quote:

"Them, they were giants," but those 450 BPE's and later NFBP's with the flyweight 365-grainers were the small bores of those Giants.
Plains game rifles only! Giants didn't get giant through reckless underarmament, nor did they have any need to stunt about. They used much bigger balls for DG and gladly got rid of those for the long and heavy bullets and greater powder charges of the True Nitro Express cartridges, allowing 2100 fps with SD > 0.300, a recipe for success with even such small bores as the 450's. No need to live in the past if you have a Giant future.

Well Rip, you are 100% dead WRONG!
African rifles and cartridges page 69 Taylor says " I killed elephant, rhino and buffalo with the 365 grn hardened lead bullet, and lion with the soft solid of the same weight" Maybe taylor considers buff-ele plains game huh? " I was very fond of this little rifle ( hammerless H&H double) and only sold it because the stock was to straight for me" " The rifle did great work for me, and was a real killer"
Yeah, sounds like a terrible working rig to me.
And yes that is the 450 BPE Taylor is talking about, and Selous mentions his 450 BPE in his books, as well as Taylor mentioning it in the same section of African rifles&cartridges.
Look it up for yourself.

quote:

Originally posted by JPK:
Hey FOOBAR,

The 450/400 shoots either .408" or .411" bullets!

The 45/70, 45?, 458? all shoot .458" bullets.

There is a hell of alot difference between a 400gr .408" bullet and a 400gr .458" bullet!!!

JPK

LOL

Foobar, you know that the 450/400 is a .411 bullet, right, not .45x ??

and then, yeah, bullet WEIGHT assuming same construction, drives the conversation ..

.27x aint .33x ...

and the same bullet WEIGHT at the same VEL, with the same construction, the 450/400 will out penetrate the 45/70, under standard operating ranges.

its really that simple

and, if you don't understand why SD is important, then maybe the 45/70 IS a big bore to you

quote:

Originally posted by FOOBAR:

Pick the right bullet and it will penetrate, pick the wrong bullet and it will become a 50 cent piece depending on the medium it goes into...I and others make 50 cent pieces all the time on my steel plates.

Always wondered where that rap music guy, Fifty Cent, got his name. Who would have ever thought he was a member here on AR.

TSJ,
We all know that Taylor did some things that were wrong, just plain wrong.

Jim,

Ludicrous is also a member here. Is that how he spells his name, or is there an "e-bonic" spelling?

Ludicris Contemplates 45-70 -vs- 450-400 for his upcoming Safari..??

Rip

It is "Fiddy" to his friends.

Fifty Cent, at his symposium entitled "Sectional Density Variations in Comparative Ballistic Mediums: Momentum, Acceleration and Teminal Velocity From a Hyrdodynamic Perspective - Word Up"

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Ludicris Contemplates 45-70 -vs- 450-400 for his upcoming Safari..??

Looks like he is leaning toward the 450/400NE3".
First smart decision he ever made!
He has an extended pinky finger in his mouth, but that is not a prerequisite for smart, just a weak Dr. Evil impersonation. Always puttin' on airs. Retards for Obama poster boy.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim Manion:
Rip

It is "Fiddy" to his friends.

Fifty Cent, at his symposium entitled "Sectional Density Variations in Comparative Ballistic Mediums: Momentum, Acceleration and Teminal Velocity From a Hyrdodynamic Perspective - Word Up"

That is the funniest shit ever!!!

"Fiddy" should know best! Hell, he's been shot by every cartridge out there! If the .45-70 and .450/.400 won't keep ol' "fiddy" down then maybe neither should be held too high in regards, at least not in "homie-stoppin" power! Please, no offence to anyone....but that one had me laughing to the point of tears!!!! PEACE!

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:
Ludicris Contemplates 45-70 -vs- 450-400 for his upcoming Safari..??

Looks like he is leaning toward the 450/400NE3".
First smart decision he ever made!
He has an extended pinky finger in his mouth, but that is not a prerequisite for smart, just a weak Dr. Evil impersonation. Always puttin' on airs. Retards for Obama poster boy.

Ludicris might use the .450/.400....but ONLY if his infamous gat referred to as da "NINE" is out being gold plated and his AK47 has been confiscated by the popo's!!!!

I wonder if it'll be fiddy or ludicris who'll be Obama's VP? That's a perty tuff'un....?

Jackfish, do yourself a favor and rethink what you wrote. We'll start with the simple fact that the Buffalo bore brass I have uses large magnum rifle primers, and I can post a picture if need be, I did weight them and they are the same as the Federal and Remington brass I have. I've been doing this for a while, so things might be different now, but I'm only posting what I have.

If you question my pressures, then go knock on Jeff Quinn's door and start preaching to him. He got higher velocity then I did, and with only an 18" barrel. I don't have a way of pressure testing the loads I was shooting, which is one of the reasons I was so reluctant to even list 'em, but you guys just had to push. I will have them tested for pressures shortly. As always, this is what I load and I never told anyone they should do the same. It's my gun and it works for me, you do what you want. Another point in this matter is the primers and case head expansion. As I posted before, primers were fine and the difference between and known starting load and my load was only .001" more expansion. Again, this was not the base, just above the rim where 50,000+psi would have extruded a portion into the extractor recess and expanded the base(I just measured it, zero difference between factory loads and mine), but rather 1/4"-3/8" above the rim where the diameter was the largest. The sticky extraction was only on one round, and I backed off the charge and never had another issue at all. This could have been from the case being a tad too long beforehand; my mistake. I will have them tested and post the results then.

The bearing surface issue is obviously beside you. As you can see in the picture, the Belt Mountain Punch Bullets http://beltmountain.com/punch.htm (for Rusty) use a series of driving bands that reduce pressure. I understand that the brass material is harder (40BH vs 20-30 for lead, and near the same as gilding metal jackets), the driving band style allows the material to displace around the rifling, rather then get squished inwards. Just like Barnes Triple Shock's, but on a much grander scale. Why am I telling you this, ask Macifej why he builds his bullets that way. Never the less, brass and bronze alloys don't "Stick" as much to steel, and so are more slippery then jacket material and lead, that's why they make bushings and valve guides in your car engine out of it. Now when it comes down to the GS Customs, you are really off course there. They drive easier then about anything else out there. You can actually (not that I recommend it) drive one down the bore with a brass rod. Don't even attempt it with any other bullet. Check out his website, where he did just that. By the way, Gerard Schultz himself gave me that load.

Man, I can hardly wait till my 500 Jeffery is finished so's I can argy with those 50-70 owners about which is best for da buffs.

I have a 336 marlin in 25/35 imp that I put a Oehler strain gauge on when doing some load work for it. I found the lever sticking to be the ticket for pressure before I got close to a high pressure reading on the gauge. Switching to 375 win brass from 30-30 brass would let me get a little more vel/pressure before any sticking. I stayed with the 30-30 brass in the end because of it being easy to get and just keep the pressures in the 38,000 PSI range.

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
Jackfish, do yourself a favor and rethink what you wrote. We'll start with the simple fact that the Buffalo bore brass I have uses large magnum rifle primers...

First, thank you for your reasoned response.

Certainly the Buffalo Bore brass you have could predate 2002 and Tim Sundle's change to his new doubly recessed small rifle primer pocket brass he designed and Starline produces. However, if there are large rifle primer pockets in the brass you have, the primer pocket doesn't care if you stick a standard Large Rifle primer, a Magnum Large Rifle primer or a Benchrest Large Rifle primer in it.

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
If you question my pressures, then go knock on Jeff Quinn's door and start preaching to him. He got higher velocity then I did, and with only an 18" barrel. I don't have a way of pressure testing the loads I was shooting, which is one of the reasons I was so reluctant to even list 'em, but you guys just had to push. I will have them tested for pressures shortly. As always, this is what I load and I never told anyone they should do the same. It's my gun and it works for me, you do what you want.

I do question your pressures and I don't have to take it up with Jeff Quinn. He is not posting here. In addition, you are not even using Jeff Quinn's loads. He used AA2460 and you are using H322. I am correct in my contention that you have not demonstrated your loads are safe. I will do what I want, and that is alerting people to the dangerous and unverified load information that has been posted.

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
Another point in this matter is the primers and case head expansion. As I posted before, primers were fine and the difference between and known starting load and my load was only .001" more expansion. Again, this was not the base, just above the rim where 50,000+ psi would have extruded a portion into the extractor recess and expanded the base (I just measured it, zero difference between factory loads and mine), but rather 1/4"-3/8" above the rim where the diameter was the largest. The sticky extraction was only on one round, and I backed off the charge and never had another issue at all. This could have been from the case being a tad too long beforehand; my mistake. I will have them tested and post the results then.

Your points are well taken but do not stand up. Changes in primers that may indicate excessive pressure may not occur until over 70,000 psi is reached which makes such an indicator unreliable even in bolt action rifles. The safe operating pressure of the Marlin 1895 45-70 is 40,000 CUP or approximately between 42,000 and 45,000 psi. Hence, primer condition cannot ever be expected to reliably indicate excessive pressure in the Marlin 1895 45-70. As much as HotCor defends measuring case head or pressure ring expansion as a reliable determinant of safe loads, there is just too much in the literature to show otherwise. Using pressure testing equipment, Lyman found in several instances that case measurements indicating a load was above maximum pressure was as much as 10,000 psi below maximum, while in other instances where case measurements indicated a load was below maximum pressure and should be safe they were actually sometimes more than 10,000 psi above maximum.

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
The bearing surface issue is obviously beside you. As you can see in the picture, the Belt Mountain Punch Bullets http://beltmountain.com/punch.htm (for Rusty) use a series of driving bands that reduce pressure. I understand that the brass material is harder (40BH vs 20-30 for lead, and near the same as gilding metal jackets), the driving band style allows the material to displace around the rifling, rather then get squished inwards. Just like Barnes Triple Shock's, but on a much grander scale. Why am I telling you this, ask Macifej why he builds his bullets that way. Never the less, brass and bronze alloys don't "Stick" as much to steel, and so are more slippery then jacket material and lead, that's why they make bushings and valve guides in your car engine out of it. Now when it comes down to the GS Customs, you are really off course there. They drive easier then about anything else out there. You can actually (not that I recommend it) drive one down the bore with a brass rod. Don't even attempt it with any other bullet. Check out his website, where he did just that. By the way, Gerard Schultz himself gave me that load.

Be all that as it may. You still have no way of knowing your loads are safe. You are not using published load data or a means of verifying the loads are safe. I don't see the loads developed by these bullet companies achieving 11% (your loads) or 18%+ (Paco's and Jeff Quinn's loads) more velocity than loads for standard cup/core bullets of the same weight. Even if you did get your load from Gerard, his own website does not support such a load as it shows the 305 grain GS FN bullet being driven in the 45-70 at most 2400 fps at 40,000 psi. Hodgdon pressure tested data shows a 300 grain cup/core bullet driven 2424 fps at 40,000 CUP in a 24" barrel. None of the loads GS shows push their bullets 11-18%+ faster than what can be achieved with a standard bullet. They are all in the 3-6% range.

Until you can verify the safety of the loads I will continue to warn people about them. Thanks.

jackfish,
Good work. Doin' good ain't got no end, eh?