of a young age, and not used to recoil as much as some of us brain-jarred, hearing impaired, folk on this board, including myself.
I would recommend the .416 over the .375 also.
But it depends on the shooters abilities.
A lot of variables enter into these things.
That is, I was "assuming" your son is of young age and learning?
The .416 is tops in that category.
With the right weight on the rifle, it should not phase him during the game-shot.
Although at the bench, it might bring a sarcastic smile.

I don't believe the 9.3 is legal for buff everywhere, you might also consider the .376 Steyr. I've got both and there's only .009 difference.

Both are easy to put in a normal Mauser action.

Thanks for responses. My son is in his early twenties, but is of slight build. I think that he could learn to shoot a big kicker, but I have been on too many trips where I see people who own big kickers, think that they can shoot them well, but really don't. However, I also now guys who are absolutely bombproof when it comes to recoil, but they tend to be those who shoot a lot. Since, he is in a University in a city, I have to ask myself realistically is he going to drive out to the range and shoot 400 to 500 rounds or whatever is necessary to learn to manage the recoil. And I am not so certain that shooting off the bench with a fairly big kicker doesn't create more problems than it solves. He shoots a 270 for deer and elk just fine Thank you all very much for your imput.

416 taylor... or 9,3x62 ...

the 62 will be a joy

the 416, if a pound heavier, will be very much the same,..

remember, the 416 shouldn't be loaded higher than 2300-2350..

jeffe

OK, I'd just written some more, but I had to change my thoughts somewhat.
After that bit of info----
everything has .375H@H written all over it from front to back, and even side-ways, if you can get a rifle in that chambering.
Barring that, go to the .416

I'm sorry, I had to look it up, but I think the 9.3x62 might be "exempted" from the under-.40 ban some countries have.

Walksfar, you recommend a 375 H & H, the rifle that I have used a couple of times on Cape Buffs with good results. As an aside, I have used the 300 grain Triple Shocks and they have performed great. But wouldn't a 375 preclude the use of a VZ 24?

True, however I was thinking of an entirely different rifle for the .375
I had forgotten the vz-24 equasion.
"sign of old age"

"old age", an occupational hazard we all seem to suffer from. Like the saying, "The memory is the second thing to go".

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger's Cat:
....I have to ask myself realistically is he going to drive out to the range and shoot 400 to 500 rounds or whatever is necessary to learn to manage the recoil.....

SC, it is great that you want your son to go on a DG hunt with you. That said, I think your son should show the willingness and effort to get ready for such an adventure. (After all dangerous game is DANGEROUS.) By going to the range and learning how to handle/manage, the rifle needed for buff and placing his shots properly. If possible, get him to shoot several different big bores to see where is comfort level is.

With only a year to get ready it will be tough to have a custom rifle built and for your son to learn how to manage the recoil and shooting skills for this adventure. Buying a rifle now, will afford him the increassed time and opportunity to hone his skills. As this is certainly no deer hunt you have planed for the two of you to go on. Save the VZ for another time and go ahead and get a 376 Steyr, 375H&H, or if legal where you are hunting a 9.3x62.(a joy to shoot) Bigger is better, but only up to a point. The time more anyone who is seriously wanting to shoot big bores and does so, the better their technic and the less they will be concerned about recoil.

Good hunting,

Hog Killer

I started a 416 Taylor project in the spring and the gunsmith got it to me the first of the month and we have been looking for brass for a few weeks. It takes 458 brass forget the 338 brass. With only a year I would go with something he could start shooting tomorrow.

If he is like his Dad and any other hunter on this forum,...he needs them BOTH.

All hunters need a backup rifle when traveling to Africa.

Sorry...You're the Dad...You'll have to just get it done.

quote:

Originally posted by Die Ou Jagter:
I started a 416 Taylor project in the spring and the gunsmith got it to me the first of the month and we have been looking for brass for a few weeks. It takes 458 brass forget the 338 brass. With only a year I would go with something he could start shooting tomorrow.

fireform the 338 brass, it's easier
jeffe

I'm building a 9.3 X 62 on a FN action. I think it will do great on Buff. If you have a charge the PH can take care of it.
I also have a 416 Rem with a Knoxx recoil system, It kicks like a 270win. Knox makes a stock that will fit the V24.

Dr B

I think most would agree that the 416 bore is much better for something as large and potentially dangerous as cape buffalo. Might I suggest considering going with the Taylor, doing a quarter rib, medium heavy barrel contour at 24" or more, adding a mercury recioil reducer in the but and stocking with a dense heavyish piece of wood like Bastogne and shooting for around 10# all up. I have shot a Taylor quite a bit and it really is something I think most can learn to shoot well and is easy in the VZ. Start with mild loads and shoot often. With heavy field loads on the actual hun, recoil won't be an issue at all. I know it has been done but I, personally, would want more than the 9.3x62 in that situation (that coming from extensive experience shooting a 375-06 AI at game, ballistically very similar to the 9.3). The 9.3 would make a great custom for nearly any other species you'll encounter there, however, and would require very little work. Mayby he could borrow your heavy for the buff and use the Mauser for everything else? Just some thoughts...

jeffe, jeffe...

You know I agree with ya on almost everything, but...

quote:

remember, the 416 shouldn't be loaded higher than 2300-2350..

quote:

fireform the 338 brass, it's easier

[shaking head]

OK...I'll give you the top one...2350 is probably, on the average, a safe target for most 416Ts and more than adequate regardless.

But where'd ya come up with the bottom one? FL sizing a 458 case is definitely the easiest. It also gives you better neck tension on average.

I think you've been fireforming too many of those AR cases lately.

ps: To answer the original question, I vote for the Taylor. Its legal everywhere, and you will see a noticable difference on buff. Its not really punishing recoil wise, but it will take some practice to get adjusted to from a 270!

Cheers,
Canuck

Chris,
it is more fun to fireform than cold form!!!

15gr bullseye, fill it with cornmeal.. BANG

heh.. it snows in texas!!

quote:

it is more fun to fireform than cold form!!!

15gr bullseye, fill it with cornmeal.. BANG

OK, I'll give ya that. It is more fun, but it can be a bit of a PIA too depending on how handy it is to find a place to shoot them.

Fo my 6.5 Gibbs I use 11gr of Unique, fill the case up to the base of the neck with Cream of Wheat and then stuff some TP in the neck.

Cheers,
Chris

quote:

I think most would agree that the 416 bore is much better for something as large and potentially dangerous as cape buffalo

lets frankenstein the two and do my 416x62!

https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6521043/m/867108245

it has a better shoulder than the 411 hawk or 411 whelen.

ngarret just got back from africa with his 411 whelen ai
wich is not much diff with good success...


https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/4711043/m/285106145

since he is open to the taylor wildcat i thought it was an in...

quote:

Originally posted by Rick R:
I don't believe the 9.3 is legal for buff everywhere, you might also consider the .376 Steyr. I've got both and there's only .009 difference.

Both are easy to put in a normal Mauser action.

The 9.3X62, 9.3X64, and the 9.3X74R are all legal for Buffalo in Zimbabwe, and in many other places as well! I see no reason the kid can't learn to shoot the 416 Taylor, however. As someone suggested he could start out with light loads, and then slowly work up to full loads! A good wildcat would be a 7mm Rem Mag, or 300Win Mag opened up the take the 9.3 bullet, with no other changes in the case shape! Use a North Fork cup point solid and go to it with the buff.

I took my son who is a tad older than yours, but not bigger, and who has hunted, but not a lot, to Tanz last year.

Before we went, I had him shoot my 9.3, 375HH, 416 Howell, and 425 Express. When it came time, I took a 375HH with a brake for him. After shooting the 416 and 425, he was quite good and totally unbothered by the 375.

I used the 425Express on my trip this year to Namibia as my back up to the 416. I worked up 400gr solid loads and 350gr Barnes X loads. I don't think that it has a bit more recoil than the 375 in actuality.

I found the 425 to be a very versatile rifle and would do it as a 416 Taylor if I were starting from scratch. I am about to have another rifle built and it will be 416 Taylor or 416 Remington. I'd not hestitate to get him on to the 416 Taylor, if you think you'd like to have one down the road.

I'd recommend that you move him up to a magnum class cartrdige, then to the 375 or 416 or 9.3.

Most importantly, I'd get him out to the range often and every trip have him end the session by shooting at least a box of .22LR at silhouettes.

This worked for me and my son and he shot a very nice 45"Cape Buff with the 375HH with one shot. Kudude

Don't see the point in subjecting the kid to excessive recoil*. Get him a CZ in 9.3, a good rifle, cheap as dirt, and still legal even when downloaded.

*Anyone that thinks a 416 doesn't kick must be brain dead.

quote:

OK, I'll give ya that. It is more fun, but it can be a bit of a PIA too depending on how handy it is to find a place to shoot them.

Just lean out the window of the dormitory room, and let 'er rip.

LD

PS Buy Bill's book. It is a wonderful, useful and entertaining read.

I guess I'm behind the times here but how in the hell is a man in his twenties a kid? I was no kid in my twenties and neither were my sons. Get him a 416 which is what he should use for buffalo and do what's necessary for him to learn to shoot it. We have women on this forum that shoot 375's and up for buffalo.I love the 9.3X62 but not for buffalo.Slight build (provided he's otherwise healthy) has little to do with learning to shoot big bores. The 416 just isn't that bad.

Although I have enjoyed good results with a 9.3x62, 300grn Swift A-Frame and 286grn Woodleigh solid combo on Buff, I would recommend the 416taylor or 404J with a low powered scope and reduced velocity loads, say about 2200fps MV.
ozhunter

quote:

Originally posted by Will:

*Anyone that thinks a 416 doesn't kick must be brain dead.

Guilty as charged! But, then again, a 416 taylor doesn't kick !!!

Thank you all for your advise. Actually, I think it is all sound. I am glad I asked the question as it helped me to form my opinion. I am going to go with the 9.3 for several reasons. One is that although the ammo may not be readily available here in the U.S., it is not a wildcat. Second, I follow the the axiom, that bullet placement is more important than caliber. Third, although one certainly doesn't want to approach the situation where you have to rely upon your PH for a killing shot, that backup is always there and I would anticipate that I would be there with my 375. Fourth, after some consideration, I think the 9.3 offers more options, i.e., he has been using his 270 with triple shocks with good results on elk, but I can't image a much better elk rifle here in the black and wet timber of Oregon. Thanks again, your advise was all helpful.

Seenyore Gato: Please keep us advised of developments with your VZ 24 project. I had a good smith here in Southern Oregon build me a .416 Taylor on a VZ 24 with PacNor barrel and Bell and Carlson Medalist stock that was a very nice rifle. Like an idiot and having the hots for something else, I sold it. I have been watching for another VZ 24 action with the thoughts of doing it all again, but have since concluded that I should at least try a CZ 550 in 9.3 X 62 for the sheer joy of it. And I agree, it would be very hard to beat the 9.3 for an Oregon elk in our nasty dark timber.

I won't comment on either's performance on DG..as I have no experience there. But I have owned both and either is very shootable in appropriate weight rifles. I still have my 9.3 and really like it...but the only reason I sold my 416T is because I also had a 416 Rigby, a 458 Lott, and a 470 NE so I saw little use for the Taylor (at that time.) Were I in your shoes, then I'd probably go for the 416. Either way, I hope y'all have a GREAT hunt!

quote:

Originally posted by Schrodinger's Cat:
Thank you all for your advise. Actually, I think it is all sound. I am glad I asked the question as it helped me to form my opinion. I am going to go with the 9.3 for several reasons. One is that although the ammo may not be readily available here in the U.S., it is not a wildcat. Second, I follow the the axiom, that bullet placement is more important than caliber. Third, although one certainly doesn't want to approach the situation where you have to rely upon your PH for a killing shot, that backup is always there and I would anticipate that I would be there with my 375. Fourth, after some consideration, I think the 9.3 offers more options, i.e., he has been using his 270 with triple shocks with good results on elk, but I can't image a much better elk rifle here in the black and wet timber of Oregon. Thanks again, your advise was all helpful.

I'll bet the 9.3x62 will become his favorite rifle - for everything!

Since I've had my 9.3, it has certinly become my favorite rifle.

A Mauser 9.3x62 in Africa - tradition and fun!! - a great choice.

quote:

Originally posted by Dr B:
I'm building a 9.3 X 62 on a FN action. I think it will do great on Buff. If you have a charge the PH can take care of it.
I also have a 416 Rem with a Knoxx recoil system, It kicks like a 270win. Knox makes a stock that will fit the V24.

Dr B

Not very "sporting" there, Dr B.
Relying on the PH like that. But, each to his own, I suppose.

I killed a Buff, cow elephant, giraffe, and 3 zebras in Zim in March, with my 9,3x74R double rifle. The buff, one shot facing me with a 286 gr woodleigh Soft, he was down and dead in 40 yards. The Woodleigh Softs and a 286 gr Nosler partition worked perfect on the Zebra. I used one 286 gr Woodleigh Solid on the elephant, at 5 yards, side brain, and the giraffe was downed with two solids.

Same as any rifle put those 9,3's in the right place and it will do a good job.

quote:

Originally posted by Pathfinder:
I guess I'm behind the times here but how in the hell is a man in his Twentiesa kid? I was no kid in my twenties and neither were my sons.

I must learn to read better, I never saw the "TWENTIES" referance! If that is true, the disregard my post above, and get him a 458 LOTT! I was shooting va 10 ga single barrel shotgun by age ten!