Well, wife had our first baby (boy) a touch under 48 hours ago and I think I've maybe slept 3 of them. Figured now's as good a time as any to debate buffalo bullets for a (hopefully) eventual cape buff hunt.
Rifles are a 470 double and 375 H&H bolt.
I understand doubles decisions are based on what will regulate. I've found good regulating loads for woodleigh softs and barnes TSX so far for that. Wanting to try some NF's and CEB's, also.
My 375 (a CZ worked over by AHR) has shot everything I've fed it quite well. Partitions, AB's, TSX's so far. Looking to try Woodleigh's, NF's, and CEB's.

So my big question for the initiated is, what's the consensus on cape buffalo loads? Softs only? Soft followed by solids? I understand it will be very PH dependent, but humor me tonight...

Hey, congratulations! That's excellent news!

I've got no right to talk about Cape buffalo. Never hunted them.

But I have shot around a hundred or more water buffalo, and I use Woodleigh softs, solids and Hydros. Out of the .375H&H, I prefer the heavy duty RNSN. If I can ever get onto a Cape buffalo hunt, I'll bring Woodleigh bullets. They're Australian-made, so I feel a bit patriotic about them.

quote:

Originally posted by FFemtRN5287:
Well, wife had our first baby (boy) a touch under 48 hours ago and I think I've maybe slept 3 of them. Figured now's as good a time as any to debate buffalo bullets for a (hopefully) eventual cape buff hunt.
Rifles are a 470 double and 375 H&H bolt.
I understand doubles decisions are based on what will regulate. I've found good regulating loads for woodleigh softs and barnes TSX so far for that. Wanting to try some NF's and CEB's, also.
My 375 (a CZ worked over by AHR) has shot everything I've fed it quite well. Partitions, AB's, TSX's so far. Looking to try Woodleigh's, NF's, and CEB's.

So my big question for the initiated is, what's the consensus on cape buffalo loads? Softs only? Soft followed by solids? I understand it will be very PH dependent, but humor me tonight...

How strange, just had my first baby boy, born on Tuesday. I think I've done a little better on sleep though. Congratulations!

Congratulations on being a new Daddy!!!

Feedback from lots of customers says NF softs and TSX's are preferred.

For the .470 I have had great luck on buffalo with the Northfork 500 grain Cup point solid. 3/3 shots with that.

The .375 I have used 300 grain Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, which worked fine, but not as much penetration as I liked, probably due to using the Federal High Energy load back when I was using factory ammo. I also have tried 300 grain Swift A frame, a 300 grain Trophy Bonded Sledgehammer Solid, but mostly have been the 300 grain TSX. I have mostly used the .375 for Plains Game, but have taken 6 Buffalo with the .375.

For the .375, I prefer the TSX.

Woodleigh RNS & FMJ's for the 470NE and
Woodleighs new "Heavy duty" round nose softs and the FMJ's for the 375

My experience is more water buffalo than capes, but there's 135 total of them. Haven't found anything better than A-Frames yet. Don't reckon I ever will, though many come close and often enough you'd have a hard time telling the difference.

From what Ive seen of solids on buffalo, I could cheerfully leave them home. I've never been impressed by them, and the last several times that I used them were just to prove the point.

Brandon,

From reading your post I can tell you understand premium bullets. Use whatever shoots well in your rifles. Personally if I went on another dedicate buffalo hunt I'd have a magazine full of TSX's and not worry about the solids. Swifts, North Forks and Trophy bonded have also worked well for me. You can hardly pick a bad one these days.

Mark

Would you want the second or third round depending on DR or Bolt action to be a solid for penetration in a charge?

On buffalo?

No need for a charge, the CNS is close enough that a good soft will make it through.

The only limited role I could see is that a solid will get through to the chest in a wounded Texas heart shot situation.

My first PH wanted soft up first then solids. Since then, it's all softs on buffalo.

Personally, I think the NF CPS's are really more a soft than a solid by performance, but are in between the two.

Elephant (and rhino) are the only thing that NEEDS a solid. I am comfortable with no solids at all on buffalo.

As an aside, I have heard more than a few PH's who really don't like the Nosler partition on thick skinned stuff - buffalo and pachyderms. Too soft is the rap.

As far as the 375 I've been told by the PH "You shoot softs, I shoot solids" and also "Load 2 solids down and 2 softs on top." Your PH will have his own opinion so follow whatever his advice is.
As far as bullets go pretty much whatever premium your rifle likes that will regulate with your solids if you use them. I would be inclined to just take TSX's and not worry about it.YMMV

I'll chime in with my vast experience of one buffalo hunt (but not my last!). I used my 375 H & H with 300 TSX bullets, as recommended by my PH. He also said solids were not necessary with the TSX. Shot my buffalo at 80 yards broadside through the heart and he ran 50 yards before tipping over dead. We recovered the bullet lodged against the far side skin, perfectly expanded and near 100% weight retention. Based on that limited experience, I am a fan.

Thank you all for both the congratulations and your thoughts on buffalo projectiles.

I'm going to order up some of the CEB safari raptors, 300gr tsx, 300gr NF SS and CPS, as well as some of the woodleigh hydro solids and 300gr PP's for the 375. I'll probably also try the NF's and CEB's in the 470 as well.

Is there any time frame for the Swift breakaways hitting the market? Just read about those in Handloader mag, seemed quite interesting on the same lines as the woodleigh hydros.

quote:

Originally posted by crbutler:

As an aside, I have heard more than a few PH's who really don't like the Nosler partition on thick skinned stuff - buffalo and pachyderms. Too soft is the rap.

I've read the same of the partitions on heavy skinned game. I haven't shot the 300gr's, but used the 260gr's on deer this past fall.

If you're going to use CEBs, be advised that bush eats them. If you hit a stick you have a seven piece bullet. Fair warning.

Here s a discussion and preferences

http://forums.accuratereloadin...043/m/6981039391/p/1

Here s a non scientific summary!


posted 29 January 2014 07:30 Hide Post
So during the Pres speech, here is a rough calculation summary of caliber and round totals as reported. Clearly not scientific and no p values. Also likely wounded and needed many shots, wounded and got away, Ph shooting, and large bores, and denominator are not known. Not accurate but probably will create some discussion. Note solids are mostly but not always follow up:
.375 H&H Tsx 59, barnes solid 3, Woodleigh soft 3, Dgx 6, Dgs, Woodleigh solid 3, Tbbc 10, Swift A frame 31, Gsc 2, NF soft 5, NF CPS 5, CEB nc 3,
.375 Wby Nfsoft, Saf, and Ruger Dgs , too few
.400 CEB nc too few
.404 Tsx 5, wood soft 1, Dgx 2, wood solid 1 follow up
.375/404 Saaed used Tsx, Walterhog,
.416 Rem Tsx 6, Barnes solid 3, wood soft 15, Tbbc 20, Saf 19
.416 Ruger or Wby few
.416 Rigby Tsx 13, Barnes solid 2, Hydro 1, Dgs 2, Tbbc 4, Saf 1, CEB nc 1
.423 Saf
.450 barnes solid 1, wood soft 2, Dgx 5, Saf 2, CEB nc
.505 few, Tsx, wood soft or solid
.500 Tsx 2 few,
.577 few CEB nc and solid
.600 wood soft
.9.3 Tsx 5, Barnes solid 1, hydro 1, Wood solid 1, Saf 1, GS 1, NF solid 1
Mentioned but few and not legal in most places were 30-06, 300, 338
Also a number of combos like .375 and .470. Worst was some 18 rounds with .458 and .460 Wby

.470 Barnes solid 2, wood soft 6, wood solid 6, Dgs 2, Tbbc 4, Saf 1, NF CPS 3, CEB nc 3,
.458 Tsx 3, barnes solid 5, wood soft 3, Dgx 4, Dgs 2, wood solid 2, Tbbc 12, Saf 10, Nfsoft 1, NF CPS 4, CEB nc 1,

.475 few,

I v used TSX in 375, TSX, Woodleigh PP, and solid in Gibbs 505 and for this year TSX and CEB non con in right barrel and solid in left in .577 double.

Swift A-Frame followed by solids. This combination has worked very well. Taking my son on his first safari next year and he is going to use Swift A-Frames and Woodleigh Hydrostatic Solids in 375 H&H.

My one Cape Buffalo was taken with a 577 2 3/4" black powder express double loaded with nitro for black loads and a 525 grain, hard cast, flat nose bullet. First shot was at 20 yards face on, the bullet cut a large trough out of the heart and was recovered in the paunch. The recovered bullet weighed 517.7 grains. The buffalo was down in 30 yards. The PH had me put two more in the shoulder. Those two weren't recovered.

I was going to take my 416 Rigby and Nosler Safari ammo both solids and partitions but the 577 kept saying "take me, take me". What can you do when something that beautiful wants to go but say "yes".

Premium bullets are great but, correct placement is paramount no matter what bullet you use.

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
If you're going to use CEBs, be advised that bush eats them. If you hit a stick you have a seven piece bullet. Fair warning.

Yep - that'd be in reference to the untipped CEB Raptors.

I generally try to avoid 'brush', but to be fair, the question arises--

what do tipped-raptors do, and what do tipped monolithic or lead-core bullets do when encountering the same brush?

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
If you're going to use CEBs, be advised that bush eats them. If you hit a stick you have a seven piece bullet. Fair warning.

So I will admit I did not read all almost 300 pages of the terminal performance thread. Was this discussed in there? Haven't heard of this problem, but then again I haven't really looked too hard at this bullet in the past.

Volumes have been written on the subject and for what reason I have no clue..

Most of todays bullets work great but for the sake of good campfire talk, I like Woodleighs in the .470 They have worked for me forever. I carry a soft in one barrel and a solid in the other, shoot them broadside with the soft and in the butt as they turn to run with the solid..then load up with two solids and go find him..

In the .375 my favorite buffalo bullet is the 350 gr. Woodleigh PP in a soft, and the NF cup points.. The GS Customs monoliths, North Fork softs and cup points, Swift A Frames and Barnes X bullets are all good bullets...

I prefer a solid for frontal and going away shots with the .375 and 9.3's, as these lighter calibers tend to let a soft slide in between the leg and the rib cage and wound a Buffalo.. I lean towards flat nose solids if your gun will feed them 110%..if not then use the Woodleigh solid on frontal shots. I have had great luck with the GS Customs flat nose solid, and for that matter, the old RN Woodleighs.

For DG hunting in Africa have a supply of both softs and solids. I see no reason to go with one or the other, that's always been a silly argument IMO. If, for some unknown reason, I had to choose between the two, I'd opt for solids, but that isn't going to happen, I will most likely have both in my belt and use them as the situations predicts.

based on one buffalo in Zim with a 450 Dakota, Swift soft followed by two of the old Barnes banded solids chrono'ed at 2470fps. First solid from 25 or so yards, the second one from about that many feet when he tried to get up.

IMHO, the first soft does the most tissue destruction, then the solids, if needed, break bones and stop any evil intent...

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:
I generally try to avoid 'brush', but to be fair, the question arises--

what do tipped-raptors do, and what do tipped monolithic or lead-core bullets do when encountering the same brush?

I can't say how the tipped Raptors do, since they didn't fit in my magazine it wasn't a considerstion. I suppose I could load them in .458 Win Mag brass and shoot them in my Lott, but I've lost interest. Where I can see an advantage to the tips is when ranges get longer than powder burn distance. Safari raptors have the BC of a bag of leaves and performance does down with velocity loss.

quote:

Originally posted by FFemtRN5287:

quote:

Originally posted by Dogleg:
If you're going to use CEBs, be advised that bush eats them. If you hit a stick you have a seven piece bullet. Fair warning.

So I will admit I did not read all almost 300 pages of the terminal performance thread. Was this discussed in there? Haven't heard of this problem, but then again I haven't really looked too hard at this bullet in the past.

It probably got brushed upon, I weighed in with my experience and moved on.

You have to realize that for the most part people don't kill a trainload of buffalo and then make up their mind. Mostly they make up their mind first, then if they are lucky they get to go once. A smaller number will go a couple or a few times. This guy, who is probably a hunting legend in his own circles can still count his kills on one hand. Now, was that 3-5 buffalo with the same bullet (nothing to compare to) or 3-5 with a different bullet every time? ( too small a sample) What's left? Well you can read, hope, guess, believe paid for endorsements, shoot a forest's worth of newspaper and plywood, read some more hearsay, quiz some PHs, and hope for the best. The good part is there are many great bullets, that have stood the test of time and chances are will work a few more times.

quote:

Safari raptors have the BC of a bag of leaves and performance does down with velocity loss.

Well said.
I only consider raptors that are tipped. For my 500 I am happy with a 350+10grain tip. And the jury is still out on my wife's 375 between a 200 grain GSC and a 335 extended range Raptor. I am also considering a move to the 307 grain (300+7) tipped raptor in .416.

It is a shame that more research has not been put into small-hollow-point raptors. The super-wide mouth raptors were mimicking the flat-nose solids, and the ads advertise the 13-degree profile on the raptors, forgetting that the raptors blow their nose petals and the 13-degrees is absolutely irrelevant. For the raptor the 13-degrees actually hinders a more aerodynamic design. One of the reasons for the lack of development of better BC safari raptors is that the lead researcher of the 300-page thread was mainly interested in hunting within 100 yards. Slowly this is being rectified by the Copper-lazer raptor line, but this will take a long time before it develops to the .416, 458, and 510 diameters.

Ive used the GSC stuff extensively and find it outstanding, On buffalo, Hippo, Elephant, I always want the heaviest bullet available in any bullet, and leave the Hi-vel stuff to the younger generation to test..Hi vel in my opine is for lighter boned animals in my opine, but To each his own on that subject however.

Well, saw the number "350" so many times in this thread and others that I ordered some 350gr Woodleigh PPs and Barnes TSXs. I'll give these a trial first, then give the 350 NF's a whirl.

dogleg, thank you for the info on the CEB's, I think I'll stay clear of them for now.

Thank you all for the advice.

I have had excellent results with woodleighs RNSP.
Factory loaded in Fed 470 ammo.
Shoulder to shoulder penetration.
Found perfectly mushroomed under skin on offside shoulder.
The other buff was a frontal shot, it stood on its nose and spun around but that was all she wrote.
Also took a zebra end to end with same bullet it ran 20 yards.

Nitro

I have shot a lot of buff, 45 to be exact. Most have been killed with Swift A- frames. A few have been killed with Barnes solids.

I prefer the A- Frames.

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Safari raptors have the BC of a bag of leaves and performance does down with velocity loss.

Well said.
I only consider raptors that are tipped. For my 500 I am happy with a 350+10grain tip. And the jury is still out on my wife's 375 between a 200 grain GSC and a 335 extended range Raptor. I am also considering a move to the 307 grain (300+7) tipped raptor in .416.

It is a shame that more research has not been put into small-hollow-point raptors. The super-wide mouth raptors were mimicking the flat-nose solids, and the ads advertise the 13-degree profile on the raptors, forgetting that the raptors blow their nose petals and the 13-degrees is absolutely irrelevant. For the raptor the 13-degrees actually hinders a more aerodynamic design. One of the reasons for the lack of development of better BC safari raptors is that the lead researcher of the 300-page thread was mainly interested in hunting within 100 yards. Slowly this is being rectified by the Copper-lazer raptor line, but this will take a long time before it develops to the .416, 458, and 510 diameters.

Tanz
The primary reason for the solid and raptor to have the same nose design was for them to shoot to the same POI

Never shot anything with a .375. With my .416, I really like Swift A Frames. Trophy Bonded Bear Claws are great too. Would like to try the North Forks, don't really like Nosler partitions or TSX.

Lavaca,
I don't know why you don't like the Nosler partition in a .416..Have you tried the Nosler 416 bullet since they moved the partition further forward, it sure made one hell of a bullet out of it..

FFEm,
You will love those 350 woodleighs in the .375, it basically gives you a 416 or 404 or so it seems to me and Ive used them extensively on buffalo, in fact I field tested them for Woodleigh and had a hand in designing them..Keep in mind the PP has more penetration than the RN and RN has more expansion..Use RN in the bush and PP for dagga boy hunting..I recall Geoff liked the PP and I liked the RN, so he settled that by making both..Actuall he was probably right the PP is the better of the two unless your a total nostalgic like me..I just love the look of those RN bullets, it just bespeaks Africa!!

Ray,

I haven't shot partitions in years in the .416. Did not know they had moved the partition forward. That should make a world of difference. I just thought the old one was a bit fragile on frontal shots. But every shot is different and every buffalo is different. You really need dozens or preferably hundreds to make a meaningful comparison and I certainly don't have that.

I can say that the Swift A-Frames rocked on three last October. Three buffalo, total of five shots including one finishing shot on a bull that was already down and dying and one brain shot on a bull that just hadn't realized he was dead yet. Could have easily been three one-shot kills.

Shot a 500 NF solid shank soft out of my 470 double @ 2200 FPS. Hit a Buff 1/4-1/3 the way up right on the shoulder at 20 yds. He immediately sat down like a dog. Jumped up and ran 30 ft. and was stone dead.
Bullet shot clean through both shoulders and exited.
Had 500 CEB solid in the second barrel. Never needed.

EZ

A - Frames or Triple shocks. I have used both along with trophy bonded bear claws. All work well.

Loaded up some of the 350 PP's with 4831sc, RL17, RL22, and IMR 4350 with loads provided by Woodleigh and the 350 TSX's with RL15 per the barnes website. Hoping to get out Thursday or this weekend to shoot some groups.
Also plan to do some more shooting from the sticks with the 470. I've 500gr RN's over 4831sc and 500gr TSX's over RL15 with backer rod filler.
Thank you all for the advice. Planning to get some NF's and A-frames soon, too. Wishing they made the A-frames in a 350 for the 375. Will report back.

I don't want a pass-through with softs. That's just likely to make problems. Haven't had an issue with that with anything I've used.

quote:

Originally posted by FFemtRN5287:
Loaded up some of the 350 PP's with 4831sc, RL17, RL22, and IMR 4350 with loads provided by Woodleigh and the 350 TSX's with RL15 per the barnes website. Hoping to get out Thursday or this weekend to shoot some groups.
Also plan to do some more shooting from the sticks with the 470. I've 500gr RN's over 4831sc and 500gr TSX's over RL15 with backer rod filler.
Thank you all for the advice. Planning to get some NF's and A-frames soon, too. Wishing they made the A-frames in a 350 for the 375. Will report back.

Agree a 350g A-Frame out our 375 Weatherby at 2550 fps would be sweet.