larryshores posted of Alister Norton's run in with a wounded buff in the following thread...

http://forums.accuratereloadin...4711043/m/7691088841

As that thread has gotten a bit sidetracked I decided to start a new one.

Alister had not one, but two hairy situations with buff this past season. The following account is of the second buff charge as told by my friend Nganga who spent the last part of the season with Alister, I am posting it for him as he is currently predisposed. In both of these situations Alister was backing up his clients with his .458 Lott shooting 550gr Woodleighs that I handload for him to 2,150 fps. Not sure if a heavier cartridge would have made a difference but Alister has told both Steve and myself that in both instances, had he been carrying a double, he is sure he would have gotten off a fast second shot and stopped events right there.

He is now seriously in the market for a double.

Here is the story and a pic of the second buff.

"I was spending the last few days of the 2010 safari season in his Nkala GMA which borders the Kafue national park. His client was a 6'6" Austrian man named Andreas, whom I liked very much. He had wounded a buffalo hunting dugga bulls in the thickets along the GMA boundary near Iteshi Teshi lake. The cover there is dense, nearly impenetrable and certainly adds a new dimension to tracking.

Alister had tracked this bull and lost to the fickle wind three days straight, he figured this bull would eventually tire and most likely things would end in a charge. Midday day four they caught a glimpse of the bull laying down at about 40 yards, Ali took the shot as the bull stood and hit it low in the withers he thought. The bull came.....and came fast, busting limbs in a furious as a charge as he had ever experienced. He was not able to take a shot due to the cover and had to wait for the bull to clear a small thick thornbush before engaging. As the bull rounded the bush Ali was able to shoot the bull as the picture indicates in the snout just under the eye. The 550 grain woodleigh stayed in the bull and traveled down his neck and lodged under the skin on the off side shoulder. The lack of reaction to the shot puzzled Alister. He was not able with the angle and time to work the bolt and chamber a second round (where's the double?). The ZAWA scout stayed as cool as the other side of the pillow and shot the bull in the shoulder with his government issued .375 H&H as it passed him. Andreas then took his turn and shot once again in the same shoulder as the scout with his .416 Remington Magnum.

The bull died in about 800 yards with no further theatrics.

The date was 9-11 (Zambian) the date of the charge when Alister got run over was 9-11!!! (American date)"

Not loading the Lott to its full potential is a mistake. The whole reason for the Lott is the extra power it brings to the party. I think the larger enery delivery would have made a huge difference in the outcome. Having a double does not absolutely mean he would have had any better of a chance to knock the bull down and stop the charge. His first shot was not only at a lower power level, but also low on the head and missed the brain shot/spine. THAT would have ended it right there. If you carry the Lott, don't load it to Winchester power levels.

quote:

Originally posted by Woodrow S:
Not loading the Lott to its full potential is a mistake. The whole reason for the Lott is the extra power it brings to the party. I think the larger enery delivery would have made a huge difference in the outcome. Having a double does not absolutely mean he would have had any better of a chance to knock the bull down and stop the charge. His first shot was not only at a lower power level, but also low on the head and missed the brain shot/spine. THAT would have ended it right there. If you carry the Lott, don't load it to Winchester power levels.

Woodrow,

I load his ammo for him and I load 550gr Woodleighs at 2,150fps, not 500gr bullets. Any more than that is too hot of a load in the Zambian heat and gives sticky extraction, we have tested these loads extensively, the 550gr bullet at 2,150 fps is the max load which will still ensure 100% reliability. This is not .458 Win Mag level ammunition, energy-wise it is closer to a .500NE. Alister feels the trade off of roughly 150-200fps of velocity versus a max 500gr load in his Lott for 10% more bullet weight is worth it.

.458 Win Mag - 500gr bullet at 2,100 fps = 4,895 ft-lbs of energy and Taylor KO Value of 68

.458 Lott - 550gr bullet at 2,150 fps = 5,644 ft-lbs of energy and Taylor KO value of 77

.500NE - 570gr bullet at 2,150fps = 5,849 ft-lbs of energy and Taylor KO value of 89

That is a max load no doubt.I got 2126 with my lott and the 550gr Woodleigh.I shot a buff with the 500gr a-frame in the head very near the spot on the head pictured but just an inch or two above and closer to the eye.The bullet was found in the brain.The buff went down instantly.I was surprised it had not penetrated further and realized right then how important it is to use a solid on head shots.[URL= ]500gra-frame[/URL]

I was just looking at the results of a search on timed DR shooting events to asnwer the question that popped into my mind from this post:

"How fast can someone get off the second shot with a DR in DG calibers?"

MacD37 posted some time ago about his experience with his Merkel 470NE at a "Hoot N Shoot" competition.

I wonder if sometone can post some of these event times for DR vs. bolt actions for the bigger DG cartridges?

To further make things interesting, a fair question (and probably not truly answerable) would be:

If (and I don't know that the following is true, but just proposing it for consideration) a 458 bolt is faster to second shot than a 500NE DR due to recovery from recoil, which would be better in a dangerous situation such as those desribed above?

Thanks for the descriptions of these charges and the circumstances surrounding them. Very exciting! Brings back quite vivid memories of my own experiences: first with my Cape buffalo whom we ran past in the long grass and turned to face as he stood to charge; and second being surrounded by bellowing elephant and very unhappy Cape buffalo as light was fading - one unhappy bull taking a bead on me while my father was about to brain his own buff.

Neither as harrowing as those two experiences of Alister's but I could imagine either developing in a similar fashion.

So, ack to the questions:

Times of big DR vs. bolts for second shot

and

If Bigger DR is slower to second than "Smaller bolt", which would be better?

Ive never really timed it, but I simply cant imagine that a 500NE DR ( they kick a lil but not that much really) could ever be slower than a bolt gun for the second shot. Years ago I did a rapid reload 3 shot test of a .470NE DR vs a Bolt gun and the results were in favor of the bolt gun just to the 3rd shot with the DR way faster to the second. Perhaps someone with poor upper body strength would have problems with a .500NE DR but most of us would have no issue. -Rob

Every time I read more criticism on 458 Lott and that makes me doubt his reliability like cartridge for the dangerous hunting. It worries me since I possess a Ceska in the above mentioned cartridge. I hope someone 458 Lott says something positive on.

Oscar.

How much punch does the 458 Lott have? More than enough for any animal that walks the earth. Esp. with 550 grain Woodleigh solids at 2,150 fps.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:
How much punch does the 458 Lott have? More than enough for any animal that walks the earth. Esp. with 550 grain Woodleigh solids at 2,150 fps.

465H&H

Exactly

Successful Kiwi hunter Jim Frost has had his 458Win opened up over successive safaris to the Lott then opened up further to the full 3" 458Express not to gain anymore power but to gain ease of loading without compression and high pressure issues associated with the smaller cases when getting around the 2,200 fps mark with the 500gr bullet as well as his observation that the Express cartridge fits neatly into his big Brno 600 magazine without any slop and movement. His buffalos and elephants seem to drop pretty well.

Jim just places his bullets where they should be placed.

To sum it up the 458 winchester vrs lott the 458 win is the 38 spc the lott is the 357 magnum if you wanted steped up results that can only happen by a larger caliber or a larger case..

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:
Every time I read more criticism on 458 Lott and that makes me doubt his reliability like cartridge for the dangerous hunting. It worries me since I possess a Ceska in the above mentioned cartridge. I hope someone 458 Lott says something positive on.

Oscar.

Oscar,

Use the correct bullet and put it where it belongs and you will have nothing to worry about.

Poor bullet design or poor shot placement with a larger Double Rifle would not improve things. A lot (or is that "Lott" ) of people use a bad bullet for their hunting situation or can't shoot reliably. Then there is the awe @#$% situations where the shooter has good ammunition and skill and just makes a less then perfect shot due to stress, excitement, or some other reason. A lot people that take a 458 Lott to the field are not experienced hunters and their results with a rifle they do not know well gives the rifle and cartridge a bad reputation that really belongs with the poorly prepared hunter.

Best Regards,
Sid

Thanks Sid, then I am one bad experience hunters hehe, I like knowing I have a rifle capable of bringing down a charging elephant or buffalo also charged. I could not buy something bigger like a 500 or a 505 Jeffery Gibbs, first because my budget is not enough to buy one of these cartridges Ceska, and also in Spain, both are considered as war (I do not understand why) and therefore prohibited.

Regards,

Oscar.

I shoot bolt guns because I grew up with them and that is what I'm comfortable with. I'm a lefty shooter, but right eye dominant so not much good with a shotgun. That's another reason for the turnbolt rather than a DR.

A few years ago Krieghof offered me a LH 470 for about $7000, a very good deal. I went with a M70 458 Lott instead and have no regrets. I have about $7000 into the M70 as it is mostly custom, except the stock, so it wasn't the money.

I've taken only three buff, two with the Lott, one with M70 375. One taken with the Lott was going away, and the Lott penetrated all the way through with a Barnes solid 500 gr. I practice quite a bit, esp. off hand.

Nothing personal, but "missing" with the first shot with a Lott isn't going to be necessarily remedied by using a double.

And if the second shot from the double is flubbed, what then?

I'm not saying I could have done better, or any of that rot, but a double isn't necessarily going to "fix" anything.

So what can be considered the 458 Lott cartridge, a cartridge to resolving a difficult situation?.

Oscar

quote:

So what can be considered the 458 Lott cartridge, a cartridge to resolving a difficult situation?.

Its not going to zap them like lightning but it will do but so will a 416

OMG so even for pro's, dangerous game hunting is still dangerous

Regards bolt actions versus double I think any difference is easily absorbed by how shit or with how little practice the ''average'' hunter shoots period.

There is not a lot of interest in what I see as the business end of the sport.Moving targets, snap shooting, shooting from awkward positions, or possibly the most important, becoming excellent at fast boltwork or second shots.

This is proven by the fact there are so few threads on it, so few vids on it, so even if we do it, no one considers it worth mentioning.

We barely have an occasional post mentioning testing it every few years.

This to me is crazy as these things are what matters in the sport. We spend hours of practice getting our clay shooting good to survive the dangers of a piece of dirt moving right to left, or the terrors of a bird on the wing

But for the sport of big animals that can kill us, apparently generating two million hours literature on ''load developement'' and a few fucking shots from the bench to sight the scope in is what really matters

I don't think it matters which type you use, as long as you have some mastery.

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Nothing personal, but "missing" with the first shot with a Lott isn't going to be necessarily remedied by using a double.

And if the second shot from the double is flubbed, what then?

I'm not saying I could have done better, or any of that rot, but a double isn't necessarily going to "fix" anything.

Will,

Watch the video again of Ivan Carter being charged by a bull elephant that one of his clients wounded. Now tell me that he could have gotten off a second shot with a bolt gun in Lott fast enough to save his life. Will a bolt gun or double give you a better chance of saving your life? It all depends on the situation. You pay your money and take your chances.

465H&H

IMO,double or bolt once the first shot is fired there is a time consuming process that applies to both.You need to recover from recoil and find the front bead,get it in the rear sight and get back on target-not that easily done fast.The bolt can be worked during this time.A double is fast with the second if you are not really aiming and are instead relying on luck which I guess at times works especially at point black.

For all those na sayers out there try this experiment. If you think a bolt is faster at point blank range. Put both fingers into your double rifles trigger guard (assuming you went with a double trigger DG double) and point the double at the target assuming its almost on top of you and pull real hard. Chances are you'll fire two shots in less than a second. yes it will hurt and you'll get pushed back but it will happen a lot quicker than cycling a bolt gun. Again if speed is the main question the double wins. Well placed shooting should prevent the problem in the first place. THEREFORE PRACTICE...... PRACTICE and PRACTICE some more! I lost my ELK this year for that very reason I took my 500 Jeffery and when push came to shove I blew the shot because I didn't practice enough with it. If you don't learn to shoot well then buy more life insurance.

Brad

Shootaway, again you speak of things that you have no experience with. You obviously have no experience with shooting a large caliber double rifle.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Nothing personal, but "missing" with the first shot with a Lott isn't going to be necessarily remedied by using a double.

And if the second shot from the double is flubbed, what then?

I'm not saying I could have done better, or any of that rot, but a double isn't necessarily going to "fix" anything.

Will,

Watch the video again of Ivan Carter being charged by a bull elephant that one of his clients wounded. Now tell me that he could have gotten off a second shot with a bolt gun in Lott fast enough to save his life. Will a bolt gun or double give you a better chance of saving your life? It all depends on the situation. You pay your money and take your chances.

465H&H

The only point I was TRYING to make was having a double isn't necessarily going to save your bacon. Like you say, it just all depends.

This is the question I am struggling with personally.

I can recycle a bolt pretty fast. I would guess faster than most by far based upon comments I have gotten over the years. However, I don't believe I can fire 2 shots faster than I could with a double.

So the question is am I better off with a gun that I can shoot 2 shots quickly or am I better off having a gun that will hold between 4 & 6 rounds (depending on the gun)?

The one time I had a really close call on a charge, I may well have bought the farm with a double. I have seen situations (such as the charge Ivan encountered referred to above) where the shooter may have bought the farm with a bolt.

Some of the PH's swear by the double. Others want a bolt. I just e mailed a PH I know pretty well. He is good, real good. He wants a bolt only.

The hell of it is that we are trying to protect against something that rarely happens but when it does the right choice may save your life.

Did anyone see the (I think)Tracks Across Africa where the buff charged from close range? As I recall (perhaps incorrectly) it was not wounded. There is no chance that the PH could have gotten off a second shot had the buff kept coming straight for him. He would have been better off with a double in that situation IMHO. The next time it could be the other way around. Can you say group of angry cow elephants?

Then other considerations come into play. Personally, I believe I am a lot more likely to wound a buff at 80 yards with a double that I would with my scoped 416.

What to do? What to do? What to do?

I want a double. However, I really need to resolve these questions before I part with the money. I am struggling.

By the way, my comment about the Tracks show was not intended as criticism. No one could have gotten off 2 shots with a bolt.

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Nothing personal, but "missing" with the first shot with a Lott isn't going to be necessarily remedied by using a double.

And if the second shot from the double is flubbed, what then?

I'm not saying I could have done better, or any of that rot, but a double isn't necessarily going to "fix" anything.

Will,

Watch the video again of Ivan Carter being charged by a bull elephant that one of his clients wounded. Now tell me that he could have gotten off a second shot with a bolt gun in Lott fast enough to save his life. Will a bolt gun or double give you a better chance of saving your life? It all depends on the situation. You pay your money and take your chances.

465H&H

Any chance of a link to that video? Thanks.

I do wonder about the heat issue as i and others
have fired many 500gr factory and hand loads
in the Texas summer with temp in excess of 100F
and 90% Humitdy with no effect that I have noticed. Many a factory 500gr at 2500 have done well down there. Please tell me if i am missing something here.

quote:

Originally posted by John Frederick:

quote:

Originally posted by 465H&H:

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
Nothing personal, but "missing" with the first shot with a Lott isn't going to be necessarily remedied by using a double.

And if the second shot from the double is flubbed, what then?

I'm not saying I could have done better, or any of that rot, but a double isn't necessarily going to "fix" anything.

Will,

Watch the video again of Ivan Carter being charged by a bull elephant that one of his clients wounded. Now tell me that he could have gotten off a second shot with a bolt gun in Lott fast enough to save his life. Will a bolt gun or double give you a better chance of saving your life? It all depends on the situation. You pay your money and take your chances.

465H&H

Any chance of a link to that video? Thanks.

It was posted on here so a search should find it. I'm just too lazy to do it. That is one of the joys of being retired, you can be lazy with out feeling quilty!

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
This is the question I am struggling with personally.

I can recycle a bolt pretty fast. I would guess faster than most by far based upon comments I have gotten over the years. However, I don't believe I can fire 2 shots faster than I could with a double.

So the question is am I better off with a gun that I can shoot 2 shots quickly or am I better off having a gun that will hold between 4 & 6 rounds (depending on the gun)?

The one time I had a really close call on a charge, I may well have bought the farm with a double. I have seen situations (such as the charge Ivan encountered referred to above) where the shooter may have bought the farm with a bolt.

Some of the PH's swear by the double. Others want a bolt. I just e mailed a PH I know pretty well. He is good, real good. He wants a bolt only.

The hell of it is that we are trying to protect against something that rarely happens but when it does the right choice may save your life.

Did anyone see the (I think)Tracks Across Africa where the buff charged from close range? As I recall (perhaps incorrectly) it was not wounded. There is no chance that the PH could have gotten off a second shot had the buff kept coming straight for him. He would have been better off with a double in that situation IMHO. The next time it could be the other way around. Can you say group of angry cow elephants?

Then other considerations come into play. Personally, I believe I am a lot more likely to wound a buff at 80 yards with a double that I would with my scoped 416.

What to do? What to do? What to do?

I want a double. However, I really need to resolve these questions before I part with the money. I am struggling.

By the way, my comment about the Tracks show was not intended as criticism. No one could have gotten off 2 shots with a bolt.

I'm glad this is getting back on topic.

I should have titled this thread differently as the question at hand is not whether a .458 Lott has enough punch, it does, but rather in a charge situation is one better off with a double, he just happened to be shooting a Lott and I thought this went hand in hand with Larry's original thread. Alister had two close charges this past season and he feels he would been better off with a double.

A couple of posters have questioned the placement of his shot. I would agree that the shot placement was off had it been an initial shot on an unwounded bull but that wasn't what this was. This shot was taken at less than a meter in heavy cover on a wounded buffalo coming at full tilt with his head weaving and bobbing, he got this shot off and feels he could have put another into the side of its head as it went by had he been carrying a double.

I know I have never faced a buff charge and I don't know how many here have but it is a pretty damn good shot to me considering the circumstances.


P.S. Larry, yes, you want the double.

Andy:

I respect anyone that can hit a buff in that situation. There is serious pressure there with no small amount of nerves involved I am certain.

After hearing these stories and spending several hours with Alister, I would rely on him to protect my backside without any hesitation.

A lot of guys would freeze. I was once charged by a rhino. After I shot my last round, I ran. I could see the rhino falling out of the corner of my eyes. The PH and the fame manager had run behind a tree leaving me hanging out there alone. I am betting Alister would not have left me hanging.

Larry,

I was in no way referring to you when I said some had seemingly questioned the shot.

Your assessment of Alister is spot on.

Thanks.

Andy

I know you weren't. I spoke to Steve this morning.

I may well spend 3 weeks with them in Zambia before long.

John Frederick:

Go to You Tube and do a search for "Ivan Carter elephant charge" and you will find a real close call. Not the one I was thinking of but real close and personal regardless.

quote:

I know you weren't. I spoke to Steve this morning.

I may well spend 3 weeks with them in Zambia before long.

Oh no....you'll never be the same!!!!!!!!!!

Gary
DRSS
NRA Lifer
DSC

Gary:

I have 2 ex wives that would say that is a good thing!

At the last hoot and shoot I won the dangerous water jug event. 2 gallon jugs about 4 foot apart on wooden stands. The time starts on the first shot. My first shot destroyed the jug, knocking the second off the stand, I followed it down and waited for it to hit the ground,smashing it with my second shot. a little less than 1.5 seconds, (it seem like the second jug took forever to hit the ground, I was thinking about shooting it on the fall). I was shooting my 470 chapris, scoped with a nikon african set on 1x, woodleigh 500 sp and 86 gr of rl 15. When in practice I gotten two well placed shots on paper at 15 yards from a low gun at just a hair over 1 second.

When I was 23 or 24 I started shooting what we called combat matchs with handgun's (long before IPSIC matches came about), add some 3 gun matches (handgun, riot gun and assult rifle)over the years, and a lot of sporting clays. I have learned one thing " Train until you do it with out thought and then just let yourself go ". I have shot my best and fastest when I thought there was no chance to win and just threw caution to the wind. The power of the human mind and it the speed it can react is seldom used to its potential. I use to shoot with Jerry Mitchalet (not sure how he spells it) back in the early 70's. Jerry was so fast you could not count his shots, he would shoot a revolver because a 1911 was too slow , he had to wait on it to eject and feed the next round. Jerry could take 6 plates off a rack in 1.5 seconds on average days and faster on good days. He told me he see's a clear sight picture on each shot. He has made his living as a shooting pro since the 80's and hold's several world records. Jerry is a natural, but the big differance between him and us was ( He would walk out his back door ,every evening and fire a 100 or so rounds into large steel bullet trap he had made that had a full size resetable plate rack in front of it). That is how you become a champion, train until you can do it without thought.

Sorry about the long post,but this stuff gets me going after all these years!


JD

Larryshores,

I went through the same mental gyrations in trying to decide what was better (bolt or double)for hunting buff and elephants when I first started hunting DG over 25 years ago. Here is what I came up with initially and then modified by my hunting experiences over those 25 years.

I am actually comfortable when using either bolt or double rifle for hunting either species. My choice has to do with selecting the action type that provides me the maximum safety and gives me the best chance of taking the animal of my choice. I prefer a large caliber bolt rifle for the hunting of buff, except when following up a wounded animal. Then a large caliber double is my choice. The scope sighted bolt rifle allows me to take shots that would be chancy with an iron sighted double. It has been estimated that if you use an iron sighted double you may have to give up 40 or 60% of your shots. That may include a 45" monster bull on the other side of a herd over 100 yards away screened by brush. I am not willing to pass on that shot if it can be made with the scoped rifle.

For elephant, I believe a large caliber double will provide a higher degree of safety than a bolt rifle. Why? Elephant cows will charge more readily than any other DG animal, in my experience. It seems like the matriarch cows are constantly in a state of PMS. All to often it isn't the herd member you have shot that charges, it is another cow most likely the matriarch of the herd that will come for you to protect her herd. That charge may come from an unseen direction and she can be on you at very close range. I have had two such cow charges under those exact circumstances. Both had to be shot. It is something you must expect and be prepared for when hunting in cow herds. There is no doubt that the two very fast shots from a double can be a life saver if this happens. The secret in stopping any charge from any animal is to let the animal get very close for the first shot and to make that first shot count. The closer it is, the more likely that first shot will be successful. In Zim an elephant must be within 10 meters for you to claim self defense. If you take that first shot at 10 meters or less and your first shot doesn't knock down or turn the charge there is no time to get a second shot off from a bolt rifle. You are at her mercy and cow elephants aren't known to posses a lot of mercy. With a double and a practiced double rifle shooter you have that second shot at about three to four yards to stop her. From what I have seen the success rate of frontal brain shots on elephant is somewhere between 40 and 60% depending on the amount of experience of the shooter and how much luck he has. So it is very realistic to expect to miss that first shot. Here bullet weight and bullet diameter count. The heavier and bigger the bullet, assuming adequate velocity will give you a better chance to stop the animal. Where a larger magazine capacity bolt rifle has an advantage is if you are charged by multiple animals. But it is all a matter of percentages. Multiple animal charges are really quite rare while single animal charges are much more common. So I will play the percentages on elephant.

465H&H

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Gary:

I have 2 ex wives that would say that is a good thing!

+1! And one...that doesn't give a $h!t either way!!!

quote:

I prefer a large caliber bolt rifle for the hunting of buff, except when following up a wounded animal. Then a large caliber double is my choice.

quote:

For elephant, I believe a large caliber double will provide a higher degree of safety than a bolt rifle.

I say take both along for the walk...you carry one and let the tracker carry one.

I have done just that several times.

465H&H

465 H&H
I think you have provided a good expose on the pros and cons of the bolt and double when up against buff and ele under varying conditions. Of course many will disagree and if Karamojo Bell were alive he would be laughing his head off while he showed you how to drop ele with brain shots from one of his trusty 7mm Rigbys.

The one thing I find you have not taken account of with modern day hunting when making your observations is that there will always be the PH and usually others standing along side with rifles when facing a charge and from the videos I have watched on this forum and others, usually the PH plays a big hand in putting the charging buff or ele down so it does not come down to just the hunter alone with his gun. The other thing I have noticed from the various videos I have seen is that not many double exponents can or do reload quickly after they have fired their two shots whereas most bolt gun users, both PHs and hunters, quickly crank another shell in even when the beast is down. It just seems a natural thing to do with a bolt which of course most hunters are very familiar with using. The double user seems to hesitate with his empty double before deciding to reload and even then I've observed them fumbling around their belt to find more shells to stoke into the double all the while their eyes off the game. One or two I have seen actually seem quite inept at handling their double when the pressure is on. And this is one of the criticisms of "amateur" double users that has been made by some including PHs, in that unless you are using them all the time, many struggle when faced with using doubles under pressure and off the range.

Of course I will be doing a disservice to some double users and apologise to them right now but I think they will be far from the majority.

?????

How much punch does a 458 Lott have vs are you better off with a double?

Where lies the logic in this question?

A double what ?

Is it a double with the same "punch" as a 458 Lott ? ie for arguements sake a double 458 Lott ( if there could be such a thing)

So the question then:

Are two " non- incapaciting" shots given in short succession better than one " non incapacitating" shot?

Do two wrongs make a right?

or are we to assume that the single shot given are non- incapacitating and the shots given with the double incapacitating?????

This of course assuming that a 458 Lott does not have enough "punch" ?

Hell only on AR ?

In my experience 45 cals fired from doubles have less "punch" than a 458 cals fired from a boltgun Lott, simply because regulating a double more than often leads the 45 cal being loaded to less velocity and capacity than the bolt gun where regulation is not at issue.

What is also evident from many opinions by many proponents of doubles is that somehow just shooting a bullet from a double gives it that "magical punch" even if the actual ballistics of that bullet fired is potentially far less effective than the bullet fired from a bolt gun?

What can be said is that by shooting off two shots in short succession you double your chance of rendering a incapacitating shot vs firing off a single shot.