I have never heard much of this cartridge in this forum though it is quite interesting niche cartridge where no oversize action is necessary. Do you have current ballistics? I even could not find informations at H&H website! However there has been a positive review in the 10th edition of cartridges of the world. Are there any heavy users of the 400 H&H?
CZ

CZ,

I am sure the 400 H&H is as fine as any.

However' since this is a proprietary Holland and Holland cartridge, being recently introduced, and being priced in British pounds I can only think that it is off to a slow start. It may just be the local British that would bring them to Africa, as they only have deer on the island.

But in a wider sense, I think a lot of new cartridges that we have seen during the last decade will either disappear or wane seriously over the next decade or two. We have just learned that Blazer has introduced their own magnum range. All these late introductions must compete with the collective population of existing cartridges out there in the quantum of rifles already in circulation. A rifle is never really yours ... just for a little while, and it will be inherited by your son or be sold from your estate.

And so it is true to many other cartridges as well, I think of the Dakota Magnums, the Remington Ultra Magnums and also the new Norma Magnums. The .300, .338 and .375's are new, and based on the 416 Rigby case, shortened to fit a standard length action. They will be sort of like a longer version of the WSM cartridge line.

This is what Norma has to say said about them in their catalogue:

"The latest trend in big game cartridges is short, fat, belt-less magnum cases. The new Norma Magnums will be based on the 416 Rigby, but with a longer case than most of the new American “Short Magnums”. As a consequence, the new Norma Magnums will have higher velocities and energy than the American competitors, but still fit normal length actions."

Now here we see the marketing strategy ... it is an improvement again on the Short Magnums of Ruger, Winchester and Remington. But will the Americans and the South Africans but them over what the have currently?
Competing essentially with:

the 300 Win Mag
the 338 Win Mag
the 375 H&H to name just one

Given that the Norma brass standard is superior to any USA manufacturer. Their only real competition is Lapua. RWS is also good but little in volume and not even available on our shelves. Winchester brass has deteriorated over the last couple of years.

We know what happened with the great 308 Norma Magnum, perhaps the greatest design of all 300 Magnums - it is not about technical excellence, but about factories in other countries adopting the idea in competition with their own, market forces and marketing. Then again, its a late introduction in addition. And the Swedes may just again have a superior design and brass over the opposition, but only time will tell how it will sell.

Warrior

Never have understood the fascination with "standard length actions". Most of em are so ridiculously miniscule it's hard to operate them. I always want to add a couple inches onto the bolt handle so there's something to grab.

quote:

We know what happened with the great 308 Norma Magnum, perhaps the greates design of all 300 Magnums - it is not about technical excellence, but about factories in other countries adopting the idea in competition with their own, market forces and marketing.

Absolutely and pretty much I agree with all the rest of the post.

Sadly "excellence" is no guarantee of widespread acceptance of success as Remington know with their 6mm Remington and 280 Remington!

Or the 7mm S & H which was a better Magnum than Remington's...but also the other "forgotten" 7mm Magnum Holland's own 275 H & H! Where is that now?

Although when I sopke to H & H some months ago they did have one new available for sale!

Probably the only cartridge "recently" introduced (that isn't a military round) that has created its own wide acceptance is 7mm-08 and that's about it.

The 260 Remington is still too early to call and the likes of 338 Federal is almost moribund!

Being an in-house cartridge at a company like H&H means it doeen't perform the same function as a new caliber in a mass-market company.

For Remington, Winchester and even Blaser its a means to increase total output. At H&H it is simply a matter of consistency (ego perhaps) in having a proprietay line of cartridges across their full spectrum of rifles. I doubt if they care much about who builds one outside of H&H.

I built one a while back and like it very much, although it can't claim any particularly great advantage over similar cases. It does in a bolt gun what the 450-400 does in a double and that is saying enough in itself.

With the HH name, there will likely be an audience. I don't know that it will be very wide.

to get a slight dig in, there are currently more companies offering the 416 ruger than the 400 hh

It's blood may be blue, but it has no pulse.

I would be more interested in Boom Stick's proposed 404-375 H%H

The brass wouldnt be any harder to find-


SSR

The 404-375 would be easy.
Just need to order the reamers and dies.

Boom Stick

Thanks I am in the middle of another project but your idea still seems interesting.

Just dont like loesing track of good plans

SSR

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
It's blood may be blue, but it has no pulse.

Yes, either stillborn, or smothered with a pillow, out of shame for such a deformed baby, when H&H heard about boom stick's 404/.375 H&H.

That 400 BSA was cute too, about 100 years ago?

I am incubating a .395 H&H, with enough outbreeding to make it a red-blooded bastard child.
The barrel of the rifle has been turned to ultralight contour, reamer should be along any day, from Dave Manson.

quote:

Originally posted by Warrior:
... - it is not about technical excellence, but about factories in other countries adopting the idea in competition with their own, market forces and marketing. ...

This is everything.

The .375 H&H only made its climb to “classic” status when it was chambered in 1935 for the mod 70, and Winchester started commercially loading rounds…

Before then it was just another also-ran proprietary cartridge. It shared shelf space with the .350 Rigby behind the real popular calibers of the time like the .318WR and 9.3x62.

In fact I don’t think it really took off until after WW2 – when its competitors died a slow death through lack of ammo.

The .375 ran to the top of classic African greatness for many of the same reasons the .458 win-mag was “popular” – Winchester has mass produced rifles in the caliber and there was plenty of loaded ammo, and with the death of kynoch, it was the only game in town!

For .375 & .416 Ruger fans, the good news is that the rounds are being chambered by other makers, giving them a big boost towards longevity, a very good sign for them in the niche big bore market.


.

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
It's blood may be blue, but it has no pulse.

Yes, either stillborn, or smothered with a pillow, out of shame for such a deformed baby, when H&H heard about boom stick's 404/.375 H&H.

That 400 BSA was cute too, about 100 years ago?

I am incubating a .395 H&H, with enough outbreeding to make it a red-blooded bastard child.
The barrel of the rifle has been turned to ultralight contour, reamer should be along any day, from Dave Manson.

Boom Stick,

Go ahead and copywrite 404 H&H they are just messin with us and not usin it.


SSR

Well I can't call it a HH so 404-375 will have to do.
I hope people make them.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
With the HH name, there will likely be an audience. I don't know that it will be very wide.

to get a slight dig in, there are currently more companies offering the 416 ruger than the 400 hh

For the same reason there are more Chevys than Bentleys

quote:

new Norma Magnums

It is interesting to note that Norma has not followed the trend of Win, Rem, or Ruger to offer their magnum with sharp 35 and 30 degree shoulder angles, but a more sleek 20% for more reliable feeding. Here is their .338 Norma Mag offering:

http://www.longrangehunting.co...ms-37775/#post254318

Warrior

Is because the designer/ballistician (Jimmie Sloan) knew what he wanted ... to push a 300 gr highly aerodynamic bullet at high velocities with less recoil than the 338 Lapua.

Heavier bullet and better BC yields better trajectory at range with less recoil for more rapid followup shots.

You should see the groups in his design proof book ... they are amazing!

H&H showed both at SCI this year. Bolt guns and dummy ammunition in marked boxes. I am trying to convince them to sell me some brass. As was mentioned, there is a reamer in the hands of a poster here.

Rich

In the preliminary stages of converting a .375H&H to .400 H&H. Holland & Holland claims they use a 1/12 twist.... these guys have brass.
http://www.qual-cart.com/

It is interesting to note the following from Norma's new Norma Magnums:

a) The use of a big case (416 Rigby) but shortened to fit a standard length action.

b) They opted for 20 degree shoulders for ultimate reliable feeding.

c) They make quality brass and do not depned on others to make brass for them.

d) They avoid the cost of expensive magnum length actions - wise move.

e) They are not offering the real big bore cartridges - they stopped at .375.

f) They pitched the money makers to move greater volume - .300, .338 and .375's.

We will watch the European war between the 2 new continetal new magnums of Norma vs Blazer.

Interestingly enough, Blazer has also just offered limited magnums - only 4 cartridges:

7 mm Magnum with Nosler-Accu-Bond-bullets
.300 Magnum with Nosler-Accu-Bond or CDP-bullets
.338 Magnum with Nosler-Accu-Bond or Barnes-bullets
.375 Magnum with Barnes-bullets
(Norma makes the brass for Blazer in open competition)

So both war parties compete for the same battelfied.
Time to place bets.

Warrior

Just to make the betting a bit more fair, here we go:

* The Blazer line of proprietary cartridges are not available in the US
* The Blazer rifle is a very expensive factory rifle and only Blazer makes Blazers.
* The Blazer rifle has a pretty wooden bolt knob in contrast with tradition.

Wow, this is just what the hunting world needs!

Warrior

And here comes da punch line:-

"Here are the real world velocities: Temp 13°C, Chrony Gamma

7mm Blaser 140grs AC: 885m/s 2900fps

300 Blaser 180grs TTSX: 876m/s 2870fps

338 Blaser 200grs AC: 895m/s 2935fps

375 Blaser 270grs TSX: 810m/s 2660fps

No worse, but no better than the other magnums." .... Marseille

Where is the niche or the room for yet another magnum line in an already over crowded space occupied by the Remington Ultra-Mags, Lazzeronis, Dakotas.

BUT .... a 300 Win mag & a 300 H&H, albeit belted cases, can do exactly the velocities as the 300 Blazer.

And another interesting view by IndyCA35:-

"More junk designer cartridges cluttering up the shelves and complicating ammunition availability. I hope they go broke on this venture.

Of all the 30 or 40 junk rifle cartridges introduced in the last 20 years or so, the only ones I can think of that have any useful purpose are the .300 WSM, .375 Ruger, and maybe the .270 WSM. The others just duplicate what's been available for years. Or decades.

Norma/Blaser will doubtless pay for a safari for Craig Boddington or someone to go to South Africa and shoot something. Then he will write an article in "Guns and Ammo" saying, "Ooh. Gush. Gurgle. How neat. It killed the antelope."

And a bunch of dummies will rush out and buy the stuff. Norma/Blaser will sell the ammo for twice or three times what .300 Winchester ammo costs because there will only be one source for it...if you can even find it."

Warrior

"I did a little comparing of dimensions and potential....

.300 WM .300 WSM .300 Norma Mag

91.5 gr 81.3 gr 103.0 gr Case Capacity (gr of powder)

.489 .538 .563 Case Diameter (in.)

2.62 2.10 2.492 Case Length (in.)

50 70 41 Neck Angle (degrees)

3040 3046 3122 MV of SIE 168 gr BTHP @ MAP-15% pressure (fps)


76 gr 71.5 gr 84.5 gr RE-22 load to achieve the MV above

Sorry, the numbers collapse when I preview, so hopefully you can figure them out." ... ten