I was just looking on the Hornandy web site and was surprised to see how close the ballistics are on these cartridges. Both calibers list 400grs at 2050fps. What surprised me was the 45/70 drops 27" at 300yds and the 450/400 drops 33" at 300yds.

I am getting ready to have a new 1885 single shot built and was considering the 45/70 and 450/400. We can hunt in Mississippi's primitive weapons season with 45/70's and other similar cartridges. I was sure I wanted a 450/400 but now want to study this a little more.

Any input?

Jeff

Check the web site again..... the 45/70 load is a 325 gr (not 400) with some type of ballistic tip.

The 450/400 load of 400 grs at 2050 fps is very mild and historically correct.

Check the Norma web site for their PH loads. They list the 450/400 with a 450 gr. load @ 2150 fps.

You'll have fun with either one

marshmellow vs bullet

quote:

Originally posted by AzGuy:
Check the web site again..... the 45/70 load is a 325 gr (not 400) with some type of ballistic tip.

The 450/400 load of 400 grs at 2050 fps is very mild and historically correct.

Check the Norma web site for their PH loads. They list the 450/400 with a 450 gr. load @ 2150 fps.

You'll have fun with either one

Yep, I looked at the chart wrong.

Depends what you want to hunt! For Africa the .450/400 is adequate for dangerous game. the .45-70 is marginal and not legal in many areas. (you need to drive a 450grn bullet at 2150fps to have a .45 cal bullet with enough seconal density to penetrate adequately).

If you are hunting in North America then .45-70 is alot more versitile with decent factory ammo in a wide range of loadings

obviously not a factory loading, but I've been able to push the Belt Mt. Punch bullet (400gr.) to around 2300 fps in my 24" Marlin XLR, for 4700 ft./lbs. of energy (lapped barrel with David Tubbs Final Finish bullets). Mr. Jeff Quinn of Gunblast.com was able to get 2248 fps out of his custom 18" Marlin Guide gun, but velocity was erratic. I believe the longer barrel of my XLR burns more of the powder, and so doesn't suffer his fate. This was done with a "Healthy dose" of H322. Grizzly Cartridges offers them in a factory load of 2050fps and 3780 foot pounds, but for $111 a box of 20. I could possibly push it a little further, but not necessary. I would be willing to put that load against anything else out there. Wet newspaper testing has been almost more fun that I can handle. I haven't been able to stop it yet, at least until I build up enough surplus; 48"+ and still going. Not cheap but certainly better then factory 450/400 loads.

Also, one would do well with Randy Garrett's Hammerhead ammo. 420gr @ 1850, 540gr @ 1550 (record breaking penetration and damage). Or Buffalo Bore's 430's @ 1925 (3537 ft/lbs.) or 300's @ 2350 (3678 ft/lbs.). I've also had great performance from Bear Tooth Bullets 525gr. Pile driver over 53 grains of H4895 for 1850fps. Hope that helps.

I will mostly use the gun for whitetail deer hunting in the primitive weapon season and maybe a future black bear hunt.

Another consideration is that I don't want to have to handload.

Good info from Extremist. If you're wanting one of the cartridges similar to the 45-70, you could possibly go for something longer if the action would handle it, ala 45-90, etc.

If you are not hunting Africa and specifically Ele or buff, then there is no question that the .45-70 is the better choice.

quote:

but I've been able to push the Belt Mt. Punch bullet (400gr.) to around 2300 fps in my 24" Marlin XLR

WOW, Extremist! You have fired these round over a chronograph, out of your rifle?

Who needs a 458 Winny with those figures.

I have, but my chrono is no more. I haven't clocked any in the last year, but I was getting 2300 when I first worked up the load. I got the idea from GunBlast.com's Jeff Quinn. I'll link the article, and I'm sure you'll appreciate his extensive research and experience with this old favorite. Actually, two different articles were written at the same time, unbeknownst to the authers.
http://www.gunblast.com/BeltMtn_PunchBullet.htm

I feel the reason for the extra velocity is the bullet. It's slick at high speeds, impresses easily (in the rifling) and doesn't obturate as much as even hardened lead; the design is spectacular. Expensive, but very worth-while. I use 350gr. Berry or Rainier bullets over 54 grains Reloader 7 (still very stiff load, around 40,000psi) for general shooting, and BTB PileDriver/BM Punch bullets for big game work. Like always, work up the load and you'll do fine.

I also forgot to mention one of my other favorites, GS Custom 400 HVFN bullets. Start with 52 grains of Reloader 7 and you can easily get 2200+. These are great for deer sized game, as they upset slightly and do more damage then the Punch bullets. I've seen as much as 5/8" expansion roughly and have still gotten complete pass throughs. At longer ranges, they don't flatten as much and so compensate for the velocity loss, still getting full penitration. They are Swiss screw machined solid copper, usually moly coated and like being loaded right up to the rifling, getting 1 MOA accuracy (good for a levergun .45-70).
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/03fn.html
The Punch bullets on the other hand can be a little sensitive to bore diameter. You get good velocity with a .460 bore, but .458-.4585 is the sweet spot for 'em. I think the key for me was the 24" barrel, allowing a more complete powder burn, and the Tubbs Final Finish bore polishing bullets. They don't sell the .458's at Cabelas, but Midwayusa has 'em for a good price (50). I only used 5 of each grit (25) and was able to polish both of my .45-70's. This is recomended for a bore in decent condition. Sorry for the novel, but hope it helps.

Rusty, I agree. Who needs anything bigger when you can have the fast handling and cycling of a levergun. Low PSI meens easy extraction, you don't have to take your eyes off the target and magazine capacity can be as high as 9. Truely one of the most versatile caliber/gun combinations.

Having used both I can assure you their is no comparison, the 450-400 wins hands down by a mile of two...To start with the Hornady ammo is weak...My regulation load in my Searcy 450-400 gets 2200 FPS with a 400 gr. bullet,

Too many 45-70 afficiandos keep trying to make it into something it is not and was never ment to be IMO...Its a great short range deer rifle and a pi$$ poor elk rifle.

Please take no offence, but a 400 grain bullet from a 450-400 at 2200fps or a 45-70 matter not. The pressures might be slightly less in the 450-400, but what is too gain? If it's a modern single shot with any inhearint strength, then it shouldn't even notice 40,000psi. I can understand your perspective, truely, but just because it was limited to 27,000psi before, doesn't mean the guns it's now chambered in should be as well. Many studies have been conducted over this subject and the conclusions have proven the M1895 to handle 43-45K without breaking a sweat. In the case of the W1886, 50K+ is not an issue.

I know manufacturers cannot load to modern pressures because of the chance someone will stoke an antique with it, but that's the beauty of reloading. If you don't reload, then Buffalo Bore, Garrett Cartridges, Hornady, Ten-X, Cor-Bon, Grizzly, Remington, Winchester and Federal (and a few others) all offer great factory loads for about any situation (21,000-35,000 psi). If it's deer you seek, then BB's 300 grain speer UniCore at 2350 would be great, or Hornday's Leverevolutions, or Cor-Bon's Barnes 300 X-bullet. They are less expensive then the 450-400 and much more commen.

On par with what Rusty and I were getting at before is why should I use a 458WM (or 450-400) when I can use a 45-70? I can see that the WM will push a 500 grain bullet the same speed a 45-70 can push a 400, but we are talking Elk and such, and with 15,000psi less! If you compare to what the buffalo hunters were using before the turn of the last century(45-90 through 45-120), the modern 45-70 is more then adiquate for any North American big game, and it is often loaded light for smaller game. Hornady states the 450-400 is "...an all-around African cartridge" and "the ideal ammo for hippo, buffalo and other thick-skinned game.", with the 45-70 shooting both heavier and lighter loads, doesn't that put it at least in the same catagory? My question is what can the 450-400 do that the 45-70 can't?

If you talk to most folks who have used one, they would say it's too big for deer hunting (unless loaded down a bit) and about perfect for Bear. To this I would trust my life. I know I'm turning into one of those "Band of 45-70ers", afficiandos you say, but I think I'm likin' it. It's an inexpensive step into the big bores without many of the down sides like severe recoil and hard to handle big bolt actions, or hard to find ammo. It's more versitile and controlable then the others, and it carries that classic air. There is a reason it has servived over 135 years.

quote:

Originally posted by Ganyana:
If you are not hunting Africa and specifically Ele or buff, then there is no question that the .45-70 is the better choice.

Great to see someone support the venerable 45/70.(especially one who knows what he's talking about!!) Unlike many idiots on this forum who write it off as useless for anything.

Extremist,
Could you tell us what your load for Mtn. Belt 400 grain bullet at 2300 FPS? Powder/Primer?

quote:

Originally posted by Extremist458:
Please take no offence, but a 400 grain bullet from a 450-400 at 2200fps or a 45-70 matter not.

other than SD and pressure, and making a silk purse out of a sow's ear, you are correct.


a .411 400 gr bullet has an sd of .338
a .458 400gr bullet has an sd of .272

one is good for african game
one is good for thin skinned game

if you want to COMPARE them, as a basis for penetration, assuming the same bullet contruction

a 400gr .458 bullet compares to a 322 gr .411 bullet, sd of .272 ... NOT good for heavy game


or a 400 gr .411 bullet compares to, in terms of SD, a 496 gr .458 bullet.

ME means jack SQUAT in this matter

So, if you want to compare apples to apples, either compare the 400 gr 458 with a heavy loaded 444 marlin OR compare the 400gr .411 with the 500gr .458.

that's all that can be said about it...

Point taken.

My reference was for North American game. And if Africa was involved, dangerous game, the many heavier loads would work well. In the case of the Punch bullet (H322 and CCI 200 primers Rusty) it has proven it can penetrate as far, if not farther then any loading in the 450-400, while doing more damage. From the article I linked earlier: "...because at a modest 1650 fps with a load of 40 grains of ReL #7 at around 26,000 psi... I couldn’t keep them inside 60 inches of wet phone books with 1/4 inch plywood sheets every 20 inches.

Jeffeosso, I respect your opinion more then most, and I know you are right. What you quoted does sound off the subject of comparison, but I'm just trying to make a point. So many people downplay the 45-70 to near extinction status that it starts to bother us who know it's versitility. Randy Garrett considers it to be the "deepest penetrating of the various 458 calibers" http://www.garrettcartridges.com/Penetration.htm I'm not trying to make magic cartridges that does it all, but certainly holds it's own against most big bores. "If I could own only one big game rifle, it would certainly be a 45-70 lever-gun." -Randy Garrett Please take the time to read this one: http://www.garrettcartridges.com/050100.asp Vince Lupo has taken Africa's Big Six with a Marlin Guide gun and 540 grain Hammerheads at only 1550fps!

We know it works on dangerous game, and on thin-skinned game, so what in Mississippi would the 45-70 not handle for jawheeler, or anywhere for that matter? If pressure is the issue, then how low does it need to be and why? How much less pressure is Hornady's 450-400 load then the 45-70?

Hey Extremest 458,
listen to those who know what they are talking about. ie: Read Ganyana's posts above. Thers's probably only one other contributor to this forum who has shot as much game ( dangerous or otherwise ) as he has!!
There is absolutely NO substitute for experience. There are a lot of pretenders around.

Extremist,
Randy Garrett has a product to sell, and that leads him to make some "interesting" statements.. I'll back that up in the link below

Pichon,
Here's a GREAT link for you, if you like EXPERIENCE

http://www.470mbogo.com/PenetrationComparison.html

you guys know that an sd of .250 is considered "good" for a deer/elk rifle... and .300+ is "good" for an african bigbore ...


Pichon,
With all due respect to G, he ACTUALLY knows how to hunt dangerous game and uses a 9,3 as his preferred round. A true sportsman and hunter. In his hands, a 30-06 is a DGR

And like any profound expert, one must take their POV into account. If he feels a 45/70 will work, he doesn't mean in any yayhoo's hands, who MIGHT hit the buffalo's shoulder. He means in the hands of a cool headed hunter, in good circumstance, the 45/70 is okay for good shot placement.

At $1000 a day, with dangerous animals abounding, and one is specifically TROPY hunting,having a MARGINAL gun in my hands, tracking a wounded animal for 2 days(at 1000/pay) and/or paying the $2500 trophy fee for a lost animal, or, worse still, someone gets hurts because a DAMN FOOL wanted to prove the 45/70 was "good enough" .. well, i find that to be wasteful and dangerous.

Jeffeosso,
buggered if I know how hunting dangerous game in Africa at $1000 per day got into this discussion. Jawheeler said he wanted a calibre for hunting mostly whitetail deer in the primitive weapon season, in MISSISSIPPI.
Ganyana replied that for "North America" he would go for the 45/70, to which I replied that I would back his advice and experience.
Somehow "damn fools" wounding dangerous game and endangering people's lives got into the equation. Are you sure you are on the right thread?

If I were going to build a single shot Bruwning, Ruger, or otherwise I'd go with the .450/.400 because it just seems at home in such rifles. I like the .45-70 when chambered in leverguns, T/C's, and the BFR.

As far as which is more effective on large and/or dangerous game, I doubt any beast would know the difference if both are loaded properly with an appropriate bullet for the job at hand. I don't have any experience personally with the .450/.400 but have used the .45-70 for years with great results. I think people go way too far to extremes when discussing the .45-70, both pro and con. Some make it out to be the greatest penetrating, mind blowing, be-all/end-all stopper there is while others think it's heaviest loads will barely draw blood on a buffalo! As is usually the case the best answer lies somewhere in between. There are definately harder hitting and deeper penetrating cartridges for heavy thick skinned game BUT you'll pay more for them in price, gun weight, and recoil while having slower follow up shots and probably less rounds in your magazine. Of course I wouldn't be building a .500 A2 if I thought the .45-70 was the best thing out there. A heavily loaded .45-70 levergun makes a good big game rifle for short range shooting and has comparatively light recoil and gun weight.

As long as both cartridges are loaded with a GOOD SOLID BULLET OF SIMILAR SD, I think that the TKO formula developed by John "Pondoro" Taylor is the most reasonable and accurate basis on which to judge big bore cartridge effectiveness and that's the formula I always turn to, to make comparative judgements between any cartridges in question. When we compare the TKO values for the .45-70 540 gr Garrett load @ 1550 fps that all .45-70 lovers point to as their dangerous game load (including me)......and a .411" 400 gr solid @ 2200 fps that's representative of a fairly stiff .450/.400 dgr load, we find that the difference is negledgable. TKO = about 54 for the .45-70 Garrett and about 51 for the .450/.400 with the load previously described. To be honest, I don't know how closely this represents their effectiveness on big game but it seems fair to me.

The 540 gr Garrett load (and other stout .45-70 loads with good hard bullets) has routinely been reported to shoot lengthwise through bison and other very large game. It also did a fine job in Vince Lupo's hands at dispatching rhino, hippo, and elephant. If Vince had been using a properly loaded .45/.400 and placed his shots the same way, I'd bet he would have gotten the same results. I've always felt that a heavy loaded .45-70 with good bullets is in the same league as the slower .40's like the .411 KDF,.416 Taylor, and the .450/.400 when it comes to impact effect on game and that's mostly because they all have similar TKO values and I think Mr. John Taylor knew his sh@t!

I also believe that ALL of the +.40 cal cartridges I mentioned would make better short range stoppers WITH SOLIDS than the .375 H&H, simply because they will cut a larger wound channel.....and the TKO thing. The .375 makes up some ground with it's higher velocity when the comparisons are made with soft points. I may be wrong about this but I just don't feel that muzzle energy means as much as bullet weight, diameter of the bullet, and bullet construction. Most failures in the field occur from poor shot placement first and bullet failure second.

I don't think there's much to choose from between the .45-70 and .450/.400 in terms of effectiveness. They are both fine big game cartridges at moderate ranges and with good bullets. I believe both will dispatch anything you hit with good shooting but neither would be MY first choice if going to Africa for buff, hippo, or ele but I wouldn't criticize anyone who chose one either.

A Browning 1885 or Ruger No.1 in .450/.400 would be "CLASS PERSONIFIED"!!!!

I HOPE TO GOD THE OLD .45-70 DEBATES DON'T START UP AGAIN!! I'll bet half the people posting here are already getting headaches!

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:
Extremist,
Randy Garrett has a product to sell, and that leads him to make some "interesting" statements.. I'll back that up in the link below

Pichon,
Here's a GREAT link for you, if you like EXPERIENCE

http://www.470mbogo.com/PenetrationComparison.html

you guys know that an sd of .250 is considered "good" for a deer/elk rifle... and .300+ is "good" for an african bigbore ...


Pichon,
With all due respect to G, he ACTUALLY knows how to hunt dangerous game and uses a 9,3 as his preferred round. A true sportsman and hunter. In his hands, a 30-06 is a DGR

And like any profound expert, one must take their POV into account. If he feels a 45/70 will work, he doesn't mean in any yayhoo's hands, who MIGHT hit the buffalo's shoulder. He means in the hands of a cool headed hunter, in good circumstance, the 45/70 is okay for good shot placement.

At $1000 a day, with dangerous animals abounding, and one is specifically TROPY hunting,having a MARGINAL gun in my hands, tracking a wounded animal for 2 days(at 1000/pay) and/or paying the $2500 trophy fee for a lost animal, or, worse still, someone gets hurts because a DAMN FOOL wanted to prove the 45/70 was "good enough" .. well, i find that to be wasteful and dangerous.

Very well said.

I really like Garrett's ammo and use it in my .45-70's and my .44 Mag's too. HOWEVER....his ammo doesn't turn the .45-70 into a .458 Lott or .500 Nitro...or a .44 into a .500 S&W!! Garrett, Buffalo Bore, Corbon and Grizzly all make good ammo that helps to increase the performance of some of these older and slower cartridges and that's a good thing because it increases the usefulness of these cartridges for those who don't handload.

Some folks just take it a little too far but I can't blame a person for getting excited about their rifles and their ammo.

Garrett's 540 grainer does penetrate very well and probably is good enough for anything that walks in my very humble and unimportant opinion.....BUT IT DOES NOT PENETRATE BETTER THAN THE .458 LOTT and .460 WBY WHEN THEY'RE LOADED WITH GOOD SOLIDS!!!! I 've done too much testing of my own to believe that. But again, they do make good ammo that increases the .45-70's performance...no doubt!

I know I have conceded a few points in my posting, but don't take me as an easy target. I don't like being called one of those "DAMN FOOL(s)". I have been to Africa, and I have seen a few things in my day. I'm not an expert, but I know what I'm talking about, and I do my research before I open my mouth. Vince isn't a fool either, and he blew through both shoulder in his buff kill, one which would be considered a trophy to most. If you don't like marginal, use something bigger, but who, and how, does anyone know where that line lies? For years people killed dangerous game with what now you consider marginal. Look to the gauge bores, like the paradox 12 bore shooting a 730 grains slug, SD of .196, at 1200fps. It was used to kill everything from Tiger to Ele. All I've been trying to say is that the 45-70 is a good, all around cartridge for most anything huntable. If you like the really big stuff (yes, I have a few), then hunt with it, but it's not absolutely necessary for everyone. Lets face it, ANY rifle "in any yayhoo's hands" won't guarantee a kill.

All I'm asking for is a fair fight. I don't mind debate, as long as we keep it civilized, so I look forward to your response.

Now, adding more fuel to the fire, the absence of liquid in the 470Mbongo board testing might (still partially agreeing) be the contributing factor in the great difference of results. That being said, Garrett's results happen to coincide with our understanding of Hydrostatic shock (I'm a military Ballistician). The faster you try to move water, the less it wants to go. There are three distinct levels you'll notice right away. One, where shock first appears, around 1800fps for blunt bullets, higher for spitzers. Two, where the frequency of vibration disrupts the nerves system (assuming the absence of adrenalin), around 2200fps for blunts. And three, where water turns to glass, around 3500fps. I've seen this many times in experimenting with .22's to 50BMG's. If only solids were your target, velocity would be the key, but not so with liquids. Assuming equal efficiency in loading, the heavier a bullet you can push while bringing the velocity to 1800fps (give or take some with design), the better penetration gets. Why do you think arrows do so well at such a low velocity, even without broadheads? Take a look at what Myth Busters did in the episode on shooting in and under water. I know bullet construction has a lot to do with how they hold up, but I've shot Garretts Hammerheads into 55 gallon barrel of water, from the top, and it came out fine. How else would you explain the results of the Linebaugh seminar, or Jeff Quinn's 60"+ through wet phonebooks at only 1650fps?

All things aside, they work. With the right bullet, the 45-70 will penetrate through a buff or hippo, as any cartridge with the wrong bullet would likely not. Say what you like, but it has been done many times. Seeing it's other benefits, like faster follow-up shots, it makes a good argument for a DG rifle.

Extremist, I saw the reference to H322 in the article you pointed out. I didn't see the weight of the charge in that areticle or in your posts above. Maybe I missed it? How many grains of H322 do you use in the cartridges that you reload?

Gents,
It's your money, time, hunting, and choice. I have tried to answer, truthfully, why the 45/70 isn't as good as a 450/400 ... and, if loaded to the same levels, with these different SD bullets, it is patently not even close

Extremist, I don't lump you into "damn fools" .. ..

now, I am stepping out of this conversation, as it borders on "policitics AND religion" ..

jeffe

During my last trip to Africa, at the request of a 45/70 and hard cast bullet afficianado, I shot four flat nose 525gr cast bullets into a dead elephants head from the front, simulating a frontal brain shot.

Two were hard cast but not quench hardened and two were hard cast and quench hardened. I'm no cast bullet expert but the fellow who provided the bullets told me the two hard cast but unhardened were pretty hard compared to most so called "hard cast" bullets and the quench hardened amoungst the hardest cast bullets possible. Velocity was right at 1500fps, as requested by the bullet provider.

I also tested a 375H&H with a 300gr Woodleigh solid and used a 450gr North Fork flat nose solid at 2220fps, which is my go-to elephant load as a bench mark.

The North Fork penetrated too far to be found, well into the neck, and because of time constratins we stopped digging for it.

The 300gr solid from the 375H&H was found beyond the skull at the head neck juncture. IIRC, penetration was ~34". I have the tape and measurements on video, but I haven't received it yet.

The two hard but unquenched bullets failed to penetrate the ele's skull.

The two quench hardened bullets made it through the skull and were about 4" and 6" short of the 300gr 375 bullet. The bullets were damaged, with the fronts broken off, one more than the other, and pieces were recovered. I have the bullet remains but haven't weighed them. I'd guess one went 55% and the other 70% of original weight.

The space to shoot an elephant head dead on might seem large but in reality it isn't all that large given the desire to penetrate the brain. This bull had two through the brain to begin with, both from the side.

The test bullets were fired in the order described with the two side brain shots the "hunting shots" and the rest the "test shots". I can't isolate the results for successive bullets from the greater damage each encountered due to the prior bullets but the skull's integrity was reduced with each successive shot. Entry whole were kept a couple of inches apart on the frontal test shots.

My take on the experiment (with the caveat that extremely, extremely small sample sizes can lead to odd results):

1. The 375H&H with 300gr steel jacketed solids probably doesn't have the great penetration people credit it with.

2. The 458wm, loaded properly, penetrates far better and performs far better than people give it credit for. - here my sample size is maybe 50 bullets since I've tested quite a few 450wm loadings one many dead elephants and dug for the bullets used to kill the ele's in the first place.

3. Cast bullets of any description do not have the integrity required for reliable use in lieu of either steel jacketed solids or solid copper or other alloy mon metal bullets.

4. A 45/70 loaded to the specs used in this test is not a safe rifle to use for elephants, providing neither the penetration desired (insufficient energy?, bullet failure?...) nor the reliable results required (because the bullets fractured) but probably makes the grade for buff - but I would hate to risk an expensive safari trying to find out. More testing needed.

Also, over the span of all of my tests, flat nose bullets consistently out penetrate round nose bullets loaded to even slightly lower ME. Here my test have been between 500gr and 450gr .458" bullets out of my 458wm. I think the flat nose design of the cast bullets contributed to their penetration in this test, but because the fractured, I'm not sure.

JPK

JPK--I appreciate your willingness to test the penetration of the cast bullets on the elephant carcass. A good valid test, to be sure.

However, this test does not tell me that PROPER cast bullets are not suitable in this application. What it confirms for me is that cast bullets , quenched or not, containing antimonal alloys in the form of wheel weights DO NOT posses the structural integrity of a proper lead/tin alloy. The quenched wheel weights may be hard, but like glass, they are also brittle. This is because the antimony in the wheel weights reduces the shear strength of the alloy. Consequently, they also fragment and break up as you demonstrated and noted in your test. This is why I quit using any form of wheel weight alloy in my bullets years ago.

I am in the planning stages of a Cape Buffalo/elephant hunt for 2010. If I can pull it off, I will use a 520 grain bullet at 20-1 lead/tin for the buffalo, and the same bullet at 16-1 for the elephant in my 45-110. These bullets will stay together well beyond where your wheel weight test bullets came apart, and will give much better penetration.

Shrpsguy
How do you know JPKs bullets were from wheel weights?

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Extremist,
Could you tell us what your load for Mtn. Belt 400 grain bullet at 2300 FPS? Powder/Primer?

I think it has at least some BS in that load, or maybe pixie dust.

In a Ruger No.1 you could make the 450/400NE3" do 2400 fps with a 400-grain bullet if you wanted to.

jeffeosso, sorry I jump on your reply, and I apreciate your advice.

JPK, I concur with your findings on lead bullets. My finding (with the greatest depth of penetration) are with FN Punch bullets and GS custom solids.

sharpsguy, I would like to pursuade you to use a tougher bullet on Ele. I like lead for most hunting, but it's a little too soft for Ele skull when so many other good bullets abound. Even Randy G. decided on steel clad (previously TB Sledgehammers) in his Exiter line. When it comes to skulls, especially the unbelievably dense Rhino skull, you need a harder bullet. I will add that Vince did it twice with leads so they do work, I just would't take that chance.

RIP, come on now. If you read the links I provided before, you would know there's no BS involved. There are two reasons I havn't given a charge weight yet. One is because it's an untested load and I dont' want to get just anyone to try it without proper testing; my gun vs your gun and all. The other is because I don't remember. I used a chrono and started around 50 grains and worked up to 2300. I haven't loaded any in at least a year, but it's no mythological creature. I uses a Marlin XLR, not a Ruger #1, and if I did I might have been able to get 2400fps. Sorry for the lack of detail Rusty. I'll go back and work up the load again and PM you the charge weight. Maybe I'll make a video of it blowing through some phone books and such.

Mikelravy--This test originated on another forum, and one of the posters there furnished the bullets. They were discussed in some detail there a year or so ago. I have also exchanged PMs and telephone calls with the gentleman who furnished the bullets.

Extremist,
I've been running some H322 loads through my QuickLoad program, and dang if I can come up with 2300 FPS with a 400 grain anything.
50 grains of H322 will give 2313 FPS with a Garret 400 grain .458 but that 145% of case capacity and pressure over 130,000 PSI. Max PSI for 45/70 Gov. CIP is 31908.

Perhaps, if you could give me some detail on your own handloads?

Ah loads Honest 3:2;2. 3 parts pure Nitroglycerine, 2 parts Nitocellulose and 2 parts Pixie dust! Ah mixes it up in the blender! Ah can get 2700fps from my mighty Marlin 45-70 with my SPECIAL Alloy ( It don't come apart). Ah can shoot through Elephants ! Ah am certain its just as good as Yo 450-400. Ah gots lotsa real experience!-Rob

The following is a real load fired from a real rifle by me:

250 XFN

56 GR H4198

26" Barrel

2612 FPS AVG

DO NOT FIRE THIS LOAD IN A LEVER GUN OR OTHER LIGHT ACTION!!!!

quote:

I am in the planning stages of a Cape Buffalo/elephant hunt for 2010. If I can pull it off, I will use a 520 grain bullet at 20-1 lead/tin for the buffalo, and the same bullet at 16-1 for the elephant in my 45-110. These bullets will stay together well beyond where your wheel weight test bullets came apart, and will give much better penetration.

Sharpsguy,

If your going to go for buff with your 45/120 and cast bullets, then I'd suggest sticking with the harder of your bullets. A well shot buff dies quickly when shot with a solid. In fact, none of the buff that I've shot got a soft, they were all killed with solids. After your buff is down, try some of your softer bullets and see how they do, just for kicks. Many will nay say this but a big bore kills well with just solids, its the smaller bores that need the expanding bullets.

You know that I'm going to warn you off on trying for an elephant with your 45/120!!

Go with a 458wm or a proven round for your first elephant. If after that and some post mortem test shots, you still feel your rifle is up to it, have at it, but you really ought to use a proven round for your first.

If you persist on the 45/120 for your first elephant, then arrange a hunt for a cow elephant, their heads are MUCH smaller and the distance to the brain that much less of a challenge for any rifle. Hunt costs and trophy fees are less awe inspiring as well. Then, again, do some tests and make the call on using the 45/120 on a heck of a lot more expensive hunt and trohy fee for a bull.

JPK

Extremist458
“It's an inexpensive step into the big bores without many of the down sides like severe recoil and hard to handle big bolt actions, or hard to find ammo. It's more versitile and controlable then the others, and it carries that classic air. There is a reason it has servived over 135 years.â€

I have to admit I like the 45-70. I have a stainless guide gun, I have ben known to shoot some stoute loads in it.
I had to set back and smile at your statement about “It's an inexpensive step into the big bores without many of the down sides like severe recoil and hard to handle big bolt actions.â€
I am just thinking that if you don’t think there is aney severe recoil shooting a 400 gr bullet out of a leaver gun at 2300 fps. You would love the mild recoil from a 10 pound 500 NE.
I think if I was looking fore more power in a leaver gun I would get a 475 Turnbull rather than over stress a 45-70.
Bill

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
Extremist,
I've been running some H322 loads through my QuickLoad program, and dang if I can come up with 2300 FPS with a 400 grain anything.
50 grains of H322 will give 2313 FPS with a Garret 400 grain .458 but that 145% of case capacity and pressure over 130,000 PSI. Max PSI for 45/70 Gov. CIP is 31908.

Perhaps, if you could give me some detail on your own handloads?

Rusty,

Obviously Quickload is wrong.

Macijef, Hodgdon has loads of 60 grains H4198 with a 300 grain bullet in the 45-70. 2400+ fps, I shoot 56.1 grains and chronoed from my 18.5" barrel at almost 2300 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by Tyler Kemp:
Macijef, Hodgdon has loads of 60 grains H4198 with a 300 grain bullet in the 45-70. 2400+ fps, I shoot 56.1 grains and chronoed from my 18.5" barrel at almost 2300 fps.

That sounds right to me Tyler...

My thoughts as well, Frank!