Just wondering.......specifically the .375 AR

how close dimensionally to the .375 Dakota is this round going to be?

As far as the .416 and the .375 it seems as though there will be about 150-200'/sec improvement over the .375 and .416 Taylor velocities....and frankly that's a real plus.

Dimensionally however...it seems as though we're duplicating the .375 Dakota...

what say you on this?

well i can guess .005 wider and .08 longer on the 375 but jeffeosso has not shown us drawings yet but i guess the brass thickness will fudge the #s some...i have asked jeffeosso for case volumes before to compare but no response yet...what say you jeffeosso? the 375 dakota has no flies on it i think the a.r.375 will be either faster or lower preasure in my guessing



the real big case diff. is with the taylor and a.r.

being that the col is about identical using shorter heavier bullets would be best i.m.o. lead over copper. jeffeosso...long-throating the gun for this cart and fudging the col...would this be an advantage or can it be done to help get longer bullets out of the case?

the 375 dakota is 3.33 col

Those "differences" would strongly indicated that the AR cartridges are a friggin' waste of time and money -- both of which would be better spent hunting than screwing around with such nonsense........

AD

sooooo how do you realy feel about them?

as far as money goes...converting a rifle taking up room in the safe and not being used to convert into a ________(name the large or dangerous animal) killer is a great idea if you dont have one but to each his own and to thyself be true. how many carts on the market today started as a "hey, what about..." 458 lott 470 mbogo 470 capstick 550 magnum ect ect...to name a few. there is a lot of time between safari's...some people kill time this way. i would not piss on jeffeoss's project but say i hope you succeed and every man has a dreams(s) there are a few here that will make these guns and i support them. i love tradition and i love ingenuity. if you have a p.o.v. that would make it better....post it and it will be debated openly. i think jeffeosso's project is admirable compared to not doing anything if you have the talent money and craziness

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Those "differences" would strongly indicated that the AR cartridges are a friggin' waste of time and money -- both of which would be better spent hunting than screwing around with such nonsense........

AD

Fair enough if that's what you like. Some of us enjoy building odd caliber guns just as much. Only difference; we don't call your hobby a friggin waste of time just because its not ours as well.

vapodog,
I haven't done the work on the 30's, but I would expect 8% over the dakotas. even if the length was the only difference (it's not) that would be 6%

the 458 is right at or over a lott in capacity, which means MAGIC something cool for standard length actions... case capacity !!!

Waste of time and money? yep.. just like everything since the 8x57

jeffe

Thanks guys....and I assume since you're using RUM brass the standard magnum bolt face of a .338 Win Mag will be usable "as is"....and one don't need to convert to the .404 head size.

Allen
I've read your advice about spending on hunting instead of buying/building guns......and I agree whole heartedly. I wish I'd taken that advice twenty years ago.

That's a very nice Buff in your signature line.....

allen...all respect and good taste...lots here like the 416 taylor and this would be a good advantage over that cart...people could rechamber the taylor and have an extra 150 fps! that is great in a handy size rifle capable of africa d.g. or download for moose ect.

To compare apples to apples, one should compare inside capacity with a given bullet or three seated to same COL.
A 270g .375 will be around 1.25" long or so, meaning the base is at around 2.1" or so. There may be some room around the base of the bullet, decreasing fill%, but you might not get the speed increase you want. If you're shooting 220's you might see the real difference, but who's going to build one of these to do that?
Build one because it says "AR," you have a donor and because the brass is cheap. Otherwise you may be dissapointed.

well jeffeosso will have the 470 458 and 416 running soon so we will soon find out. wish him well

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Those "differences" would strongly indicated that the AR cartridges are a friggin' waste of time and money -- both of which would be better spent hunting than screwing around with such nonsense........

AD

Allen,
I agree! Also there is false economy in using bum-RUM rebated brass.

Building big bore coyote rifles is a great outlet for those of us who are stuck in occupations and family situations that don't allow us to trot off to Africa for a month each year.

I am all for the craziness of wildcatting. Just don't waste "time and money" on rebated rim designs.

Everybody has got to be crazy about something, just as you obviously are.

Ok, the whole point here wasn't some magical improvement over anything existing; rather it was simply something functional, unique to AR, designed from relatively affordable components and buildable on a military Mausers or commecial equivalents.

Practicality and/or superiority were not part of the mix. If you don't like'em, don't build'em.

No good. . . . LOL!

After these AR cartridges are house in "affordable components", then what?

AD

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
After these AR cartridges are house in "affordable components", then what?

AD

what? I amnot certain what you meant to say

allen, if you don't like wildcats, why do you ask?

....
Allen, what part of "cheap brass and bullets" do you think is questionable? seriously...

Then again, if you have no interest in the rounds, why do you bother?

j

Jeff, most projects of this nature end up being an exercise in mental gymnastics, and little else. Wildcats are never a good or practical idea for African hunting purposes, and for a host of reasons (the headstamps don't match, for starters), and I see little other field application for these AR wildcats other than for African use. But, I guess there's nothing wrong with a hobby rifle if that's what you want, and if that's what your real focus is.

But for a guy who's interested in real hunting, why bother with them in the first place? Especially when there are a host of standard cartridges that'll do all that these will do, plus pose none of the logistical hassles, especially when you're on the other side of the world on an expensive safari, with the only source of resupply on your loading bench back home, some 10,000 miles away. You talk about a brainfart....... man alive!

Then we get to the "affordable components" part. If you can "afford" to hunt African dangerous game, you can afford quality components that were fabricated, BY INTENT, to house the cartridge in question, instead of fussing and fuming over whether or not some cartridge is going to fit in some surplus Mauser action, which likely won't have the proper magazine system for optimum feeding and function in the first place -- critical considerations, to say the very least, not to mention that fact that it won't be properly rehardened, etc. When we argue for, and base an entire project around such nickle & dime considerations, especially considering what is truly at stake on safari, then I think we've betrayed the real practicality and purpose of the program.

Not only that, but for less money than some budget-orient, off-beat, home-brewed big bore that's built sort of half-assed, you can buy a quality factory rifle that's actually better-built, and chambered for a standard cartridge that'll perform the same tasks, and with none of the hassles.

Now flame away.........

AD

quote:

Jeff, most projects of this nature end up being an exercise in mental gymnastics, and little else. Wildcats are never a good or practical idea for African hunting purposes, and for a host of reasons (the headstamps don't match, for starters), and I see little other field application for these AR wildcats other than for African use. But, I guess there's nothing wrong with a hobby rifle if that's what you want, and if that's what your real focus is.

But for a guy who's interested in real hunting, why bother with them in the first place? Especially when there are a host of standard cartridges that'll do all that these will do, plus pose none of the logistical hassles, especially when you're on the other side of the world on an expensive safari, with the only source of resupply on your loading bench back home, some 10,000 miles away. You talk about a brainfart....... man alive!

Then we get to the "affordable components" part. If you can "afford" to hunt African dangerous game, you can afford quality components that were fabricated, BY INTENT, to house the cartridge in question, instead of fussing and fuming over whether or not some cartridge is going to fit in some surplus Mauser action, which likely won't have the proper magazine system for optimum feeding and function in the first place -- critical considerations, to say the very least, not to mention that fact that it won't be properly rehardened, etc. When we argue for, and base an entire project around such nickle & dime considerations, especially considering what is truly at stake on safari, then I think we've betrayed the real practicality and purpose of the program.

Not only that, but for less money than some budget-orient, off-beat, home-brewed big bore that's built sort of half-assed, you can buy a quality factory rifle that's actually better-built, and chambered for a standard cartridge that'll perform the same tasks, and with none of the hassles.

No offense here but this sounds like the perfect reason to make these!

quote:

No offense here but this sounds like the perfect reason to make these!

Rusty....I agree.....different strokes....you know

I think Allen maybe just hasn't had any sex for a while...

Allen,

I was one of the first nay sayers on this project. And I questioned some of this on technical terms, right up front. BUT:

This is all perspective, you like to hunt. If I talked to my wife your hunting trips are a colosal waste of time, dollars and productive energy ( mine trips are for sure ). Many of us have guns as a hobby, and the hobby takes many twists and turns, and there are many ways to sknin a cat so to speak.

I am not excited about the concept, but if it keeps them out of the bars at night and their having fun, who am I to criticise, I also think that even if the whole process ends up a major failure, there is some serious learning curve and knowledge being aquired. All good, and in the end there is probably not going to be a monetary reward, but I think the learnning curve will more than compensate for the small amount of dollars they have invested. I see time as the only valuable commodity that is being heavily invested, and I suspect in the end it would be a wash if factored angainst reading several books on the subject.

Let them have their fun, impractical maybe, but they need to figure it out for themselves.

Guys enjoy, doing this is much better than sitting on you asses and posting threads.

DAMN thread posters. Theyre all goin to hell in a handbasket.

Hey Jeffe, you try necking up some 375 RUM's for the 416? that would be even cheaper than the Jamison stuff, as long as the lot of REM brass doesnt suck...

an extra 150 to 200 fps improvment on the 416 or 375 taylor is "no waste of time"...if it does not work for you dont do it...simple

having a capstick equivalent in a 338 w.m. rifle that can shoot pistol bullets as well is "no waste of time" for me.

some people just have some crazy to spend and are shopping.

youth is for the crazy...thats what makes it fun.

to each his own, to thyself be true, the road less traveled and find your own path ect...

why this offends allen i dont know but i respect his opinion and wish him well

rip...you have plenty of crazy...but that is what makes you cool.

i realy like your project and hope you succeed as well as jeffeosso!

id rather the board be filled with 50 rips and jeffeosso's as well as the traditional purists.

rip...jeffe has already given the rebate issue its death cert with non rebated rum brass so there is no issue.

i want to have 2 a.r. carts and 3 rip carts as well as 3 other conventional carts...i have the best of both worlds.

find your own path and enjoy the journey

Allen,
reamers are in hand, dies and barrels are ordered, and guns will be waiting my time to build them... there's not alot of mental gymnastics left, bub.. this is the big bore, not african forum... your assumptions of use.. well, you know the old joke about assumptions..

-- you know what.. i did a rather long reply, and decided against it...

I do need to point out that your last reply "flame away" comment is actualy stage dressing for you to say "he flamed me".. pretty lame tatic.



jeffe

Hey, Jeff (or "BUB", if you prefer!), the 'mental gymnastics' part of the equation will begin just as soon as you land in Africa, and some local official wonders why the headstamp on your cartridge cases (or lack thereof) doesn't match the caliber designation (or lack therof) on your rifle barrel, and those same mental gymnastics will greatly accelerate if the bag containing you ammo does not arrive along with your rifles (been there on that one, and suffered accordingly).......

My points are anything but lame, but rather are based upon experience as well as common-sense.
On the other hand, arguments in favor of wildcats in Africa are most certainly lame.

The worst kind of fool is the fool that fools himself, and who is willing to go down in flames over a theory.........especially when they have $300 worth (or $1000 worth) of rifle components on hand, and ONLY a $30,000-$100,000 safari on the line.........

Hey! Lets all step over a dollar to pick up a dime why don't we, ride that weird cartridge theory to death, shoot ourselves in the foot over it, fill a safe full of it (instead of a wall full of trophies)......... and for the sake of WHAT?????

AD

Once again you completely miss the point, AD; lost in your own arrogance.

It's about home gunbuilding, not Safari.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:

Hey! Lets all step over a dollar to pick up a dime why don't we, ride that weird cartridge theory to death, shoot ourselves in the foot over it, fill a safe full of it (instead of a wall full of trophies)......... and for the sake of WHAT?????

AD

Not every gun goes to Africa.

Hey, sometimes it's about making the movie, and other times it just about the camera.

Just poppin' in to say, "DEJA VU"...

Sounds like a cool project. Specially in winter while waiting for next years season.

I reload all my own hunting ammo so all my stuff may as well be wildcats. I pack my ammo with my gear so if I don't have ammo I wouldn't have gear either.

I don't hunt in Africa so I don't have to worry about that.

That 475 AR is the one I am leaning towards. I plan on getting another 375 ultra and maybe a smallbore for sheep hunting. Sounds like a good three gun battery for Alaska .But thats just me.

quote:

Originally posted by allen day:
Those "differences" would strongly indicated that the AR cartridges are a friggin' waste of time and money -- both of which would be better spent hunting than screwing around with such nonsense........

AD

I must admit I have been mystified by these "new" cartridges too.

I remember a lot of guys canning the new H&H cartridges a while back because they were "redundant" as well and did "nothing" new.

Have fun fellas.

I wonder how I got those rounds for my 450/400 3 inch through? There are no caliber stampings on my double rifle.

Just lucky I guess?

Rusty,
man, i don't know,.

Allen,
I disagree with you, and don't I don't feel like being a dick about it. If you aren't interested in them, then cool.

jeffe

quote:

Originally posted by Rusty:
I wonder how I got those rounds for my 450/400 3 inch through? There are no caliber stampings on my double rifle.

Just lucky I guess?

Wow....and I got a pile of .375 H&H rounds through without even a gun for them.....and they didn't say a word about my .300 weatherby rounds even though my .300 H&H was rechambered and the barrel was never restamped.....
Rusty.....was I ever lucky as well!!!
Allen....we've heard it...so lighten up.

Well got to agree with all sides of this one. If your a safari hunter first, as Allen infers, then wildcats can be a potential problem if the brass was checked or ammo went missing. However, I never saw any ammo available, except the .375 H&H or .458 Win. in Africa. I hunt with mostly custom calibers because I like them.

But the guys who build wildcats on the big bore forum are a special breed of cat. They built the 470 Mbogo-Dave, 600 OK-Rob, and 550 Mag/Exp- Neal Shirly to name a few, all which pushed the envelop on fine big bore rounds. I don't see anything new coming out of Rem or Win that I am interested in lately. So the AR calibers maybe a science project but I'll bet they will function and a lot will be learned. And as someone opined, it will keep them out of the bars

But then again will anyone commit a lot of money to build a really great rifle on these calibers--to be answered later, but doesn't mean the calibers were not a working success.

Me I love the rifles, custom calibers, and also love to go on safari when finances allow--when the wife allows

Dak

I've always noted that Alan makes wonderful blunt to the point posts regarding what works best for the serious hunter, and I agree with what he states.

That said, as one of the co-designers of the AR serious of rounds, I'd like to make some points on why they were designed. First off, the majority of big bores built and fired in the US never make it to Africa, and I'd venture to say most folks that get them don't even have their sights set on Africa. So why would one have a 40+ cal rifle if they weren't planning to stalk the tall grass after M-bogo? Pure unadultered fun!

The same reason that there are alot more street rods built than rods built for the drag strip. And just as a serious racer will limit his choices, the street rodder just wants to have fun, and will make some choices based on economics vs finish times, the fun oriented big bore shooter is looking for an economical route to make a big gun.

The guy looking to build an affordable big bore isn't going to order a double square bridge magnum action to start with, he's going to look at verious used racks for donor guns. What is most likely to be found on those racks is a generic std length belted mag rifle, the perfect donor, because they are common and cheap. Ok, if one wants the biggest punch with the least amount of metalwork, what parent cases can he use? Obviously the 2.5" belted case, which opens the wopping options of a 416 Taylor or a 475 whatzit, but the case capacity just isn't quite there. So then what? How about a rem u/m case shortened slightly and necked up? Aha, here we go.

If you're hunting Africa and your criteria is the best dedicated gun for that task, then follow Alan's sage advice. If you just want big grins on your face, a big hole in your barrel, and won't have to mortgage the house to get it built, consider the AR rounds

Good breakdown Paul. We also have to remember too, when Jeffe started the whole thing, he did not run around stating that this was gonna be "the best Africa/DGR cartridge ever".

All I have to do now is find a beat ass M70(NOT push feed) for cheap. Damn things going on gunbroker for way over $350.

allen is just the type that makes people want to take these to africa sooooo i guess keep it going


hey...check out this new imagicon

quote:

Originally posted by gixxer:
Good breakdown Paul. We also have to remember too, when Jeffe started the whole thing, he did not run around stating that this was gonna be "the best Africa/DGR cartridge ever".

Nope, just a product of a fertile mind that thought it would be nice to have a series of rounds dedicated to this site.

Well, being a hunter first I agree with Allen on this subject. I guess I just can't comprehend building a rifle and not using it in actual field conditions. It really is just theory if you don't.

I do understand if fiddling with rifles is your thing.

I love custom rifles, for hunting purposes though. Far too many "hunters" would be better served to go hunting rather than spending money on projects.

I think that is what AD is trying to say.

Lightning, no one suggested they wouldn't be used. They'll be used with regularity on a variety of game. The issue I took with Allen was his seeming postion that if it wasn't fit for Africa it wasn't fit at all.

Second, having the money to hunt and the time to hunt are two different things. My pocket book doesn't stop me as much as my business and given a choice between the two, I find my business much more rewarding than hunting.