The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores How Much Punch does a .458 Lott Have or Are You Better Off with a Double?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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ALF: The basic question I think Andy was trying to raise was whether, all things being equal, is one better off with a bolt gun or a double. | |||
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that's what I like about my Searcy 470NE Double Rifle. 470NE DR= BOOM-BOOM! 458 Lott= BOOM, clacka-racka-clacka BOOM. Alf: read the part about not having the time to work a bolt. Do we have a colicky baby here? Rich BOOM-BOOM, that's got a nice ring to it. | |||
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How fast? Here are a few of the vintagers events the ele shooting is a H&H Royal vintage 450/500 The second is a 577 William Evans Mike This is the charging buffalo.You have less then a second to acquire and get off 2 shots in the lane http://picasaweb.google.com/lh...1KSQ?feat=directlink http://picasaweb.google.com/lh...CGnQ?feat=directlink | |||
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Go to Heym USA site and look at the video of the gent firing a 404 just like mine.....he does quite well! But nothing faster than a double for the first 2. Gary DRSS NRA Lifer DSC | |||
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+1 | |||
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eagle, I didn't fail to take in account what you posted above (rifle handling ability). If you will notice, I gave COLOR:RED]MY[/COLOR]reasons for selecting a rifle action type for me. Consequently, what problems others have with handling their rifles didn't enter into the discussion. Also I never anywhere in that post suggested that any one else make the same selection. I only gave my opinion for me and why I have done so. Also while you have a valid point on clients rifle handling abilities, I will point out that several PHs have told me as well as posted here on AR that too many American hunters take for ever to get the shot off, fire and then stand around watching what affect that shot had instead of reloading and putting in a second shot. I believe that is partialy caused because American hunters do just that most of the time while hunting deer. They don't want to shoot again for fear of shooting up the meat. Watch a a hunting show on Saturday morning TV and see how often it happens. You will see the same thing on TRA shows when hunting buff or elephants. Most double rifle hunters spend a huge amount pf money on their doubles vs what bolt gun hunters spend. As a whole and on average I think they spend more time shooting their guns then bolt gun users. Now there are always exceptions to the rule and I am sure everyone reading this is one of them. 465H&H | |||
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That second video illustrates Gary's point to a T and I think demonstrates exactly Alister's thoughts as to what he could have done had he been carrying a double instead of his .458 Lott bolt action. | |||
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while on the topic can someone PM me with load date for 458 lott w/350gr and 500 solids. I have a Ruger#1 and a CZ. | |||
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Sorry 465H&H I should have started another paragraph after my first sentence as I did not intend to imply you had failed to take into account rifle handling ability. I was just making the point with the first sentence that while I agreed in general with your appraisal of the bolt rifle versus double, you were making those points as if only the hunter was in picture and that he alone had to rely on his choice of gun to put down a charge. of course this was true back in the "old days" but not now where, as I pointed out, there is always a PH and perhaps others armed and in a position to help stop a charge if the hunter does not. In fact many times it appears both the hunter and PH are shooting together in a charge situation. The rest of my post was just putting forward my observations from the various videos and also stories that are posted on this forum and elsewhere. Again I don't disagree with your last paragraph in your last post, I think you have summed up the situation well for many hunters. | |||
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Yes but take it a step further with a BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM-BOOM. An infernal semi-auto which I'm sure many would take to Africa if legal. Myself its a BOOM.........clacka............racka............clacka BOOM. I'm a lefty and always use a right-hand bolt gun. Do I feel handicapped, no, I have just learned to put that first shot where it counts everytime. | |||
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.. go to Hodgdon's Powder site . they have quite a good site . I was shooting 350 gr X bullets moly tumbled @ 2700 fps and the same with the 350 gr Speer mollied with a max book load of H 4895 . and with AAC 2230 . The 2230 load I worked up starting from my 458 Win mag load . My Lott was a CZ550 American .. Nice loads not bad at all in the recoil dept. Far easier to shoot than the 500 gr load @ 2300 f p s . .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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Thanx for the clarification. While your PH is almost always present when your hunting, there will be times when you are alone. A couple of years ago a PH left his client with a downed elephant while he and the trackers went to retrieve the cruiser and cut a bush road in for the recovery. While they were away the cow herd returned and killed the client. In another case that I heard of a client went off into the jesse for natures call and ran into a buff with a snare on it's leg. Luckily the buff ran in the opposite direction. In my case the PH and I walked about 50 yards from the Cruiser to an unseen leopard bait, In the grass about 15 yards from us came a series of hair raising lion roars. The Ph didn't bring his rifle along since he didn't think it necessary. Luckily, I had my double and the lioness decided that an ass chewing and warning was enough. On several occasions I was in a position to put in follow up shots but because of brush the PH couldn't and vice versa. I always believe in being equipped to handle any situation that may come up. 465H&H | |||
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Did the client keep his rifle? If so...did he try to defend hisself? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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I think we should ask if you are going to use a bolt gun instead of a double (Is the 458 enough). The .500 and the 505 hit much harder, if you are most likely only going to get only one shot off with a bolt gun, would you want more. I know it is harder to shoot the 500's as fast or as well as the 45's or 416's . Odds are better that a marginal hit with the 500 will most likely slow the animal down enough to off set the little extra time it takes to recover from the extra recoil, hopefully giving you time to get a second shot off. I am speaking of a center mass hit through the vitals not in the foot. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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JD, You pose an interesting question. Flip a coin and you will get your answer. 465H&H | |||
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This is the stupidest thing I've read on AR in a while. "Relying on luck" to shoot a double fast!!! Are you kidding me?? Go Duke!! | |||
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What's so stupid about that? In so many years of following AR,I have never seen a video or any kind of demonstration of the second follow-up shot,from a double, fired quickly and accurately at 25-50yds.No one has shown us that this can be done.Let's see someone take a double and put 2 in or near the bullseye at 40yds and then another two and then again and again.Have you seen such a thing? I get the feeling that people believe that if you own a double it can easily be done. | |||
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I can do it all day long, you seen me shoot. Any more questions. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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I said quick.Put the target at 35yds and lets see two rds in 2 or 3 seconds. | |||
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What's so stupid about that? In so many years of following AR,I have never seen a video or any kind of demonstration of the second follow-up shot,from a double, fired quickly and accurately at 25-50yds.No one has shown us that this can be done.Let's see someone take a double and put 2 in or near the bullseye at 40yds and then another two and then again and again.Have you seen such a thing? I get the feeling that people believe that if you own a double it can easily be done.[/QUOTE] Your statement is completely STUPID. Come down to the next Hoot-n-Shoot in Houston, and watch the various gentlemen that really know how to shoot double rifles. Better yet, video it and post it on the web your self. Bring your favorite big bore bolt gun, and shoot against the double rifles. While you are pullin' and pushin' on your bolt, they will busting their SECOND DWJ (Dangerous Water Jug)!!!! Go Duke!! | |||
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at the last hoot and shoot 2 round in under 1.5 sec ,and I was waiting for the 2nd jug to hit the ground. If the 2nd jug had not been thrown buy the 1st jug explodeing I would have been closer to 1 sec for 2 shoots. Thats with a scoped 470 double rifle and full power loads of 500 gr woodleigh's. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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To make things fair all around,we should increase the distance by double for someone who is very strong and big and is not effected by recoil.You would fall into this category,JD. | |||
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Shootaway, The question isn't how fast you can get two aimed shots off at 40 yards but how fast you can get two aimed shots of at less than 5 yards. An animal at 40 yards can't hurt you but one that is charging you at less than 5 yards and is about to make you very sorry you went huntng today. 465H&H | |||
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I don't know if he had his rifle with him but I can't imagine anyone not having one in those circumstances or a PH leaving him without one. 465H&H | |||
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If an animal is charging you and within 5 yds I don't think I could get in a breath of air let alone two rifle shots. | |||
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Then I suggest that you not hunt dangerous game.  465H&H | |||
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Me either...but stranger things have occured! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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Just for the record...I can't imagine any rifleman NOT thinking a Lott was enough gun. I know we all have our caliber likes and dislikes...but serously...a .458 Lott is enough to handle anything that comes down the pike. Heck Ivan Carter has been carrying that .450 Heym for a while and he is still alive. The double vs. bolt argument will go on forever! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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.Hence the need for a 458 Garand . . I have gone over and over this close range senireo with bolt vrs double . I would about need to wear out a double before I felt beyond confident I would switch triggers in a bad situation automatically . I know single trigger doubles arn't as (cool) as single trigger doubles but if I were togo to a double it would be a Kriegoff single trigger in500 N E . 3 1/4 but 3" would be fine also. I have no idea if that option is available . .If it can,t be grown , its gotta be mined .... | |||
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This is what I think, which now seems that 458s, they cannot knock down an elephant or a buffalo with property, when with 458 Winchester Magnum infinity of elephants has been hunted and even with 416 Rigby. Now if it does not have 500 Jeffery, 577 Niter, T-Rex etc... you do not take a weapon adapted for Africa. At least lately I have this impression. Sometimes I regret having acquired 458 Lott. Jeje is like a carbine of compressed air. Oscar. --------------------------- Traducción por PROMT™ http://www.promt.es I am Spanish My forum:www.armaslargasdecaza.com | |||
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In answer to George, I believe that I saw some videos of getting off the second shot from a double both quickly and accurately at a moving Cape buffalo target on the Heym site. The links were posted here some time ago and if I find them, I will link to them. NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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The way to learn is get a nice 12 ga sxs shotgun with double triggers (make sure it fit's), join a skeet/trap club or better yet sporting clay club. have at it. 6 months and a few hundred rounds no issues. It will make you a good instive shot in close with your double. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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My Dad gave me a Stevens SideXSide double trigger shotgun as a kid. Since graduated to a Win 21. Been shootin quail, ducks, dove, rabbits and every other varmint one can think of that a kid could shoot all my life. Now I shoot dove with a Springfield double trigger SXS .410 . Really keeps me tuned in for instinctive shooting with double triggers and 2 barrels. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ J. Lane Easter, DVM A born Texan has instilled in his system a mind-set of no retreat or no surrender. I wish everyone the world over had the dominating spirit that motivates Texans.– Billy Clayton, Speaker of the Texas House No state commands such fierce pride and loyalty. Lesser mortals are pitied for their misfortune in not being born in Texas.— Queen Elizabeth II on her visit to Texas in May, 1991. | |||
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This is the first gun my father bought me- an inexpensive O/U 12 guage shotgun.It has seen more hunting than any gun I own.It has two triggers.i think it cost around 500 dollars over 30 yrs ago.[URL=  ]O/U[/URL][URL= ]engraving[/URL] | |||
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Is the 458 Lott adequate for most professional hunters? Of course it is (a PH who specializes in elephant in thick jess may well choose a 50 caliber). What is best for a PH may well not be what is best for a client. I think most people confuse this fact. We are not PH's and our jobs are different. The three most important factors in a successful buffalo hunt are 1)first shot placement, 2) where the first shot goes, and, and, 3)where the animal is hit by the first shot. Although doubles are a lot of fun, they are not nearly as flexible as bolts. The vast and overwhelming majority of clients (me too) will place the first shot more accurately with a scoped bolt action rifle. First shot placement is the job of the client. Followup shot placement is the job of the PH. These are very different. In thick cover, where ranges are very short, a PH may well be better off with a double. At such ranges, a scope would be worthless anyway. Of course, the ideal situation would be to have someone pull a golf bag around with you. Just as the golfer can choose a particular club, you could reach in and pull out the appropriate rifle. Come to think of it, some of the old time elephant hunters would carry a lighter weight "medium bore" in 45 caliber and have someone else carry a 577 for use in the thick stuff. Is the 458 Lott adequate? If it isn't most of us are in trouble. | |||
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I can't disagree with any thing you have said. I will add that my double wears a 1x5 nikon 30 mm scope that I shoot with both eyes open, it is faster than my irons ( I am becomeing a old geezer before my time, your eyes may be different) I can turn up the scope and have no disavandage over my bolt guns other than weight. At 1x I can shot it up close and be as fast as a aimed shot with Irons. If I had to shot insitive it not a problem, kind of like useing the old red dots, that you could not see through, you keep both eyes open lock on the target and let fly. I have heard that a hunters job is different than the ph's. "He's there to bail you out of trouble." The truth is that he's there to put you on game and to keep you out of trouble, but if the shit hits the fan , you better be able to fight like a unit and pull your own weight. I would never ask or expect any man , "be he a ph. tracker or hunting partner" to put him self in harms way and not be prepared to stand next to him and hold my own or go down swinging. I plan to carry my 470 scoped , with the scoped 505 and in the bag. Thats the best of both worlds, I can break clay targets at 200 with the 505, At 75 and under I am deadly and very fast with the 470. I can pull the scope " claw mounts" and point shoot without useing the sights very well to 10 yards and I can still use the irons for minute of buff out to 100 if a shot were to present it self on a wounded buff. On a unwouned buff I am useing the scope for the first shot. JD JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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Andy, Kind of interesting take for Ali. I remember talking about this with him over in Zambia a couple of years ago. At that time, he was not particularly fond of doubles, telling me that among other things, they were too expensive, not all that accurate, and that while quick with 2 shots, he felt a good man with a bolt would do better over 3-5 shots than the double man. He also was telling me that having the multiple rounds in the gun was important to him. Ali is unbelievably good with that .458 and irons as it is. He was hitting tree limbs out in the river at 300-400 yards. However, as we all know, things go downhill pretty quickly in an emergency. The buff were not hit in the CNS, and its pretty unlikely hitting them where they were hit with a .50BMG would have stopped them any faster. So what is he saying? I think he's saying at point blank range, he feels that for him, 2 shots have a better chance of hitting the CNS than trying to take a bit more time and get a little better sight picture on one shot. Isn't this the classic argument about hitting where you want to hit vs. just hitting the target? | |||
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In theory. Problem is for a lot of people its this Pause, Pause,shake, steady, pause, psych-up, boom Then steady, Pause,again slightly less, boom. Plenty of time for some clackety clackety bolt actioning in there if you want. Just going off some of the incredibly shit gun handling and testing I see at the range and on youtube footage. | |||
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All true Doc but you forgot to mention how BORING the Lott is.  It's ugly, has no history. It'a just a bit longer .458 Win mag.  Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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The lott is still working at making history and doing a good job.It's like the 375H&H is the standard and the lott the heavy duty bolt gun cartridge. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores How Much Punch does a .458 Lott Have or Are You Better Off with a Double?
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