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What's the best velocity with a 400 grain bullet that this cartridge can get chambered in something strong like a ruger no. 1 short of max pressure? | ||
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Rob did a bunch of work on a 405 in a TC ... i think, and it's I THINK, he was 150-200fps faster than book ... but loaded to the gills... answer? not all that much opinions vary band of bubbas and STC hunting Club Information on Ammoguide about the416AR, 458AR, 470AR, 500AR What is an AR round? Case Drawings 416-458-470AR and 500AR. 476AR, http://www.weaponsmith.com | |||
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376 Steyer, I have loaded 400 grain Woodleigh bullets in my Miroku/Winchester 1895 .405 wcf to 2076 fps and that was plenty to take an African Cape Buffalo. That is the velocity range of 400 grain bullets from the 450/400 double. Hornady lists their 400 grain 450/400 load at 2050 fps which is considered enough for most DG. An acquaintance bought two new Miroku/Winchester 1895 rifles in .405 WCF for an African hunting trip and he has loaded 400 grain Woodleigh bullets to 2157 and is working up to 2200 fos. He plans to stop there. He is using compressed loads of VV Ni33 powder and Federal GM215M primers as I did. I have seen reports of similar velocities from a Ruger #1, but would have to dig through my records to find that. You doing a search on the Internet should be faster. Good luck with your load project. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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How's the recoil with the factory 400g loads in a Winchester 1895 Regards, Chuck "There's a saying in prize fighting, everyone's got a plan until they get hit" Michael Douglas "The Ghost And The Darkness" | |||
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IIRC Rob Gunbuilder long loaded his 405 #1 to 450/400 velocity 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Chuck375, The recoil with 2100 fps 400 grain loads is heavier than the recoil with 300 grain bullets at 2250 fps, but not too hard to handle shooting off hand - a bit stiff off the bench.  The bench rest recoil of 400 grain bullets at 2050 fps shot in my Simpson Suhl .405 DR is less than the 300 grain recoil at 2250 in my 1895.  NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Boom Stick, I have seen 400 grain 450/400 velocities stated to be 2050 fps ( Hornady factory) and as high as 2150 fps. Maybe some even higher. Can you tell me in FPS what you mean when commenting on the 400 grain 450/400 muzzle velocity? NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Since no one could or would provide the actual muzzle velocity of the often referenced 450/400, I got that data from one of my reference books, "Any Shot You Want" from A-Square.  The data on the 450/400 includes load specs on three different powders and the velocities of a couple loads for each powder. As you can see the velocity ranges from around 2050 fps to just under 2200 fps from a 26 inch barrel- the same range of my .405 DG loads from a 24 inch barrel. So, 376Steyer, If you do choose the .405 WCF, you can use it on any big nasty critter you like and expect good performance ie, dead buff, ele , hippo, lion, etc. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Why when I want more power then a cartridge is designed for. I buy a bigger one. Want a 06 to be a 300mag buy a 300 mag. Want your 45-70 to be a 458wm buy a 458wm. | |||
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Pdog,To each his own. For what it is worth, my 1886 .45-90 was easily and safely loaded to .458 Win mag performance and took ele, Cape buff, leopard , etc in southern Africa. Now it shoots an even wider range of applications from low end .45-70 to mid range .458 Win Mag. I have all the hunting rifles that I need. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Anyone tried a warm load with the 350 grain A Frame in the 405? I would think that would be a good choice for the case volume and twist. Right bullet for buffalo for sure. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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Russ, I seem to recall reading that you are bringing in some double rifles regulated with the 350 A Frame in the 405. How far off are you on that???? Is it still going to happen? | |||
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It is. We are building 25 sxs rifles, they will be known as the "Askari" model. Breaking from tradition, they will have no express sights. The rail will be dimensioned for a QD scope mount and/or a QD ghost ring. I have the 350gr Swift A frame bullets, was able to get 500 pieces for regulation (that was a small miracle in the current environment). The bullets are loaded to 2300 fps which produces just over 4000 ft.lbs at the muzzle. Hence the ctg is called the 405-4000, aka 405 Bad Boy, apologies to Savage. Swift has agreed in principle to make a matching 350 solid. This will not be a standard 405 case although it's designed to be loaded with standard 405 Win dies. It is a slightly longer case (2.875") and the head of the case is identical to the 9.3x74R so reloaders will use that shellholder (there is a practical reason for this ... brass can be easily and inexpensively made from 9.3x74R brass). One can also use 41 mag dies but then you neck size only. Eventually, we will supply custom dies but that may take some time, CH4D is backed up to the horizon. If you must have the 405 headstamp, the solution is to get 405 basic brass, cut it down to the right length, and turn and thin the rims as necessary. Viola, 405 BB headstamp to fool the customs man! As far as the rifles, they will be made in Italy and that is all ready to go. I ordered the reamers last week from PTG and we are making up the ammo for regulation now. Optionally, we can regulate the rifles for the 400 gr Woodleigh soft and solid, this load will replicate the 450-400. But in the double rifle world, you have to pick one or the other at "birth". Since this rifle is going to weigh under 4kg, the 350gr bullet is perhaps the wise choice. Most customers will want to load their own ammo for reasons of economy. We think you can load this ammo for around $2.50 per pop including the (9.3) brass. 405 basic brass adds about $2 to that. Since this is a straight wall case brass life should be good. If there is demand, we will contract with a custom ammo maker to mfg ammo but that adds $3/ctg to the price of the components. The idea is to have a true DG rifle without paying a king's ransom for it, taking out a loan to feed it, or needing to hire a gun bearer to carry it. This rifle will be priced at the same point as the various 9.3x74R rifles in the market; ie about 60% of the price of the existing 40 cal offerings. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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This sounds really interesting,I will be looking forward to it. DRSS | |||
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This is interesting Will you be able to use factory 405 win ammo in it as well as the 2.875” version? This will be quite interesting in a converted 405 #1 Ruger. 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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The 350 gr. A-Frame sounds perfect. The A-Frame bullet is excellent and very reliable. I like the Cutting Edge Bullets for buffalo. I think that the 320 grain and 370 grain C.E.B. in the .405 would be good in your Ruger 1 Russ, Your idea for the double rifle, as you describe it, is very clever. I think there is a market for it. You are an independent thinker! Good idea! IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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Russ, will it be a SXS or O/U? Apologies to the original poster for wandering off the topic. Brian IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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Russ, I bet you can sell those rifles rather quickly. Sorry that I could not wait and bought a custom made.405 DR with express sights, QD Talley peep, QD Talley scope mounts. The QD accessories all view through the V in the fixed blade of the express sight. The QD s latch to the rear rib.   My .405 DR is regulated with factory 300 grain Hornady bullets at 2250 fps, but also groups well with Woodleigh 400 grain bullets at 2050 +. These .405 rifles are definitely DG rated. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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It is a sxs (of course!) The groove is .410 so I would not recommend shooting factory 405 Win through it as these are .411 or .412. In any case the case head of the 405 has a bigger and thicker rim. We considered going with that dimension but that would create a headspace problem with the 9.3 case which is cheaper, longer, and easier to source. Hornady, Swift and Woodleigh make a .410 bullet. I think Barnes as well. CR, is that a custom ghost ring? We are going down the path of using the Recknagel item. We borrowed the rail dimensions from the 412 Valmet, as there is a good QD scope ring available from EAW for that rail (and one or two other sources). Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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Russ, It is the standard Talley peep sight. It fits the Talley compatible grooves. https://www.talleymanufacturin...m/product/peep-site/ It sounds as if you have already found the components for your project, but I thought the Talley approach might interest you. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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I am so glad you are making these. It is such a practical cartridge. It would be cool if it could still use factory ammo but as a wise person repeated… “There are no solutions, only compromises.”. IIRC, Ruger split the difference with the 450/400 and went with .4105” bullets. Can anyone confirm this? 577 BME 3"500 KILL ALL 358 GREMLIN 404-375 *we band of 45-70ers* (Founder) Single Shot Shooters Society S.S.S.S. (Founder) | |||
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Re factory ammo, I am not sure it would be safe to shoot a factory 2.5" case in a 2.875" chamber unless you loaded the bullets way out, which would be a reload anyway and then you may as well use the longer case to start with. The whole idea of the longer case is you get the powder room you need and can still crimp to the factory crimp groove, which is a good thing in a double. There is no reason why we could not make a couple in the standard factory chambering but then it would be "just another" 405 Win which is not a DG ctg in factory guise. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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Russ, WRT your statement "Re factory ammo, I am not sure it would be safe to shoot a factory 2.5" case in a 2.875" chamber unless you loaded the bullets way out" For more than 100 years, .45-90 (2.4 inch .458)shooters have been shooting .45-70 (2.1 inch .458) Factory ammo in the .45-90 rifles. I am one of them and it works well. The shooter must take care to clean the chamber occasionally and all is well. Most of my .45-90 loads are for African DG and some of those have velocities in the mid .458 Win Mag range (450 grain bullets @ 2100 fps) . With the right bullets (North Fork and Punch) they are very effective on big stuff from buff - ele. I look forward to seeing your finished rifle products. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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I would think you would get bullet shaving unless the chamber was shotgun style .. forcing cone. Certainly you are not going to get the best bullet alignment with the bore. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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" I worried about that until I measured the length of 300 grain bullet and compared it to the "gap" it had to traverse before entering the "cone"/ beginning of the barrel. I was relieved to learn that the base of the bullet was still in the cartridge case when the tip entered the bore! Never any shavings or accuracy issues. Even better with heavier longer bullets. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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That's good to know .. I suppose you could easily check that by lightly seating a bullet in a greased fired case by hand, then running it into the chamber to see whether it was pushed further into the case. The outcome would depend also on how much throat you had on your reamer. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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Thanks Russ, "Of course" (chuckle") Brian IHMSA BC Provincial Champion and Perfect 40 Score, Unlimited Category, AAA Class. | |||
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Update .. we are going to chamber and regulate the rifles one by one here in the USA, so we can accommodate pretty much any request in that regard. We can also regulate with the exact scope you plan it use, if any. Or at the exact distance you want the rifle regulated. One thing I struggled with was the rim dimension .. 9.3 rim or 405 rim. Now we can do either. We could also just chamber for a factory 405 Win if someone wants that. Russ Gould - Whitworth Arms LLC BigfiveHQ.com, Large Calibers and African Safaris Doublegunhq.com, Fine English, American and German Double Rifles and Shotguns VH2Q.com, Varmint Rifles and Gear | |||
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Dont overlook the fact that most of the English doubles ( maybe all of them )weigh 10.5 lbs. and that alone sucks up recoil..My Searcy weighed 9 lbs and I could still tell the difference off the bench, so used a standing bench to sight it.. Just off hand how does a handloaded 405 compare to a 45-90?? how does the availability of ammo and components compare? Id like to have a 86 knockoff in one or the other for elk in the dark timber of Idaho.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray, The 1886 can handle the 45-90 cartridge, but the .405 cartridge length is a bit too long for the 1886 action. The 1895 handles the .405 well. As does my 9 pound Simson Suhl .405 DR. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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CR, What is the balistic difference..Many years ago I used the 86 in 45-90 with the 350 gr. Speer or Hornady?? on both deer and elk, and it was an impressive gun, both in accuracy and killing power, something I never saw in the fabled 45-70..The 405 is starting to interest me, never owned one.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Not a 405 but close,,my 411 KDF shoots a 400gr Barnes Original @ 2125 out of a 9.5lb Enfield. Field positions it's a joy to shoot and a month ago it dropped a dandy brown bear that had hit a couple times but was heading out. It's like a downsized 458 for Iliamna sized brown bears. I tend to use more than enough gun | |||
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It sounds like a good project, Russ. The name might cause some confusion. 405-4000 sounds and looks a lot like 450-400, at least in print. I'm curious why you just didn't stick with the original case in the name and use something like 10.4x74R, 10x74R, or 10x74mmR. You know, like 6.5x57mm, 7x57mm, 8x57mm, and 9x57mm. Imagine if we called the 7x57mm the 284-2500. Anyway, nice concept. . | |||
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What is the ballistic difference? I will try to be brief and factual. 1. The .405 WCF factory loads for the 1895 Winchester are 300 grain bullets with MV of 2200 to 2250 fps. I have corresponded with shooters that loaded 300 grain bullets to 2400 to 2500 fps for the 1895 Winchester. My pressure test equipment has shown peak chamber pressure differences of 10,000 to 12,000 psi based upon the powder used which led me to use VV N133. I loaded 400 grain .411 Woodleigh bullets to 2100 fps MV and this Cape Buff;  A friend has loaded the same 400 Grain Woodies to 2157 fps and trying for 2200 in his 1895 Winchester.  2. The Miroku/Winchester 1886 .458 2.4 rifles labelled .45-90 WCF used in our bullet testing project handled 300 grain bullets up to 2800 fps and 450 grain bullets up to 2150 fps. Based upon bullet construction, we loaded 300 grain Nosler PP to 2200 fps for big cats and plains game. This worked well as you can see:  The 450 grain NF and Punch solids did well also with frontal brain shots on this ele:  None of our loads exceeded safe pressures in either rifle. Whis best for you is a personal issue. IMHO, the .405 is very handy in the 1895 rifle and has less recoil as well. Since the handloaded .411 400 grain bullets equal the performance ( indeed the same Hornady and Woodleigh bullets) of the 450/400 DR, the .405 WCF can also take any critter on the globe with the added ability to shoot 210, 300, and 400 grain bullets. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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You,ve got my attention, being a lever action fan to start with, and from my past experience with 86 in 45-90, Im seriously looking around for a 405 or another 45-90 in an 86 rifle or carbine, for bull elk in the dark timber or or cow elk in the alfalfa patch, that is more likely due to my age. Ive become a meat hunter in my late years and there is a big differnce in eating cow elk or spike bull as opposed to those old stinking bulls.. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
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Ray, Looking over this thread made me think about the meat-hunter comment. Me too. Most younger big game such as Nilgai or elk eat better than the older ones with big horns and tough muscles. They are still fun to hunt. And they are a good excuse to use our big bore rifles. NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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Russ, you may want to reconsider the issue of open sights. Many buyers of double rifles may be put off my the lack of sights on a double, myself included :-( Do you have a price point yet? | |||
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Russ, Re reading this thread, I saw Brian's question about the 350 grain bullet for buffalo. Does that include water buffalo?  I ask because I have used my 1895 .405 and a 300 grain North Fork CPS bullet to kill a big water buff with one shot through the shoulders and it was dead before it hit the ground. I have witnesses! At 2250 fps that bullet should take Cape Buff also. I am now shooting 350 grain NF SS bullets in my .45-70 DR and about ready to take it hunting - should knock most any exotic in Texas off its feet  NRA Life Benefactor Member, DRSS, DWWC, Whittington Center,Android Reloading Ballistics App at http://www.xplat.net/ | |||
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