I've read that this cartridge is based on the .30-06 and also that it is based on the 9.3 x 62. Does anyone here know which of these answers is correct?

Z-Hat suggests using cylinder .30-06 brass, so I'd guess the round was developed on the .30-06 case.

George

I take it you can get to the .411 Hawk from either path, but I was wondering what the developer originally did.

Is z-hat in some way affiliated with Hawk? One of his float-overs describes the .411 as "the .30-06 on steroids".

quote:

I've read that this cartridge is based on the .30-06 and also that it is based on the 9.3 x 62.

Bob Fulton (Hawk Bullets) originally designed the first 375 Hawk. Then in 1991 Fulton took it to Dave Scovill at Wolfe Publishing. They then converted it to the 375 Hawk/ Scovill and switched to 06 brass. The rest of the line was then develped from the Hawk/Scovill design using 06 brass.

""In 1993 Dave Scovill published an article in Handloader #166 titled, ".375 Hawk/Scovill." Included was an extensive load table*. Dave chose to convert the Hawk dimensions from those used on the 9.3x62 to the more common 30-06 base dimensions. Bob Fulton was a little old school, so the problems of using 30-06 brass in a 9.3 chamber did not matter to him. The difference in dimensions serves an important purpose Bob explains, "The 9.3x62 follows the standard British practice of slightly looser chambering for use in Africa and other hot climates. That improves reliability of extraction, the extra room in the chamber is there to take advantage of the way that brass stretches and contracts." Dave noted that this left a slight bulge on the case at the web, he cited concerns about stretching and possible head separations as the reason for using the smaller 06 case dimensions for his version of the 375 Hawk. Ballistically the two versions are identical although ammunition cannot be interchanged"""

If you want a 411 hawk either buy headstamp brass or cylinder 06. Howell basic brass from AHR is another option and much cheaper.

I built my own a 400PDK using a design I had made for a 280 wildcat. Switched to cylinder brass and left it 2.65". Do a search on 400PDK I can move a 400 and 2300+ and a 330gr at 26-2700fps.

or buy correct headstamp brass:

http://www.z-hat.com/Hawk%20Brass.htm

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewP...productNumber=716473



More info on Forming:

http://www.z-hat.com/Hawk%20Forming.htm

Well, that answers that! Thanks.

This cartridge sounds like it would be ideal for dangerous game in Africa (for the guest hunter, not as a "stopper") -- virtually duplicating the .450/400 and with a little better penetration than the .404 Jeffery, but with far less recoil.

In a 10 pound rifle the figures are 36 foot-pounds and 15 fps recoil velocity.

The .416 Remington is at 52.9 and 18.5 and the Rigby is 58.1 and 19.3.

The Jeffery, in a 10.25 pound rifle comes in at 41.0 and 16.1 but the Hawk in the same weight rifle is at 35.0 and 15.0.

Thanks Ramrod. My temperament is to want to use just-enough-gun, and a 400 grainer at 2150 has proven over and over it will get the job done. I am especially excited about the relatively low recoil of the .411 Hawk.

If you were having one of these built,

1) what weight rifle would you want considering scope, mount, and rings will be added to that weight? (Again, I am not a big fan of light rifles.)

2) What action would you use, CZ, Ruger 77, Winchester Model 70?

Take a look at the 10.75x68. Same ballistics with modern powder and bullets.

Ozark--he would be better off getting the hawk. The 10.75x68 is a pain on brass, and dies--the hawk is alot eaiser to manager stuff for.

10.75x68 been their done that... hawk is the way to go!

If I were you I'd get Wayne at AHR to do me a 411 hawk just like this 380 howell he has for sale. Very classic, and affordable. Wayne did me a 505 gibbs and his work is very nice! He is reasonable on his lead time, and as I said earlier his prices are affordable.

Here is what it would look like if it were me.

http://www.hunting-rifles.com/...Game/plains_game.htm

Lots of gun for $4000- $4500 bucks!

Ed

How is the .411 Hawk any different than the .400 Whelen?

The best endorsment for the CZ550 is the fact that AHR is crazy about them.
A stock CZ550 is a fine rifle, I have 2 of them, but I've used one from AHR and it was just a fit and function art form.
Well worth the money. You will have relatives fighting over it if you dont have it in your will.

Cheers, John

Huvius, I started out with wanting a .400 Whelen, but switched to the Hawk after some reading. My understanding is that the Whelen comes in several different versions which makes the whole ".400 Whelen" a somewhat confusing issue. With the Hawk, you have a standardized cartridge which also holds a bit more powder -- and you can get factory brass for it.

Wayne at AHR has a 411 or 400 Howell reamer. Last I talked to him he didn't have dies.

When you look at the 411Hawk data keep in mind he used light bullets and 26-27" barrels. Draw out the 411Hawk and the true 400Whelen both are basically straight cases. The slight difference in shoulder location and or angle won't mean much if anything. I seriously doubt a 400gr bullet in the hawk at 2150 from a normal (24") hunting length barrel.

As far as I know Z-hat is the only one with a 411 hawk reamer. Good luck getting anything done by him.

I built a 416 version of my PDK using 2.5" brass. The 2.65" allows me to seat the bullet in the cannelure and still have a OAL that would fit in the magazine of an 06. MY 400PDK gives me a 2250 with a 400 over 2300 if I push it. The 416 was closer to 2150.

If you look at the following picture. The whelen, Hawk, PDK and Express is shown. The base of the 400gr is a 400gr Hornday seated in the cannelure with 2.65" brass. If you use the cannelure on the hawk, or Whelen you eat major capacity. The Howell would be basially my PDK with a 25 deg vs 40deg. The express is the hawk using the longer untrimed cylinder brass. Z-hat has that reamer as well.
If you want 2150 use a longer case and load down.

Interesting drawing! But what are the vertical lines on the right?

quote:

Interesting drawing! But what are the vertical lines on the right?

They are the case mouth. The hawk while built on 06 brass is cut to the 9.2x62 length of 2.441" the red line is the Whelen at 2.494 the dashed line is actually the mouth of the 400Newton that should have been removed (old drawing) the far right is the 2.65" of the cylinder brass used by the PDK, Express and the Howell basic. Actual Howells are 2.6" I believe.

If you go with something like the Hawk I would consider either cutting the throat long and taking advantage of the cannelure and maximize the net capacity or the very least cut a second cannelure and seat the bullet out. My bullets would tend to move without a crimp. A longer throat also helps with velocity.

So the Whelen has a shoulder further back with a longer case length and the Hawk has a shoulder further forward but a shorter case length. Seems like we would be splitting hairs performance wise.
With the bullet seated to the same oal, I guess the Hawk may be a smidge more case capacity but with lighter/shorter bullets that advantage would be lost. My guess is that with a long bullet, the base would be more likely to protrude into the case on the Hawk version whereas on the Whelen, the bullet has a greater chance of being only in the neck of the case.
Not surprising since the Whelen was developed in a time when long necks were in vogue for shooting cast bullets.

quote:

Seems like we would be splitting hairs performance wise.

To me the 400Hawk was simply built closely to what the true 400Whelen was. The 400 Whelen was always an improved case not simply a 375Whelen necked up.

Like I said for me with either of the shorter cases I would look to seating the bullet long and setting my chamber up for that OAL Otherwise that big bullets eats a lot of case capacity.

Those bullet bases are in my 2.65" case. No reason you can't seat them that long in the shorter case. You simply don't have the cannelure to crip into.

At the same OAL my net capacity is about 7.25% larger however in the cannelure my net is 20% larger. An 06 mag should handle a 3.34" OAL why not build to use it.

quote:

Originally posted by Huvius:
So the Whelen has a shoulder further back with a longer case length and the Hawk has a shoulder further forward but a shorter case length. Seems like we would be splitting hairs performance wise.
With the bullet seated to the same oal, I guess the Hawk may be a smidge more case capacity but with lighter/shorter bullets that advantage would be lost. My guess is that with a long bullet, the base would be more likely to protrude into the case on the Hawk version whereas on the Whelen, the bullet has a greater chance of being only in the neck of the case.
Not surprising since the Whelen was developed in a time when long necks were in vogue for shooting cast bullets.

Bingo!!!

With the 411 Hawk you can use Whelen brass to form the cases.

The 411 Hawk is a proven cartridge with many guns built and a lot of load data available in barrel lengths of 25" - 27". It is fun to shoot.
http://z-hat.com/411%20Hawk.htm

quote:

barrel lengths of 25" - 27". It is fun to shoot

I agree this size case in 411 is fun to shoot. Why would you want to carry a 27" 411 caliber?

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

barrel lengths of 25" - 27". It is fun to shoot

I agree this size case in 411 is fun to shoot. Why would you want to carry a 27" 411 caliber?

The data listed for the 27" barrel was Bob's gun. I think he drove it back and forth to the range. NO WHERE did the article say it was a carry gun. Why are you obsessed with the data for the 27" barrel. NO WHERE does the article state you need to build a 411 Hawk with a 27" barrel. Data for both a 25 and 26 inch barrel is also listed. Because the gain per inch is small chose whatever barrel length floats your boat. A number 4 barrel around 22"- 23 inches would be great. The small vel lost would be minimal.

I would suggest to the op to start with the 411 Hawk based on the number fo guns built and the load data available.

quote:

Why are you obsessed with the data for the 27" barrel.

So asking a simple question is an obsession? The reason I point out that the data on Z-hat is a 26-27" barrel is to insure the reader is aware of it. While I have not cut the barrel of my 411 version off I did on my 416 version. With 350-400gr bullets going from 27" to 22 inch was a loss of 125-150fps.

My feeling is they used the long barrel and more or less cooked their books. Wow I can match the H&H velocity(yep 3" longer barrel apple/orange) but using a NORMAL carry length hunting barrel and all of a sudden you are down around 2400 not 2550fps. Using the long barrels and then touting it as a lever action conversion doesn't make much sense to me.

I have nothing against the 411 Hawk. I simple think he was selling a product and posted positive results to make it look good. His case capacity wise is pretty the same as a proper 400whelen. Loaded to the same OAL same pressure etc it will do nothing more than a correct 400 Whelen. He reinvented the wheel.

As far as I know he is the only one with Hawk reamers. Last I heard it is near impossible to get work done by him. I was simply trying to let people know there are other options.

Just for information the 411 Express shown on my drawing. It happens to be Z-hats as well. It is the 411 Hawk made to take advantage of the 2.65" cylinder brass he sells. Having built my own versions (one 06 length one 2.65") I simply feel the longer versions make more sense in a bolt action.

If you are looking for a normal length hunting rifle to match 450/400 400gr results it is easy to do with a longer case. You are going to have to be lucky and push it to get there in the shorter cases.

If you are looking for a lever action or bolt action giving improvement to the 405 or simply something to toss a 400gr bullet through water jugs then the 400 Whelen or Hawk will fit the bill. The Whelen I prefer over the Hawk.

I'm not trying to sell any of them. Just trying to help people see them on a level playing field. I have no tie to any of them and I don't build, or chamber for anything but myself anymore.

Good reply Paul, I, for one, appreciate all the information you've been putting into this thread.

Yep. Good info here.

Ramrod
If one were to chamber a standard .400 Whelen except reamed to use the longer 2.65" brass and seat the bullets out to the cannelure would there be any appreciable advantage?
With that configuration it seems you would be able to use standard headstamped 400 Whelen brass or the longer formed cylinder brass.
Any thoughts?
With you being in Parker I should look you up sometime I'm just down the road 50 minutes.

quote:

If one were to chamber a standard .400 Whelen except reamed to use the longer 2.65" brass and seat the bullets out to the cannelure would there be any appreciable advantage

Just looking at QL using the 400gr Hornady DGX the cannelure is .69" from the front tip of the bullet. That means in a Whelen using the cannelure you are at 3.15" Using 2.65" brass you are ate 3.34". QL calls the increase in net as around 12.25% and 100fps.

In theory you could use either brass kind of like a 458Wmag in a lott. Issue would be getting your neck and throat reamer to match your whelen neck.

Since I'm 12 miles east of Parker might even be less than 50 miles.

It would seem the best thing for the 400's on the 06 is to headspace on the extractor like the 500 B&M. I was thinking a cool idea would be to do a 400 version of the 425 OKH that is a no shoulder design. Some of the best parts of no shoulder is no fuss with forming shoulder and headspace insecurity and no feeding issues due to the same taper as the 06. Just neck up the 06 and load to whatever length.

quote:

It would seem the best thing for the 400's on the 06 is to headspace on the extractor like the 500 B&M.

So the only thing holding the case is the extractor?

Yes that and being in the chamber using a crf action. Michael has had good results using this method on several of his carts.

Some would argue that is all I have anyway.

Would be an interesting project doing a rebore and a 400 neck/throat reamer or doing a 423 version on a 9,3x62 rebore.

quote:

Would be an interesting project doing a rebore and a 400 neck/throat reamer or doing a 423 version on a 9,3x62 rebore.

I'll leave that one up to you.

Is your gun a crf? If so have you tried necking up an 06 and fireforming without jamming in the lands?

quote:

Is your gun a crf? If so have you tried necking up an 06 and fireforming without jamming in the lands

Yep MKX. I never tried it on the 400. I did try forming that way for my 340 using COW and head spacing on the extractor. Since I was moving the shoulder forward I felt I got significant thinning in front of the head and stopped.

When I formed my first 400PDK case I took a 340PDK case(280 rem parent) loaded it with COW and fired them several times in my chamber. Then stuck a 411 bullet in them and fired them again. That was at the big bore shoot in Houston when you saw my case. They were short and I simply had Hornady build the dies to handle a 2.65" case.

Can you headspace on the rim, as long as you trim cases to exact length and trim again after every firing? Do you have to crimp in such a heavy recoil cartridge?

Case mouth headspace is one option but I would rather extractor headspace and be able to crimp if desired.

quote:

Can you headspace on the rim, as long as you trim cases to exact length and trim again after every firing? Do you have to crimp in such a heavy recoil cartridge?

You need to trim to exact length (or at least equal)if you are going to crimp.

A 400 PDK or Whelen is NOT a heavy recoil cartridge. Jeffe and HogKiller found it boring. Several that have shot it in Houston at the big bore shoots found it surprisingly light.

A 300gr bullet never moves in mine with or without a crimp. Without a crimp I have had the bottom of 4 (400 gr)bullet move on me. My 400 is pretty much a straight wall case. My Hornady dies are a 3 piece set. I found a slight bell makes it easier to start the bullet and then a light crimp to both return the mouth but hold the bullet.

I didn't do any real testing to see if it helped with accuracy or ignition.

My 400PDK or a proper Whelen have a shoulder of .458-.46 the neck is .434 that leaves .024-.026". The normal difference in belt dia on a belted mad is .021". Michael Petrov who posts on AR wrote and excellent article on the 400 Whelen. http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm

I've tired using only the extractor to headspace on a forming rounds. It worked. Don't see why it wouldn't on a loaded round. Heck might to time for a 423 PDK. Nope 404PDK sound better.

OK had . Help me see what a 423 400gr would gain you over a 411 400gr. Other than a conversation at the campfire.

The 423 OKH is a no shoulder to 423 on the 06 case but I thought a 2.65" version would be cool but if you load the bullet out another .15" you have the same thing. A 416 or 400 would be new. Maybe a 416 would have the cool factor with 400@ 2,300 fps out of a 2.65" or 2.54" case but we know the 400 and 423 bullets are better suited for sub 2,300 fps impact velocities. A while ago I posted about a .435" or 425 WR bullets on the 06 now that would be different for sure. That's the beauty of the 06 big bores is boring low recoil or make a 7 lb rig.

quote:

Originally posted by ramrod340:

quote:

Can you headspace on the rim, as long as you trim cases to exact length and trim again after every firing? Do you have to crimp in such a heavy recoil cartridge?

YOu need to trim to exact length (or at least equal)if you are going to crimp.

A 400 PDK or Whelen is NOT a heavy recoil cartridge. Jeffe and HogKiller found it boring. Several that have shot it in Houston at the big bore shoots found it surprisingly light.

A 300gr bullet never moves in mine with oru without a crimp. Without a crimp I have had the bottom of 4 bullet move on me. My 400 is pretty much a straight wall case. My Hornady dies are a 3 piece set. I found a slight bell makes it easier to start the bullet and then a light crimp to both return the mouth but hold the bullet.

I didn't do any real testing to see if it helped with accuracy or ignition.

My 400PDK or a proper Whelen have a shoulder of .458-.46 the neck is .434 that leaves .024-.026". The normal difference in belt dia on a belted mad is .021". Michael Petrov who posts on AR wrote and excellent article on the 400 Whelen. http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm

I've tired using only the extractor to headspace on a forming round. It worked. Do see why it wouldn't on a loaded round. Heck might to time for a 423 PDK. Nope 404PDK sound better.

OK had . Help me see what a 423 400gr would gain you over a 411 400gr. Other than a conversation at the campfire.

My thots exactly. Something of an exercise in futility. !