every month if you like it or not...
Just got to have a 45-70 thread

JPK--I appreciate your advice on the choice of bullet for buffalo and elephant. Experience counts, and you have it.

I do not plan to shoot a bullet that will not give complete pass through on the buffalo. The 16-1 alloy in the 520 grain bullet gives the effect of a solid out of the 45-110. It will out penetrate a 450 TSX out of a 458 Win. Mag by a considerable margin.

For what it is worth, the same load and bullet has given better penetration than the Garrett Hammerheads from a 45-70 in a heads up test. Based on this, and the fact that the 45-70 with the Garrett loads has proven to be adequate, I feel the rifle and load will do the job provided the bullet is put in the right place.

What it really boils down to is using the RIGHT BULLET that will not come apart. The only question I have at present is whether to go with a proven performer in the 520 round nosed bullet I have, or a 540 grain flat nosed bullet.

I plan to shoot an American bison this fall with the 540 flat nose, and am looking for a frontal head shot. That is about the best real world test I can come up with at present that will give me a look at how much penetration this bullet will give, and if I recover it, how it holds together. So far, I have been unable to recover a bullet from any animal I have shot. On the other hand, I have never shot an elephant, either! I fully expect to find one there.

Thanks again for the advice, as I do appreciate it.

One of my go-to loads for my Guide Gun is a 405gr Cast Performance hardcast over 50.0gr of H322. I shot a bear with this load a couple of years ago. It chronos right at 1,800fps and I would not want to go any hotter although John Taffin has loaded it as hot as 52.0gr which he says is absolute Max in a lever gun.

I cannot see how it is possible to safely get an additional 600fps using what is basically the same weight bullet and the same powder I don't care how slippery the bullet is or how many Tubbs bullets have been sent down the barrel.

I don't understand this pretending that the 45-70 is a DGR and a stopper. It never has been and it isn't. I also have a .450 Dakota and a .375 and the 45-70 isn't even in the same ballpark with either of them.

Grizzly Ammo loads a 405 grain Punch Bullet to 2050 FPS. I would think that would leave a mark



http://www.grizzlycartridge.com/-strse-22/45-dsh-70--pl...405-Grain/Detail.bok

Those Punch bullets will leave a mark on your wallet.....

quote:

I am in the planning stages of a Cape Buffalo/elephant hunt for 2010. If I can pull it off, I will use a 520 grain bullet at 20-1 lead/tin for the buffalo, and the same bullet at 16-1 for the elephant in my 45-110. These bullets will stay together well beyond where your wheel weight test bullets came apart, and will give much better penetration.

20:1 or 16:1 lead:tin would be insignificantly different, one from the other, and far inferior to wheel weight alloy (lead, antimony, tin, arsenic), which would be harder and tougher, and could be heat treated to hardness greater than linotype, even if you added 2% extra tin to the WW alloy to make it prettier ... unless that 20:1 and 16:1 is made with pure lead and "pixie tin" and some "pixie dust" is included with the BS in the powder charge of the H322 load.

quote:

I do not plan to shoot a bullet that will not give complete pass through on the buffalo. The 16-1 alloy in the 520 grain bullet gives the effect of a solid out of the 45-110. It will out penetrate a 450 TSX out of a 458 Win. Mag by a considerable margin.

Now that is impressive. jorge

Hodgdon's website data shows 50 grains of H322 pushing a 400 GR. SPR JFP .458" at 1767 FPS 23,700 CUP, 55.0 grains at 1984 FPS 39,200 CUP

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Extremist,
I've been running some H322 loads through my QuickLoad program, and dang if I can come up with 2300 FPS with a 400 grain anything.
50 grains of H322 will give 2313 FPS with a Garret 400 grain .458 but that 145% of case capacity and pressure over 130,000 PSI. Max PSI for 45/70 Gov. CIP is 31908.

Perhaps, if you could give me some detail on your own handloads?

Hodgdon published a 45-70 load for the Marlin 1895 of 55 grains compressed of H322 with a 400 grain Speer bullet for 1984 fps and 39,200 CUP in a 24" barrel. I have used the same load under a 405 grain Remington JSP for 14 years. The literature over the last 30 years has supported a safe operating pressure for the Marlin 1895 45-70 of 40,000 CUP. Quickload has many shortcomings; modelling 45-70 loads is one of them.

Just over one ounce of projectile is required to achieve a sectional density of .300 in the 45-70. Even in a 26" barreled Ruger No. 1 with a long throat a 450 grain Beartooth hard cast LFN bullet can only be safely driven at most 2100 fps. A powerful round indeed, but certainly marginal for the largest African game.

2300 fps with a 400 grain Punch bullet in a Marlin 1895XLR is dangerous. It may seem like it works for a while, but it is certainly placing undue stress and wear on the rifle and will cause its premature demise. In addition. why would one drive that bullet that fast when even in the article cited the author states,"Penetration tests also showed that there was little to be gained by pushing the bullet any faster than just under 2000 fps."? Slightly over 2000 fps with the 400 grain Punch bullet should be about the limit in a Marlin 1895 45-70 with a 22" barrel. Those guys over at leverguns.com over load all sorts of stuff and write about it. Jeff Quinn's 60.1 grain load of AA2460 should be considered about maximum with the 400 grain Punch Bullet in the Marlin 1895 45-70.

Quote from Jeff Quinn:
"The best powders that I found in my trials consisted of Accurate Arms’ AA2460 and Hodgdon’s H322. While I got velocities as high as 2248 feet-per-second (fps) with a healthy dose of H322, velocities were becoming erratic, so I backed off on that charge. Penetration tests also showed that there was little to be gained by pushing the bullet any faster than just under 2000 fps. Also keep in mind that all of my testing was done with my Marlin Guide Gun, which wears an eighteen and one-half inch ported barrel." Consistant with both of my previous points.

Quote from Paco Kelly:
"I didn’t have an elk to test these on, even if I did I would welcome a frontal shot cause these beauties would completely transverse the animal. It will even do it on moose. Why can I be so certain? Because at a modest 1650 fps with a load of 40 grains of ReL #7 at around 26,000 psi... I couldn’t keep them inside 60 inches of wet phone books with 1/4 inch plywood sheets every 20 inches...This out of a new Marlin 450 or my almost new 45-70, will take down any animal on earth cleanly if placed right. This bullet is made for the big bears, the African buffalo and elephant. They go absolutely straight in the heavy medium we tested in them... no riveting shown in the one dug out of almost a yard of hard dirt berm. I was going to dig out more, but the caliche dirt here in Arizona is like cement. One was enough. These bullets are pricey, but you don’t use them for anything but big game... that’s big, big game! Want to take your big game with a 45-70? These are the bullets to use. Of course you can also use them in a .458 Winchester caliber rifle. But they are made for the 45-70, and why carry a heavy .458 when the trim Marlin 45-70 is much lighter and faster at recharging the chamber than a bolt action!"

I'm finishing up my load today. My chrono seems to have been damaged more then I thought, velocity's have ranged from 1689 to 2697. I've got one I can borrow to finish up and have a video for you soon. I'm also building a 3/4" plywood box for testing, much like the one in the 470Mbongo video.

Hold your negativity until I'm done.

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Hodgdon's website data shows 50 grains of H322 pushing a 400 GR. SPR JFP .458" at 1767 FPS 23,700 CUP, 55.0 grains at 1984 FPS 39,200 CUP

IIRC, 52 grains of RL-7 gave just over 2000 fps with 400-grainers in my Marlin 45-70, and it loosened every screw in the gun, as well as my head.

I went back to Elmer's load for just over 1800 fps with 400-grainers, using 53 grains of IMR 3031.

RIP--You are guessing and regurgitating what you have read/been told about the toughness of wheelweight bullets. JPK demonstrated that quenched wheelweights WILL COME APART when driven at impact velocities near 1500 fps. A number of us have known this for years.

There is a significant difference between a lead/tin alloyed bullet at 30-1, 20-1, and 16-1. My bullets do not fragment like your vaunted wheelweight bullets. Neither do Garretts.

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
RIP--You are guessing and regurgitating what you have read/been told about the toughness of wheelweight bullets. JPK demonstrated that quenched wheelweights WILL COME APART when driven at impact velocities near 1500 fps. A number of us have known this for years.

There is a significant difference between a lead/tin alloyed bullet at 30-1, 20-1, and 16-1. My bullets do not fragment like your vaunted wheelweight bullets. Neither do Garretts.

You're painting a broad brush-stroke here. I too have never experienced quenched wheel-weight bullets come apart. Mine have never been brittle.

Whitworth--I am not being argumentative here, but I am speaking from direct personal experience going back to the early eighties. Perhaps you are doing something different to keep your wheelweight bullets from coming apart and would be willing to share it with us.

What I DO KNOW is that I have had wheelweight bullets come apart. The Gould 340 grain hollowpoint will blow up on the shoulder of a deer when cast from wheelweights. The resulting shrapnell does make a frightful wound, however. I have had a 510 grain wheelweight bullet fragment on a big Holstein, and I have seen 405 grain flatnosed bullets cast from wheelweights fragment on deer. I saw it again in our hunting camp last year, in fact.

The bullets JPK carried were supposed to be done correctly, and I assume they were, yet they came apart. Granted, the skull of an elephant has to be the ultimate test, but it was a wheelweight bullet that fragmented.

If you have a way to keep wheelweight bullets from coming apart, I wish you would tell us about it. They are certainly cheaper and far more available than pure lead and tin, and I have about a thousand pounds of them.

quote:

Originally posted by sharpsguy:
RIP--You are guessing and regurgitating what you have read/been told about the toughness of wheelweight bullets. JPK demonstrated that quenched wheelweights WILL COME APART when driven at impact velocities near 1500 fps. A number of us have known this for years.

There is a significant difference between a lead/tin alloyed bullet at 30-1, 20-1, and 16-1. My bullets do not fragment like your vaunted wheelweight bullets. Neither do Garretts.

I call Bull SHIT!
Somebody must have sprinkled the pixie dust in the WW melt instead of in the 45-70 powder charge!

Rippalloy:
12 pounds Wheel Weights
1/2 pound 95/5 solder (tin/antimony)
1/2 pound chilled lead no.7-1/2 shot

I cast a .396/340-grain LBT LFN GC from that. Water dropped.

It impacted the Iron WaterBoard Buffalo at 2200 fps.

It mushroomed beautifully an retained over 80% of weight.

Picture of recovered bullet available.

Much better than any of those lead/tin mixtures mentioned.

I have done a little more than just read about them. I am new to cast bullets, but I seemed to have learned more than you have about wheel weights.

My Rippalloy is essentially WW with extra tin, about same antimony and arsenic content as WW. That is the idea, don't dilute the othercomponents by just adding tin.

It can be hardened by heat treating too.
I have not done that yet.
Maybe that would get brittle and shatter when the Brinell hardness gets over 30 ...
I don't see any need for that.

RIP--Bull Shit, eh? This ain't my first rodeo with these things, and your Ripalloy sounds like you have put a fair share of your magic pixie dust in it along with your particular brand of BS. Maybe it does work, but the point is that heat treated wheelweights FRAGMENT ON GAME. Got that?? We were talking about WHEELWEIGHTS, weren't we?

20-1 and 30-1 lead to tin stay together and WORK, whether you like it or not. They work in Africa, on African animals, too. Been there and done that, and when I go back, you can bet the farm I won't have any wheelweight alloy in my bullets.

Rip & Sharpsguy, I know both of you, suffice to say there is enough knowledge between the both of you to fill a few tomes. What we have here is a failure to communicate. For all our sakes, I recommend you guys break off the action, reflect, & re-engage. WE all stand to win. jorge

Everyone is jaw flapping again and comparing apples, oranges, bananas and breadfruit.

It doesn't matter if you fire the same bullet out of a 45-70, 45 LC or 450-400 or any other cartridge case...as long as the velocity is the same, the medium it went into the same, the result will be the same and the bullet will react the same...the bullet doesn't give a damn WHAT case it started in. You start changing bullets and swapping cases around and all your doing is "proving" what you think is obvious and you're more interested in winning some BS forum argument than providing useful data.

Everyone goes into "proving mode" ... I'm "proving" my case by the smoke and mirror, "I donit" verbage and BS routine.

Christ...if you people would stop "proving" and start putting out some definitive information is such a way that it could be compiled, maybe someone would take the time to build a data base that could be accessed by everyone and evaluated as to pick the better bullet for what is being hunted.

I've never seen a "hard" or "soft" cast bullet
"blow" up on anything but a large bone close to the skin surface...basically the wrong spot anyway. I've killed or seen killed deer, elk, black bear and moose, not including varmints, with everything from a 17 Rem to 45-70 and 54 cal BK round ball from my rack plus just about all the standard calibers up to 50 cal from others hunters and probably every bullet type and style out there and velocity you can come up with reasonably...and never had ANY "blowups" unless a shoulder knuckle or backbone/pelvic gurdle was hit.

Hard/soft cast or swaged bullets didn't "blowup", they will, in some cases bullet type dependent, separate quickly and gouged a large hole in the thin meat surrounding the hit instead of puching a nice small hole and doing it's work inside the animal...but a "blowup" makes for a gory story, much better in some minds.

I've put a nice round 54 cal hole through both sholder blades of two elk and out the other side at about 75 yds and took off the horns and skull top off several deer and elk with brain shots with several different calibers plus put hard cast 45-70 rounds from ham to brisket in southbound deer and elk. A few friends with 45-70 leverguns have puched through blackbear and into the ground from baited tree hides and the same through animals on the ground...only one recovered hard cast bullet with a slightly bent, small mushroom. The only animals I've seen blowup were small varmints using a hi-velo, small cal, light bullet. That doesn't mean I would ever use any of those calibers or bullets for hunting elephant or buffalo or any other plains game.

I doesn't matter how many "big'uns" you've pranged or how many times or where you've been, the difference between a hunter and a butcher is if you use the right, time tested bullet for the game you're hunting and putting the bullet in the right place to make a quick clean kill...the rest is just gut wind and whiskey talk.

There has never been anything now,in the past, or will be in the future anything supernatural about the 45-70. Pick the right bullet and it will penetrate, pick the wrong bullet and it will become a 50 cent piece depending on the medium it goes into...I and others make 50 cent pieces all the time on my steel plates. It is an excellent caliber used in the right circumstances, but playing the nostalgia card gets old. I like my NEF BC 45-70...it does a very good job with Barnes 350 to 450 gr pointy bullets and with a 32" barrel I can get velocities in the magnum range. It drops anything I point it at quickly...but if I were after African game I would be using my 375 H&H and/or 416 Taylor "Mousers" for many reasons not having anything to do with caliber and a "solid" type bullet...I know they will work on any animal I will shoot.

The 45/70 with hard cast bullets will kill most game well.

Where it starts to come up short is in the really BIG stuff like cape buff, giraffe, hippo, rhino and of course elephant.
It has killed the BIG ones, but so has a bow, and a handgun.
Using one of them comes under the label of a stunt hunt. A stunt hunt being one where you use less than the optimal rifle choice for the chosen game. If your choice of weapon is less than what can kill from any angle, then it is a stunt.

[Notice I have not said anything against such stunt hunts, so do not take offense from my post].

If I was going to use the 45/70 against the BIG ONES I would do one of the following.

Use Garretts Lead bulleted 45/70 reloads.
His lead bullets are harder/tougher than ANY OTHER lead bullets I have seen or used.


Elephant hunting is a whole "nother" world.

I have shot elephants in the head with Garrett 44 Mag loads and Buffalo Bore 475 Linebaugh loads. The Garrett lead bullets stood up much better, however I waz still concerned about using lead for a head shot, so I found some modified solids for the 470 double that would work in my 475.

They penetrated to the brain, no problem, but some uncontroled conditions between the game dept and the Tribal council prevented me fron getting into a certain area...

So If elephant was on the menu and I was bound and determined to use a handgun or a 45/70 I would want to use a "solid" bullet that was not 100% lead.

US law prevents the selling of a homogenious "solid" bullet for a handgun, as it falls under the catagory of "armour penetrating".

The best bet on the market now is the Punch bullet for handguns. I got some 475 bullets from Grizzly Cartridge for my 475 but they were loaded too long for the FA cylinder, being crimped in the wrong groove, so they did not go to Africa.

In the 45/70 the AP law is not an issue.
For elephant I would use jacketed bullet "solid" loads from Garretts, Cor-Bon, Grizzly, or load such bullet for myself.

Remember the 45/70 falls short in sectional density, and velocity for what is considered normal for elephant hunting.

Even if you have everything as good as it gets for the 45/70, it is still a STUNT.

The 450/400 is just about the perfect double rifle cartridge for the modern sport hunter.

Low recoil, faster recovery for the second shot, plenty of power, plenty of penetration, with silids or softs, good expansion on the soifts, and if built properly light enough to carry on long walks/stalks usually associated with elephant and cape buff hunts.

The 45/70 is not even close, nor even in the same class for such game as the 450/400.

In fact I would much much rather have a 9,3x74R that a 45/70 for such game.

Excellent post 450, a prime example on how discussions should go here and BTW, at least to this neophyte, makes 100% sense! jorge

quote:

Originally posted by jorge:
Excellent post 450, a prime example on how discussions should go here and BTW, at least to this neophyte, makes 100% sense! jorge

Excuse, please. 45-70 threads in the big bore forum put me on edge.

My brother BIP, I call him "Bip" for short, has a recipe perfect for conicals in his BP rifles.

Bippalloy:
12 pounds pure lead
1/2 pound 95/5 solder.

It is softer than Rippalloy.

I have a bunch of 20:1 bullets of .396 caliber that are sold by Buffalo Arms, made by Montana Precision Swaging, IIRC, meant for paper patching.

My thumbnail tells me they are a lot softer than Rippalloy, about like Bippalloy.

IIRC, the 20:1 was about a 12 BHN.
Rippalloy was about 15 BHN with my LBT hardness tester. However my thumbnail may be better than the LBT tester.

Linotype is something like 20-22 BHN.
It is said to shatter at top velocities in game.

20:1 may not shatter, but it sure turns into a pancake at 2000 fps.

Rippalloy does not shatter nor pancake.

Either one would be O.K. at 1400 fps.

But we are after the 45-70 elephant load, are we not?

I'm with you on the 45/70 issue RIP. It's the undisputed winner of the "making a silk purse out of a sow's ear" award of all time. jorge

Hey FOOBAR,

The 450/400 shoots either .408" or .411" bullets!

The 45/70, 45?, 458? all shoot .458" bullets.

There is a hell of alot difference between a 400gr .408" bullet and a 400gr .458" bullet!!!

JPK

I'm with JPK on this one. a lot of difference.

Having hunted with the 45-70 some and the 45-90 a great deal, I can attest that neither of them are a very good killer of elk IMO...They kill very slowly and you better be a good tracker and place every shot perfect on elk..They kill deer very well. I prefer hard cast bullets in either of them as opposed to soft points but the 350 gr. Hornady round nose was my favorite soft point and it did well on deer.

I have a number of elk kills on tape and they are not pretty.

If one wants to hunt and swear by the 45-70 for elk then have at it, I don't care, but don't bore me with pictures of dead elk and how good the pumpkin roller is, it ain't. I would just as soon use a 30-30 with 170 gr. bullets.

Now we're getting somewhere. I don't recall saying anything about using a 45-70. I shoot a 45-110. Different animal. We were also originally talking about penetration in the skull of an elephant with bullets tested by JPK, and the fact that I have a bullet that will not come apart and will work on a brain shot on an elephant using my 45-110. And no, it won't be driven at 2000 fps, either.

I did say that Garrett's bullets do not come apart, and they don't. He doesn't drive his at 2000 fps, either.

Sharpsguy,

As you know, I'm a fan of solids. So I wonder how solid is your 16-1 bullets vs your 20-1 bullet. Also, why wouldn't you use the 30-1 bullets you mention, at least for eles where any expansion is a tremendous disadvantage?

Expansion is not needed for a .458" bullet in a buff and plain trouble for an elephant, so why not the hardest bullets for both?

What velocity do you push your bullets to in your 45-110?

Also to test your round noses against your flat noses how about trying stem to stern shots on your dead bison. Same velocity, same weight, seems that would be a very interesting and informative test. I'm betting on the flat nose, so long as it doesn't expand at all. Neither should expand for your buff or ele, imo!

Here is just my opinion: The modern rifle hunter, even if using a relatively slow bolt rifle has the benefit of a soft and then solids. If you can reload as fast or faster, then go this route too for buff, your softer then your "solid". If not, stick to the solid!

Best,

JPK

JPK--We are on the same page, more or less. The 30-1 bullet acts like a solid on American animals, including bison, at 520 grains. It has also done the same thing on plains game in RSA, and so far has given complete pass through penetration. I have yet to recover a bullet.

I definitely realize that Cape Buffalo and elephant are a step up, and a harder, less ductile bullet is in order. This is why I will go to the 20-1 or 16-1.

Your idea of a stern entry test shot on a bison this fall is a good one. I will definitely do it with both the round nosed bullet and a flat nosed 540 grain bullet I have. It will be very informative.

I launch the bullets at velocities ranging from 1382 fps for the round nosed 511 grain paper patched bullet to 1367 for the round nosed grease groove 520 grainer. I find the most accurate load for a particular bullet, then chronograph it with an Oehler 35P.

I get really good penetration with these bullets with impact velocities that run around 1150 fps. I shot through both shoulders and out the other side of a blue wildebeast at 312 yards with the 1367 fps muzzle velocity load, and the 511 paper patched bullet gave complete diagonal pass through on a zebra from 90 yards.

I have to say, sometimes you guys crack me up The 450 black powder express was the most used of the express cartridges. Taylor used one on everything and thought very highly of it, it was Selous favorite rifle/cartridge in his Gibbs made Farquharson. All this with a 365 grn hardened lead bullet at 1700, and the newer cordite load of 365 at 2100. A 45/70 exquells or surpasses these loads, but useing it is a stunt?? A pure stopper I dont call it, adequate when used properly.... obviously. Old Ray cant kill elk with his 45/70 and a 350 hornady, but I've had no trouble dropping Eland with the same load. Are elk tougher then Eland? Could be I guess. I've shot eland with 8X68 and 375 H&H and they didnt drop any faster then with a 45/70.
Take a lever gun in 45/70 or 90, use it on North American game, take it to Africa, just be sure to call it an American version of a 450 BPE and it'll be fine!

quote:

Originally posted by TSJ:
I have to say, sometimes you guys crack me up The 450 black powder express was the most used of the express cartridges. Taylor used one on everything and thought very highly of it, it was Selous favorite rifle/cartridge in his Gibbs made Farquharson. All this with a 365 grn hardened lead bullet at 1700, and the newer cordite load of 365 at 2100.

"Them, they were giants," but those 450 BPE's and later NFBP's with the flyweight 365-grainers were the small bores of those Giants.
Plains game rifles only! Giants didn't get giant through reckless underarmament, nor did they have any need to stunt about. They used much bigger balls for DG and gladly got rid of those for the long and heavy bullets and greater powder charges of the True Nitro Express cartridges, allowing 2100 fps with SD > 0.300, a recipe for success with even such small bores as the 450's. No need to live in the past if you have a Giant future.

JPK,
"30:1" is "lead:tin" parts. 30:1 is softer than 20:1 or 16:1, the latter two of which have near same properties, harder than 30:1, so your suggestion of 30:1 use on elephant is puzzling.

20:1
95.24% lead
4.76% tin
Roughly 95%/5%

16:1
94.12% lead
5.88% tin
Roughly 94%/6%

Couldn't possibly be much difference between those two alloys.

Rippalloy:
92.13% lead
4.12% tin
3.50% antimony
0.25% arsenic
Rippalloy is very similar to WW, with tin content increased to about 4% and lead and antimony minimally decreased.
12 lbs. WW + 1/2 lbs. 95/5 solder (tin/antimony%) + 1/2 lb chilled shot. The shot is to add back the Pb and As diluted by the 95/5-Sn/Sb solder.

It is wheel weights with extra tin so it pours prettier and is only slightly harder than WW, water dropped.



At 2216 fps MV and 25 yard impact with water and wood sandwiches, the .396/410-gr bullet expanded to 204% diameter and retained 82.5% weight (factoring out the discarding gas check).

That is not a brittle, crumbling bullet. Nor is straight WW.

Rippalloy may be a little better than WW?

No lead bullet is adequate for DG. If it is hard enough for reliable bone penetration, then it is too brittle and runs the risk of "crumbling."

If it is soft enough to not be brittle, then it expands too much at true DGR velocity and SD.
SD drives expansion.

Cast lead bullets in a DGR is just another stunt. Your future will be stunted if you try it too often. Not a Giant thing to do.

The real solid for a DGR is the .395/330-grain S&H brass FN that goes 2800 fps into the same medium and barely deforms at all. That's a "Power Belt" muzzleloader pill also pictured above, and it is not what Thor wore around his waist when hammering giants.

quote:

Cast lead bullets in a DGR is just another stunt. Your future will be stunted if you try it too often. Not a Giant thing to do.

Poetry...

Mad Mac,
Notice I identified the S&H (Superpenetrating & Helpful for Giants) projectile above?

The magic slayer of IWB's....the 395 Club Should Expand it's memebership it appears to be the best medicine for most every job.

I have used and casted wheel wieght bullets since 1987 and have never had one shatter and fail to do nothing but a paerfect job from the 45 Colt or the 475 Linebaugh. I haave owned a 475 Linebaugh since 1988 as I comissioned the very first one tha Hamilton Bowen built in that caliber. I am also the first person to take a Moose and shoot a an Artic Grizzly wwith the 475.



All acomplished with pure wheel wieghts and nothing added, just water quenched out of the mold. I have shot rocks with them and none of the recovered bullet shatter at all.

Now a hard casrt bullet of any description is goin to degrade in heavy bone. I would assume that a Bull Elephants head would qualify as a lot of bone. If I were going after Elephant with one of my handgun, I would use a special bullet made by Majicef or at least a punch bullet, Not a cast.

Otto Candice has taken a LOT of Elephant with both a rifle and a handgun but not with straight caswt bullets. In the 475 he used cut down TB Sledge hammer solid and got 40 inchs of penetration on a frontal brain shot on a Bull Elepahnt. With the 500 Maximum he had a special steel tip made and a speccial mold to pour wheel wight hard cast into the steel tip and this worked to perfection. Keep in mind this was accomplished years before the punch bullets were a reality.
I love pure wheel wieghts cast and mold dropped into a bucket of water to quench, but not on an Elephant unlees it is an emergence. I know that it has been done and can be done, but it leaves a bit more to chance than I would like

This really amuses me with experts citing the increased hardness of 30:1 metal over 20:1 metal? That statement alone nullifies any facts stated by the experts with all that "experience". The very idea of cast bullets "blowing up on the shoulder of deer" makes me want to vomit. Some people lack even the most basic components of common sense. That having been said I like the .45-70/90 for a lot of things but cannot be compaired realistically to the .450/.400. Dr.C

So here we go(Rusty). I started reloading with 4 different brands of brass, so I decided to group them by weight. The first three were almost indistinguishable; R-P, F-C(some nickel) and Buffalo Bore's Lever Mag. The Levermag's did appear to have a magnum rifle primer pocket, though the CCI200 worked fine. The forth was the W-W Winchester's. While the first three averaged between 192-195, the W-W were 161-162. This will come into play later.

I was able to reach 2200fps with nickel F-C brass with 58 grains H322 MAX. Tried 59 grains at well over 2200 and got sticky extraction, best would be 57-58 for 2150 to 2200. With the W-W, I got 2160 with 59 grains and 2200 +or- (started loosing light so the chrono wasn't reading every shot) with 60 grains. Compression was heavy with the F-C brass, but even with one extra grain of powder, the W-W brass extracted normal and powder fill height was slightly less. It sized and crimped easier as well. Jeff Q. used Starline brass but I'm not sure where they fit in with weight and wall thickness. The R-P and Levermag brass acted slightly better then the Federal's did, but not enough to really make a difference. I ran out of Reloader 7, but I was able to get 2200 fps with the GS Custom 400HVFN's before I quit. I think the pressure was slightly less, but neither load harmed the primers at all, or showed substantial case head expansion (except the F-C/59gr load).

All were loaded to 2.6" OAL with brass right at 2.1". Recoil was too bad for a bare bones Marlin, though the XLR sports a nice Pacmayer Decelerator pad. I will say that the trigger guard gets a little sharper at that speed! I'm going to pick-up some H335 and 4198 for trial the next time I get a chance and I'll report more then.

I did get a chance to build a quick bullet box out of some dry, old(from a 50+ year old house) 2X6's. Some were green wood from the deck and some were knotless yellow pine. Got some pic's of the box and bullets, of which got 29" at 2160 and 30+" at 2200-2240. More to follow next week.

Have had very good results on plains game using quenched bullets cast from wheel weights. Much better than monotype. However, South African Wheel weights are softer mix than Zimababwean Wheel Weights. I get a BHN of 22 with SA WW and 27 with quenched Zim WW.

TSJ.- Both Selous and Taylor used the .450 - but not the express. Selous mainly used a Gibbs No 1 .540grn bullet ahead of 75grns BP. He later moved onto the No 2. Same bullet ahead of 90grns.

The .450 No1 (designed for the maxim) that Taylor used was a 480grn bullet ahead of 85grns PB.

Rip is right on one thing- if you are building a .45 cal elephant rifle, it needs to drive a 500grn steel jacketed or brass monometal solid at over 2000fps or a 450grn bullet at 2200fps.

Tests conducted on cow elephants or dead elephants are not relevant to discussions on bullet penetration on live bulls! Ask Art Alphin!

quote:

Originally posted by adrook:
One of my go-to loads for my Guide Gun is a 405gr Cast Performance hardcast over 50.0gr of H322. I shot a bear with this load a couple of years ago. It chronos right at 1,800fps and I would not want to go any hotter although John Taffin has loaded it as hot as 52.0gr which he says is absolute Max in a lever gun.

I cannot see how it is possible to safely get an additional 600fps using what is basically the same weight bullet and the same powder I don't care how slippery the bullet is or how many Tubbs bullets have been sent down the barrel.

I don't understand this pretending that the 45-70 is a DGR and a stopper. It never has been and it isn't. I also have a .450 Dakota and a .375 and the 45-70 isn't even in the same ballpark with either of them.

If I had to choose one rifle (that I currently own) to do any and all my hunting anywhere in the world, it would be my .375 H&H. I fail to see how it is above and beyond the .45-70 as a stopper though. I've used both cartridges with great results and I think each of them will do the job if you do yours and I do mine. When using solids though, I've found that the .45-70 creates a significantly larger wound channel than the .375 does. It does penetrate surprisingly well too despite not reaching the mythical 2300-2400 fps(whatever it is). I don't know why exactly, just like I don't know exactly why the big bore handguns seem to kill better than they should. It's not any kind of magic, it just works.

Maybe all it really takes is a good bullet and someone who can place it right!

I'm not trying to be an a-hole or keep an argument going at all. There are many hard hitting cartridges out there that are surely much better than the .45-70(like your .450 Dakota) but I don't see how the .375 H&H is one of them. I've never participated in any of the .45-70 wars and don't want to get into one now. The .45-70 vs the .470 Mbogo or .500 A2 arguments are a waste of time all together and apples to oranges....but comparing the attributes of the .375 H&H and .450/.400 to the .45-70 is interesting to me but I'm still kinda new to this fightin' over the computer stuff!

Does anyone else hold a caliber's TKO factor in high regard anymore or is that too old and outdated?

Sorry for my part in changing the original direction of this thread.

Extremist,
Thanks for your load information. The bullets that you pictured, who manufactures them and I presume they weigh 400 grains?

Guess I'll have to dust off that 1895 Marlin taking a nap in the back of the gun safe and go to the range.

I was not aware that there was a difference in large rifle primer pockets. Thanks.

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
I started reloading with 4 different brands of brass, so I decided to group them by weight. The first three were almost indistinguishable; R-P, F-C(some nickel) and Buffalo Bore's Lever Mag. The Levermag's did appear to have a magnum rifle primer pocket, though the CCI200 worked fine.

Any Buffalo Bore 45-70 brass made since about 2002 will have a doubly recessed small rifle primer pocket designed to accommodate the CCI No. 41 military spec primer. All Buffalo Bore 45-70 brass is made by Starline.

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
I was able to reach 2200fps with nickel F-C brass with 58 grains H322 MAX. Tried 59 grains at well over 2200 and got sticky extraction, best would be 57-58 for 2150 to 2200. With the W-W, I got 2160 with 59 grains and 2200 +or- (started loosing light so the chrono wasn't reading every shot) with 60 grains. Compression was heavy with the F-C brass, but even with one extra grain of powder, the W-W brass extracted normal and powder fill height was slightly less. It sized and crimped easier as well.

All of these loads listed are over the safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895XLR. They are all likely over 50,000 CUP. The safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 45-70 rifle is 40,000 CUP. The loads listed here by Extremist458 (appropriate handle for sure) will prematurely dismantle a Marlin 1895 over its lifetime. Mic McPherson has stated that sticky extraction may not show up in extreme overloads in the Marlin 1895 45-70; that it does show in the higher end of these loads shown above is a clear indication that they are dangerous. Both the GS and Punch Bullets have a longer bearing surface and are harder than the cup and core bullet used by Hodgdon to arrive at its 55 grain maximum load of H322 for a 400 grain bullet in the 45-70. It makes little difference that the loads listed above have a 2.6" COAL as the base of the bullet is still probably below that of the Hodgdon loads.

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
Jeff Q. used Starline brass but I'm not sure where they fit in with weight and wall thickness. The R-P and Levermag brass acted slightly better then the Federal's did, but not enough to really make a difference. I ran out of Reloader 7, but I was able to get 2200 fps with the GS Custom 400HVFN's before I quit. I think the pressure was slightly less, but neither load harmed the primers at all, or showed substantial case head expansion (except the F-C/59gr load).

All were loaded to 2.6" OAL with brass right at 2.1". Recoil was too bad for a bare bones Marlin, though the XLR sports a nice Pacmayer Decelerator pad. I will say that the trigger guard gets a little sharper at that speed! I'm going to pick-up some H335 and 4198 for trial the next time I get a chance and I'll report more then.

Starline brass is the heaviest, thickest and has the least case capacity of all available 45-70 brass. I guess I will challenge the above listed loads as there is no way the person who developed them knows they are safe. They were developed contrary to any known load data and cannot be verified to not be dangerous.

quote:

Originally posted by doccash:
This really amuses me with experts citing the increased hardness of 30:1 metal over 20:1 metal? That statement alone nullifies any facts stated by the experts with all that "experience". The very idea of cast bullets "blowing up on the shoulder of deer" makes me want to vomit. Some people lack even the most basic components of common sense. That having been said I like the .45-70/90 for a lot of things but cannot be compaired realistically to the .450/.400. Dr.C

Hey Doccash,

I'm the one who was confused and made the stupid comment referred to above. I never claimed to be a cast bullet or 45/40, 45-110 etc expert, that's why I was asking questions.

On the other hand I am the only one on this thread to have shot an elephant with a hard cast bullet at 45/70 velocity.

JPK