quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:
Has anyone here loaded a .416 -- any .416 with a 500 grain bullet? That's got to be a super long bullet and the .416 Taylor and the .458 win mag can ill afford to lose case capacity. How much space would a 500 grn .416 bullet it eat up?

ah, you don't need to.. you load 450 woodlieghs, which have a higher SD than a 500gr .458 bullet, and still go 2300...

which is good enough for the lott with a 500..

and the gun still kicks less...

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The 416 Taylor became totally obsolete with the advent of the better 416 Remington...

Of course all sub .458 bullets became obsolete when the taylor was invented, which was superceeded by the remington... for EXACTLY the same reasons the remington is cheaper to make a gun in than a rigby
jeffe

http://www.auctionarms.com/search/displayitem.cfm?itemnum=6937770

i would do a d.g.hunt with this, wouldn't you?

I'd do some minor refinishing of the stock and do some checkering.....

It's a DG worthy rifle IMO.

weld the rear sight UP and checker it.. and actually finish the stock

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by John S:
I also KNOW that any Taylor will be no handier or lighter than a 416 Remington. Why? Because they use the exact same actions! Any 458 or 338 or 300 Win mag M70 can be opened back up for the H&H length. Any M700 Rem. is already long enough...so where does the lighter and handier part come in? Can't be the barrel or the stock....oh it must the the 10grs less powder each cartridge holds!

The Taylor is a wildcat with no factory brass and that makes it a non-starter for overseas hunting in the future, IMO.

John, the lighter and handier does come from the 10gr less powder because it does translate into markedly less recoil:

- 8.5 pound Taylor shooting 400gr bullet over 72gr powder translates to 56 ft-lb recoil. (I like this combo).

- 8.5 pound 416Rem shooting 400gr bullet over 82gr powder translates to 63 ft-lb recoil. You need to add 1 pound weight to the 416Rem 9.5 pounds to have the same recoil (56 ft-lb) of the Taylor.

- 8.5 pound 416Rig shooting 400gr bullet over 96gr powder translates to 69 ft-lb recoil. You need to add 2 pounds weight to the 416Rig 10.5 pounds to have the same recoil (56 ft-lb) of the Taylor.

I like to carry the Taylor at approx. 8.5 pounds and find the recoil tolerable. I prefer a bit more weight in either the Remington or Rigby. So I don't care which action you pick, I find it easier to have a handier and lighter rifle w/ the Taylor vs. the Rem or Rig.

I don't know where this BS about factory headstamped brass came from, but it is readily available for the Taylor. Also, who is shooting factory 416Remington ammo? What are you seeing thru a chrony? For whatever reason, this stuff is being downloaded as of late by a good amount. So even w/ the 416Rem, it would probably be a handloaded affair no different than the Taylor.

I like the 338WM, 375Taylor, 416Taylor and 458WM whether they are factory rounds or not. I think the 416Taylor should be and I'd wager that if it was standard it would probably sell well compared to the Remington or Rigby.

Gary

Just a couple of facts for consideration

1. The SD of a 400 gr .416 is .330 and a 500 gr .458 is .340

2. AA2230 will launch 500 gr .458s at 2250 fps at safe pressures

quote:

Originally posted by Sabot:
Just a couple of facts for consideration

1. The SD of a 400 gr .416 is .330 and a 500 gr .458 is .340

2. AA2230 will launch 500 gr .458s at 2250 fps at safe pressures

you can get 450 and 500 gr 416 bullets!

Gary,
You must have a more sensitive shoulder than I do because I could never feel a significant difference in recoil from the addition of such a small amount of powder. And, your preference of the 8.5 pound Taylor being easier and handier for you doesn't change the fact that a Remington can be just the same to myself or anyone else.
We are getting off topic here anyway, the question was whether or not a Taylor is superior to the 458. And my answer to that is still no, not now and not ever! And the Remington isn't either.

sectional density of 450 gr. 416=371 sectional density of 500 gr. 416=413!!!!!

quote:

Originally posted by GaryVA:

quote:

Originally posted by John S:
I also KNOW that any Taylor will be no handier or lighter than a 416 Remington. Why? Because they use the exact same actions! Any 458 or 338 or 300 Win mag M70 can be opened back up for the H&H length. Any M700 Rem. is already long enough...so where does the lighter and handier part come in? Can't be the barrel or the stock....oh it must the the 10grs less powder each cartridge holds!

The Taylor is a wildcat with no factory brass and that makes it a non-starter for overseas hunting in the future, IMO.

John, the lighter and handier does come from the 10gr less powder because it does translate into markedly less recoil:

- 8.5 pound Taylor shooting 400gr bullet over 72gr powder translates to 56 ft-lb recoil. (I like this combo).

- 8.5 pound 416Rem shooting 400gr bullet over 82gr powder translates to 63 ft-lb recoil. You need to add 1 pound weight to the 416Rem 9.5 pounds to have the same recoil (56 ft-lb) of the Taylor.

- 8.5 pound 416Rig shooting 400gr bullet over 96gr powder translates to 69 ft-lb recoil. You need to add 2 pounds weight to the 416Rig 10.5 pounds to have the same recoil (56 ft-lb) of the Taylor.

I like to carry the Taylor at approx. 8.5 pounds and find the recoil tolerable. I prefer a bit more weight in either the Remington or Rigby. So I don't care which action you pick, I find it easier to have a handier and lighter rifle w/ the Taylor vs. the Rem or Rig.

I don't know where this BS about factory headstamped brass came from, but it is readily available for the Taylor. Also, who is shooting factory 416Remington ammo? What are you seeing thru a chrony? For whatever reason, this stuff is being downloaded as of late by a good amount. So even w/ the 416Rem, it would probably be a handloaded affair no different than the Taylor.

I like the 338WM, 375Taylor, 416Taylor and 458WM whether they are factory rounds or not. I think the 416Taylor should be and I'd wager that if it was standard it would probably sell well compared to the Remington or Rigby.

Gary

awesome post (two thumbs up)

I vote for the 458.

Bigger is better. The 500 grn 458 makes a lot bigger hole than does the 400 grn 416.

I leave all the scientific arguments at the house when I head for the woods. Nothing I've ever killed wanted to argue ballistics with me. Therefore the sectional density argument pulls little weight with me.

Furthermore, from a cost analysis standpoint, the 458 makes even better sense as its been a standardized cartridge for a lot longer than I've been alive. As such, there's more "stuff" available for it and at less cost. Moreover still, I can walk into certain gun stores here in rural East Texas and find 458 Win Mag ammo for sale - where can I find a 416 locally other than on my reloading bench at home?

Further still Peter Capstick, Finn Aagard, and Phil Shoemaker have all said pleasant things about the win mag. Their opinions cut a lot of cake in my mind.

Lastly, if I were to ever own a 458 Win Mag and felt under gunned, I could have it punched out a to a Lott. You just can't get that crazy with a 416 Taylor.

Therefore, it is my opinion that the 458 Win Mag is better and is for all intents and purposes, the lesser of the two evils in question.

I vote for the 458.

Tex

i would say as far as knock down power the 458 has the edge up to about 50 yards and thats where the 416 takes over unless you are talking about penetration and then the 416 has it beat at any distance!

what say you...

I would say that I have not noticed any difference in penetration, at any of the ranges I have made shots from. I have noticed a very large increase in knockdown effect on the buffalo and the other game I have used these rifles on.
How about you Boomstick? Can you tell us what your experiences are using these calibers?

I'll jump in one more time to say that I have always noticed a significant difference in recoil due to powder charges. I don't have a 416 Rem, and if I were recommeding a 416 to an average guy wanting one, that would be it. However, I do now have three Taylors and one Rigby. All of the Taylors are significantly lighter than the Ruger Rigby, and have both wood and glass stocks. They are all more comfortable to shoot than the Ruger (which has a replacement Decelerator, by the way). To my mind, the Rigby crosses the line between fun and have to. It actually feels to me to be worse than either of my two 458's(a Mauser and a heavy No. 1 custom).

I have noticed this in other calibers too. I have a light 338/284. It is much more pleasant to shoot than my 338, although there is only a slight difference in performance (same ballistics as the 338/06).

As to headstamps, 416 Taylor is as easy to find as most of the oddball factory stuff guys here like. I just ordered a bunch of different brass from Midway. The only one they were out of was 300H&H.

Finally, if everyone is so against wildcats, lets go to the African board and jump all over Saeed for his 375/404 when he could be using a 378 Weatherby with, I suspect, identical ballistics. If the "belt from hell" is the justification for that choice, then we'll need to go the Medium Bore board and start a campaign against the high priest of all cartridges here, the 375H&H because the belt on it is going to kill everyone who uses it.

They're all good cartridges. Just be sure your rifle functions well with the one you choose and have at it.

quote:

Originally posted by John S:
I would say that I have not noticed any difference in penetration, at any of the ranges I have made shots from. I have noticed a very large increase in knockdown effect on the buffalo and the other game I have used these rifles on.
How about you Boomstick? Can you tell us what your experiences are using these calibers?

have not shot a taylor yet...for me right now it is an idea that is gaining steam. i like the 416 cal and a lot of people here use them so i am encouraged

I'd say they are both failures in that they never accomplished what they were touted to do when they were released. The 458 win mag was designed to achieve 500 gr @ 2150, and it didn't do that when originally released, only in subsequent years have suitable powders and factory ammo been released to do that.

The 416 Taylor was designed as a std action 416 Rigby using common brass, but it has never achieved 400 gr @ 2400 fps with normal length barrels or reasonable opperating pressures.

Either round is certainly capable of taking any dangerous game. That said, they aren't the best choice in their given calibers. Any wildcat is silly for a hunting round, especially given overseas travel, so that knocks off the 416 Taylor, especially with the 416 Rem mag accomplishing honest 416 Rigby performance.

The 458 Lott acomplishes what the 458 win mag couldn't originally do, as well as what it can never do, ie 500 gr @ 2300.

To the originally asked question, the 458 Win mag is a better choice, it is a factory round, can do what the 416 taylor can do, as well as what it can't, and there is a much larger selction of .458" componet bullets which makes it much more flexible for the handloader, and cheaper for plinking.

One last comment on the heavy 416 bullets, once you get sufficient penetration, the only way to gain killing power is to go to larger dia heavier bullets, not the same dia heavier bullets. You don't gain more killing power by driving 500 gr bullets in a 40 cal, but you do when driving 500's from a 45 cal.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul H:
I'd say they are both failures in that they never accomplished what they were touted to do when they were released. The 458 win mag was designed to achieve 500 gr @ 2150, and it didn't do that when originally released, only in subsequent years have suitable powders and factory ammo been released to do that.

The 416 Taylor was designed as a std action 416 Rigby using common brass, but it has never achieved 400 gr @ 2400 fps with normal length barrels or reasonable opperating pressures.

Either round is certainly capable of taking any dangerous game. That said, they aren't the best choice in their given calibers. Any wildcat is silly for a hunting round, especially given overseas travel, so that knocks off the 416 Taylor, especially with the 416 Rem mag accomplishing honest 416 Rigby performance.

The 458 Lott acomplishes what the 458 win mag couldn't originally do, as well as what it can never do, ie 500 gr @ 2300.

To the originally asked question, the 458 Win mag is a better choice, it is a factory round, can do what the 416 taylor can do, as well as what it can't, and there is a much larger selction of .458" componet bullets which makes it much more flexible for the handloader, and cheaper for plinking.

One last comment on the heavy 416 bullets, once you get sufficient penetration, the only way to gain killing power is to go to larger dia heavier bullets, not the same dia heavier bullets. You don't gain more killing power by driving 500 gr bullets in a 40 cal, but you do when driving 500's from a 45 cal.

great post with lots of good critique...but the taylor pushes the same weight faster and further so at 100 yards it will need the s.d. of the 416. this post was about the taylor and the win mag. i already said ballisticly the rem is better. there are better carts than the win mag and the taylor we all aggree. but i am getting afficionados oppinions about the cartridge and not ammo avaliability in africa. do i will disagree and stick with my opinion that the taylor wins the better cart beyond 50 yards unless otherwise convinced. i am glad to hear good reports from people who have used it in africa though both are good but i give the w.m. a 7 out of ten for intended purpose and the taylor an 8 good stuff

Jeffe,
Have you tried to load the 450 gr. Woodleigh in a 416 Taylor to 2100 FPS...Unless you have a magnum action and a long throat, its pretty hard to do successfully, the bullet just about takes up all the available powder space..your way better off with a 350 gr. monolithic solid or Hp, that has the SD of a 400 gr. Woodleigh, besides the 350 mono HP in the 416 C/T, is a great load for buffalo...

The 458 Win. with a proper handload is a better charge stopper than the 416 Taylor...end of story...Not saying a 416 Taylor or even a .375 won't stop a charge they will....

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
The 458 Win. with a proper handload is a better charge stopper than the 416 Taylor...end of story...Not saying a 416 Taylor or even a .375 won't stop a charge they will....

where do you think the taylor takes over as a better cart for hunting NOT STOPPING. i say 50 yards maybe 100 and then i think the taylor takes the lead. what say you?

I like the Taylor, but it is irritating the way you word your replies it sounds like you aren't really asking for opinion on which is better, you're trying to find a way to backup your opinion that the Taylor is better (I think it is a better cartridge, but that is MHO).

If you want to be honest about which one is better you have to look at the use. Most people, sensible at least, are not going to take a 416+ bore hunting plains game or non-dangerous game. So the 100yds. and beyond doesn't really matter in my opine because you should be using a light magnum like a 300-338 for distance shots.

If you are shooting big tough animals at great distance than I would also rather have a greater dia. bullet so they really know they have been hit. The Taylor IS practical, if it is chosen because it works best for the action, which would be actions with a mag. box length = 06 OAL. It DOES limit the ability to seat the bullet out further. If you are going to try to use 400+ grain bullets in the Taylor and want to make it worth the price of the bullets then you need to go with a longer mag, which then puts you into the 416 Remington realm.

summary- The 416 T is better than the 458w in my opinion because it is efficient and most people will be able to shoot the 416 better than the 458 due to punishment and our natural dislike of it. With lighter bullets in the 350-370 range (I think somebody makes a 370g. 416) it will have good trajectory and with a properly contructed bullet like the Northforks it should do the job very nicely.

Oh, by the way, past 50 doesnt' matter to the 458 win from what I have seen. I knew a guy that shot competiions and had a no. 1 in 458 win with peep sights. He shot it offhand and at 100 yards I wouldn't want to be a 5 inch target, he had no problem hitting whatever he aimed it at. And the juice was there, he wasn't loading it down.

Red

o.k. i'll take that criticism...maybe i am getting defensive becaulse of the dog pile against the taylor. but there have been great posts and i have learned a lot i do think if i had the choice of which to carry between them it would be tha 416 taylor for all the reasons posted here. with a detachable magazine i could switch between loads and weights with ease and i think it is a swell cart. all in all but the 416 rigby will be the choice for me unless i need a better handling faster loading less cumbersome alaska rifle. thanks

DagoRed

Obviously you haven't shot any decent 458 WM's. In a decent 458 WM, the recoil is just a wee bit more than a 375 provided you have a straight stock and proper weight. I've let different kinds of folks shoot my 458's over the years and they have all said it wasn't that bad after a bit of instruction and to be properly situated (body upright) right off the bench. Now, if you want to bitch about recoil, then the 458 Lott gets the cake.

Whoa 475, don't accuse me of bitching about recoil. me saying "most people" does not mean I am in that category. I don't have a problem with recoil, as of yet. I am smart and honest though and will say that I won't purposely overgun myself when a lighter one will do the job.

And my 458Win IS coming back a Lott (but I have no plan to stoke it up real high, I'm planning on a good 2250fps with a Northfork 450g). It has to be restocked anyways, the comb on the Bishop stock that was on it was too high for me and my cheekbone was on it too tight by the time I got behind the iron sights. I'll make sure the new stock is fit properly for me, and I don't plan on using it as my plinker.

Red

You can use it as a plinker with some cast loads and 5744 powder. It'll be a blast.

Isn't it very close to the .411 KDF?

400 gr. 411 s.d.=336

Which is superior? IMHO the 416 Taylor is superior if you are mixing plains game with limited buff and elephant on the menu. For buff or elephant at 10 yds give me the 458WM with 500 gr bullets at 2,150 or more every time.

465H&H

It depends.

I know it's not much of an answer, but it's true. Honestly, if I was hunting dangerous game I would be using a .458 Winchester Magnum over a .416 Taylor anyday. Bullet weight and diameter are ideal, as stated, maching .450 Nitro velocities. That's plenty for the nasties! I would use that or go with another commercial round, like the .416 Remington or Rigby, or the .375 H&H.

Boomstick,
I suppose to answer your question, the 416 Taylor would technically be a better plainsgame caliber than the .458, but on the other hand if you were hunting plainsgame in an area where Buffalo, elephant and Lion roamed, you would be better off with the .458, at least technically...


Actually I don't see it as a problem either way as both will do a great job on everything under about any condition...

The intelligent question here is: Do you want to risk using a wildcat on an expensive safari? I don't for many reasons that have been argued here many times...

The same action will take a 416 Remington, so that's the intelligent answer to your question.
The rest is just gobbly goop ya ya internet converstation.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
...The intelligent question here is: Do you want to risk using a wildcat on an expensive safari? ...

Yep, samething said when someone wanted to take a 450/400 or a 416 remington, or the hordes using the lott (other than 458 winmag) before it became a saami round... 378weatherby, any of the 460 weatherby based factory round, any of the wsm, rum, etc etc etc etc etc etc rounds.

Just doesn't hold water, period.

this equally applies to the person that brings a 577 nitro (there just aint none) as a 416 taylor. 2 years ago tehre was not a SINGLE round of 577 nitro to be purchased, for any price, in tanzania... A friend PH'ed there, and rought enough ammo, or had clients bring more...

I wager there's more 416 taylors taken on safari then there are 577 nitros,any given year...


SO, in essesnce, what I have been saying is, "don't count it as a bad for a wildcat round when it's exactly the same for "standard" rounds"

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Jeffe,
Have you tried to load the 450 gr. Woodleigh in a 416 Taylor to 2100 FPS..

send me 10 of them and I'll get them to go 2100..

or, Ral, you know it's "12.5%" longer, right?

and you want it to go 87% as fast?

Ray, if hornady can get 2200+ with a 510 in the 458 WIN (not lott), 2100 with a 416 taylor with a 450 is nothing...

jeffe

Lose your ammo and you're SOL with just about anything you might take.

There's definitely a better chance of finding some calibers than others, but it's just that, a chance. And if you're unlucky enough to lose your ammo, I wouldn't count on your luck turning good when it's time to buy some in Africa.

Best bet if you worry about such things, and it's not a great option, but still best, is to use the same caliber rifle as your PH, or make arrangements to borrow a rifle from your outfitter if the need arises.

When Holland & Holland were booking DG safaris, they would arrange to lend you a Royal double rifle in .500/.465 for the duration. I could have done that once, when I booked through H&H, but chose to use my own rifles instead.

Sometimes though, I wish I had been a borrower, at least for one buffalo.

quote:

The intelligent question here is: Do you want to risk using a wildcat on an expensive safari? I don't for many reasons that have been argued here many times...

Intelligent my a55!

I agree with Jeffe on this one, AGAIN (and MRLEXMA). There are very few chamberings that will save your bacon (ie. ammo readily available in Africa, eg Dar, Harare, JNB, etc)) if your ammo doesn't arrive with you. Wildcats are obviously not in that group, but neither are many of the cartridges recommended here.

It'd be a pretty short list of acceptable African hunting cartridges if we limited it to those where ammo is readilly available anywhere you go. Wildcats are just picked on cuz they are easy.

Cheers,
Canuck

ps: I bet you can count the number of times Saeed has taken a factory chambering to Africa on one hand.

I tried to tell my wife this about ammo availability and she wasn't buying it. of course my spin was that we should move to Africa and open a sporting goods store and carry a wide selection of ammo and components and that we would get lots of business.

Red