Winchester is still offerering a Custom Shop Left hand stainless 375 H&H with a McMillan stock and Kreiger barrel for $2,500. Dealer said they are avaliable for order.
What do you guys think?

I might wonder about the quality of guns being made now, given that the people making them might be pretty pis#ed off.

Just an opinion, but the quality had been dropping already, before the announcement

Snowwolfe - I think there are much better guns to be had (with the same features) than the custom shop Win...

Hein's "Palouse Trophy Series" is a much better gun and buy than the winchester.

The "Custom Shop" winchester is $2500 and Hein's "Trophy Series" is $2700.

The obvious difference is in the quality... Hein starts with a $2K action, you can get the same stock and barrel and the custom one-piece bottom metal... plus a host of other options.

If you want it to say "winchester" then you have to order the custom shop gun... if you want the best guy you can buy for @2500... then it's the Hein (IMO) Hands-Down.

And of course LH is avaialable from Hein at no extra charge.

www.rifleactions.com

let's be fair..

hein's with a wood stock START at 4500....

so, if you compare apples to apples, the winchester is a steal... though the winchester is a smaller drier harder apple...

jeffe

I'd skip it. You can have someone competent build a .375H&H with a Krieger barrel for a hell of a lot less than $2500, and it will work upon delivery.

I have one LH Custom Shop rifle, a Model 70 Custom Sporting SharpShooter in 7mmSTW. That gun was put together correctly, and the factory test target shows it shot in the 1s (0.1326", to be exact, although I've never been able to shoot it better than 0.220").
However, that gun was actually built by H-S Precision for the USRAC Custom Shop, so it may not be representative of the Custom Shop's usual quality.

George

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
let's be fair..

hein's with a wood stock START at 4500....

so, if you compare apples to apples, the winchester is a steal... though the winchester is a smaller drier harder apple...

jeffe

Jeffe - Read Snowwolfe's post again... the $2500 the custom shop quoted him is for a synthetic stocked LH Model 70.

We are talking apples-to-apples...
- same features for the two actions (clearly the Hein is better made)
- synthetic stock (I'm sure Hein will use a McMillan if you want)
- Kreiger barrel (Hein I'm sure will use whatever barrel you want.)
- 1-piece bottom metal (drop-box if you want) machined for the specific cartridge of chambering.

I think it's clear cut: "custom" winchester for 2500 or a real "custom" (with actual custom options and more features) from Hein for $200 more?

It would be a no-brainer for me.

I agree w/ George, for that kind o fmoney you can get exactly what you want froma good rifle builder. Find a doner action or rifle & get going.

new_guy:

Exactly!

I pulled up the "Hein" site...very nice looking stuff...makes me want one...have you handled one of those? what are they like...any comparisons to share?

What did you ever do with that North Fork Cup Point I sent you?

Thanks!

jjs - No, I have NOT handled a Hein - built rifle, but I have previously handled the Noreen actions (which is now Hein). The Noreen was excellent - well beyond an off-the-shelf M70. Smoother, much less "sloppy" feeling and the new Heins come in 5+ sizes.

I've talked to Karl, and one great advantage to the Hein is that the magazines are cartridge-specific. So they arrive with no feeding issues.

I still have the NF you sent (thanks again). I needed it at the time (Mike was out of stock) to measure case capacity with a seated bullet.

Without a lead core, they are obviously longer and take up more room in the case. Thanks again.

PS - Now that I read snowwolfe's post agian, I see that he's talking about a SS action... I don't know if Hein makes a SS action.

This one may be in-the-white
http://www.rifleactions.com/palouse.jpg

Remember,
I want a LA Stainless. Anyone else make one with a Win 70 style trigger for a leftie?

I fired off a quote to Hein....very nice actions. Within 30 minutes of me sending in the quote they called me up to discuss details. They suggesteted I forget the satin chrome and stay with something called NP3. Since they make there own bottom metal there is no additional charge for being able to get 4 down! Thanks!

I am in the same left hand boat as you are. I have standard grade M70 in 375 H&H I got from Hunters HQ. He might still have some left. I heard a rumor that the custom shop was done as well and that orders were canceled. Not sure if that was here or from another source locally. I'm considering ordering the Montana rifleman action or barreled action and taking it from there. I've talked with a couple of guys in my area that used them as a basis and they love them. For the price, a little general contracting on your part, might be worth the effort.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Remember,
I want a LA Stainless. Anyone else make one with a Win 70 style trigger for a leftie?

I fired off a quote to Hein....very nice actions. Within 30 minutes of me sending in the quote they called me up to discuss details. They suggesteted I forget the satin chrome and stay with something called NP3. Since they make there own bottom metal there is no additional charge for being able to get 4 down! Thanks!

NP3 is a Robar coating - if i recall - similar to electroless nckel?

Kurick,
I just sold my LH win 70 375H&H. Mailing it out today in fact. Beautiful rifle but simply to pretty and to heavy to carry through the alders all day.
I also have a MRC barrled action on order, in stainless, 458 Lott.
I want bullet proof rifles that can get banged up without losing sleep over it. Someone I know is selling a LH 375 H&H Dakota so I will wait to see this rifle again before deciding what to do about the Heim. Being 52 years old the rifle I order/purchase now will stay with me till I die so I might as well make sure it is a good one!

Snow-I am with what George S said in his first sentence.

Skip it, you can have the very similar thing built for a lot less from any number of competent smiths.

If you are serious I can hook you up with a couple that are very good and will take very good care of you.

Mark D

I'm with you on banging stuff up. The standard M70 I got is kinda ugly actually. The only pretty gun I own is my Shiloh Sharps and we are still fighting after 5 years. I banged it up on an Idaho elk hunt a little and got some rust under where the rear tang sight used to be and it made me sick. I rifle shouldn't make a man feel that way. If it doesn't start shooting by the end of summer I swear it's going to go from a 45-3.25" to a 45-90 or maybe a 40-65 so I can actually enjoy shooting it...grumble, grumble. Sorry for the off topic....

Mark,
I agree. I am waiting for a price quote on the Hein.
I need to look at a Left hand syn stocked Dakota again a dealer was selling but he will not be back till first week of March. He has had it for a few years and I need to find out the price and options on it before proceeding. I was under the impression it was a 97 but Dakota emailed me and told me they only make lefties in the 76. If I don't get the Dakota I think I would be hard pressed to find a better rifle than the Hein for a price under 3,500.
But as my wife keeps on telling me, I may be dumb but I am trainable! So I appreciate any and all idea's.

The only trouble I have seen with the Winchester Custom Shop Model 70s, and I do have one in .416 Rem. Mag., is that they have the standard, flimsy Winchester factory sights and that awful, darkish stained wood finish.

These things can be fixed, of course. Otherwise, most of the custom shop M70 rifles I have handled, and mine in particular, are well finished and very smooth and reliable in operation.

Snowwolfe,

Chrome Moly steel coated with NP3 will be far more weather resistant than a Stainless Steel rifle.

LD

Lawndart,
Why is that? Does the NP3 finish wear well?

At the SCI convention in Reno last month, a salesman at the Winchester Custom Shop mentioned that they were closing the Custom Shop in May.

Anyone have more information on this possible truth?

Geoff

My dealer told me that is true, with the exception of what is avaliable on Winchesters web site.

quote:

Originally posted by Snowwolfe:
Lawndart,
Why is that? Does the NP3 finish wear well?

NP3 from www.robarguns.com

What is NP3?
NP3 is a surface treatment for steel and metal alloys that combines sub-micron particles of P.T.F.E (polytetrafluorothylene) with electroless nickel.

NP3 - THE PROCESS
The application of NP3 is auto-catalytic, that is, not requiring any form of electricity. This process is preferable to standard electrolytic plating as all active surfaces are evenly plated, which is not the case with any electorytically deposited coating. With Robar's well-equipped laboratory, coating thickness can be maintained to within .0002 or two ten thousandths of one inch, guaranteeing consistent quality coatings. With the P.T.F.E. evenly distributed and locked into the nickel phosphorus matrix, NP3 is a true composite. If wear occurs, fresh particles of P.T.F.E are exposed to keep the opposing surfaces lubricated throughout the life of the coating.

NP3 - THE ADVANTAGES


Very accurate and even coatings on all activated surfaces.
No lubrication is needed on opposing surfaces.
Cleaning is minimal, usually requiring only a soft cloth.
Firing for longer periods of time between cleaning, as dirt has no wet or oily surface to cling to.
NP3 has a micro hardness of 48-51 Rockwell as plated (nickel matrix).
NP3 is very corrosion resistant, a 1 mil (.001) coating exceeding 240 hour salt spray test.
NP3 has a high lubricity and low friction co-efficient; therefore, the life expectancy of a firearm will be greatly increased due to the less friction wear.
The coating is strippable with no effect on the base metal, allowing other coatings to be applied or a new coating of NP3 to be applied if necessary.
NP3 plated onto stainless steel guns will stop galling, a problem common the stainless steel guns.
NP3 is a satin grey, non-reflective color ideal for all firearms.
NP3 can be plated to all internal parts giving a smoothness to the action not found with any other coating.
In cases where the NP3 has been perforated, the corrosion shows no tendency to spread or migrate under the coating.

Rather than buy a custom shop rifle, I'd look for a left hand 300 weatherby, or a LH 300 H&H or LH 7MM STW and rebarrel it.

I'm not totally impressed with the custom shop from Winchester at all.

The New Guy nailed the NP3 advantages. I use it on the internals of my carry pistols, and on the rifle I take with me fishing in Alaska.

LD

Sounds promising. Is it avaliable in a satin chrome finish, matt black, etc?

Snowwolfe,

Robar offers Rogaurd which is satin black. Not as nice looking as a good satin blue job or fine slow rust blue, but pleasing none the less. Much more durable as well. My dad has a 1911 that has been coated with Rogaurd and it doesn't show any signs of wear on the rails after cycling thousands of rounds of ammo. Instead of a nickle based finish (NP3) I believe it is molybdenum based.

A barreled action from Montana rifle co about
$900.00. Mine shoots a 1/2 moa and is the easiest barrel I own to clean. I have Harts Kriegers and Lilja. get a stock from accurate inovations for $280 or so depending what you want. You have the option having other cal built to same spec so your hunting battery will all be the same.

JD

Winchester's custom shop has had marginal quality for quite a few years now. I would not buy one.

quote:

Originally posted by DavidReed:
My dad has a 1911 that has been coated with Rogaurd and it doesn't show any signs of wear on the rails after cycling thousands of rounds of ammo. Instead of a nickle based finish (NP3) I believe it is molybdenum based.

You can always NP3 the internals and Roguard the exterior.

Snowwolf,buy the custom Winchester.All these guys don't know anything about making rifles.There like todays dentists,got all them fancy diplomas on the wall from all these pestigious and forign places then when it's your turn they have some student or new guy do it.It's like that all the time everywhere,all these no moral business guys scewing everyone over.I recommend you buy a factory rifle or build one yourself.Too many PHONIES.

I would disagree shootaway. I never gave much thought to having a Hein rifle built as I deemed them to be out of my league. I once viewed there web page but never noticed the base price of they syn stocks rifles at $2,700. But comparing a custom shop W70 for 2500 +change against a rifle custom built for me on the Hein action in a quality syn stock with RP3 finish (and it holds four down, five if I want it) for approximately $3,100 just isnt a good camparison. I have never held a Hein in my hands. However I have learned much from others in here since joining. If I pass on the LH Dakota I am waiting to see I will definetly order the Hein.
I am sure I will make the purists cringe if they seen the Hein in a syn stock out in the wilds of Alaska but I suspect they will forgive me. Cheers

Snowwolfe,have you held a Hein or Dakota in your hands worked the action and pulled the trigger,loaded it up fed and extracted the rounds again and again to see if there was a difference compared to a plain factory Wincester?It sure as hell is not more accurate.If you did that and saw that there was a big difference and that it was better than you probably wouldn't have to bother asking for an oppinion.

No, I havent held a Hein but I have held a Dakota.

But these guys make good sense. Why spend 2,500 and change for a Model 70 rifle that has a standard action on it when for a few more 100 I can have a rifle custom built for me, that holds 4 down, has a stock with the correct LOP.

Sorry, Call me rich and foolish but I am tired of buying off the rack, lol. Hell, I even have a Corvette that sits in my garage for 6 months out of the year. But the other six months I love it None of us can justify anything we buy other than food and shelter. Its all for fun, life is to short. It is always fun to try new things. Enjoy it!

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Snowwolfe,have you held a Hein or Dakota in your hands worked the action and pulled the trigger,loaded it up fed and extracted the rounds again and again to see if there was a difference compared to a plain factory Wincester?It sure as hell is not more accurate.If you did that and saw that there was a big difference and that it was better than you probably wouldn't have to bother asking for an oppinion.

What the heck do you know about these actions and rifles shootaway? I eagerly await your response

At least I can say that I've handled them on plenty of occassions- enough to know that there is a slight difference and that if snowwolfe has no particular preference for Model 70s that he should consider his other options.

Cheers,
CL

Lefty,
What is your opinion of the Hein?

I like them. I also like the 76 (Dakota), though I do not like a couple of Dakota's senior managers that I have dealt with. I'd have a slight preference for Hein for overall value. If you went with Dakota, I'd just buy their action and have a very good gunsmith build you a rifle. It will cost more for little additional value. Last that I remember, their actions were around $2,500.

I would honestly also consider Empire rifles (I saw their actions at SCI/SHOT a couple of years ago and like how they're made.). That being said, I am no expert when it comes to properly evaluating rifle actions. Their actions also start around $2000+.

Personally, I have decided to stick with Win. Model 70 SS actions for most of my hunting. If I get a 416 Rigby one day, I'd look at these action types again.

The Dakota I am interested in is already built. A dealer I know picked it up from an estate sale. I checked out the Empires also. Same basic package would cost me another 1,200 or so from them compared to the Hein.

Snowwolfe,

While I have been judged to be of "no moral" (immoral ?) I can think of only one place better to see one of our rifles than the wilds of AK. and that is Africa. I believe this is due in no small part to the 13 degree reading on my patio thermometer. Fantasizing about warmer climates is a sure sign of poor character of so I have been told.

Mr. Hein let us now judge your knowledge of building superior actions.Is your firing pin spring more consitant in strike energy over a Sako's,or a Winchester's? Is it faster? In what single action operation can we easily see the greater quality of your action?Is the locking lug system more accurate or stronger than Remington's,Sako's or Winchester's?Is the safety on your action designed and function superior to other actions?If you answer with reason you will be removed from my list of no moral business owners or those undergoing investigation.

Move aside fool and let the man answer.