Greetings from Reno. Last night I had dinner with group of people. Pretty much all AR members. I really enjoyed it.

Directly across the table from me was Alister Norton. He shared with us a tale of him being hammered by a buff. I will briefly recount that story.

A group was looking for the tracks of a loan bull that was dragging a snare. The tracks were lost and the trackers were looking. He no sooner warned them about staying away from these groups of bushes when the buff came at him from a few feet. He got off one shot before the buff hit him. He went flying as did his gun. He fell on the buff and managed to grab it. He was holding on to the back legs when the client shot the bull off of him. In fact he shot twice.

Now the interesting part. The client had a 458 Lott. He said when the client shot, he could feel the energy of the shot coursing through the buffalo and the entire buffalo swayed upon impact. For him to be in this situation and notice this is nothing short of remarkable IMHO.

Thanks goodness the client had a cool head and Alister was not hurt seriously.

I would believe he felt the animal's muscular contractions at the shot and not anything directly generated by the bullet's impact.

Hell of a story though. Last week of deer season my best friend did the classic "walk up to the buck and grab the horns" ploy on a deer that wasn't dead after all. He had a merry dance before the buck broke free.

He was hunting with his eleven year old son who he had always cautioned about making certain the animal dead before approaching. For whatever reason he didn't follow his own instruction the one time his buck wasn't spent. He got beat up a little and fortunately the buck fled instead of fought. It piled up and agan and died 50 yds away.

The Lott doesn't have any more punch than a 470.

Agree re the muscle contractions as it reacts to the shot.

Having shot a few Water buffalo up close, I HAVE seen the effect of a 500 Nitro and the waves travel down the body but not with any other cartridge.

Holding onto the legs of a Buffalo and it being hit with a 500 gn bullet, well, I reckon the some of the energy would spread out in a wave but to feel it as opposed to Muscle's contracting ?

.

5900 ft.lbs of energy with a 500 grain bullet beats most 470's that I know of hands down. More equivilent to a 500 nitro in energy anyway

quote:

Originally posted by Will:
The Lott doesn't have any more punch than a 470.

dead out wrong.

I have seen my 470 push a 500 gr bullet at 2200FPS (Factory Federal) across my Oehler
My 458 Lott has seen a 500 gr at 2340 FPS so go Figure??
Most folks think 2200 is enough.

Thats what we are saying, the Lott is more powerful. Nothing wrong with the 470 either.

The .458 Lott will do the job, no doubt about it. I have used it to kill Cape buffalo.

Still, I found that it's not as powerful or effective, at least in my experience, as I had been led to believe it was.

I found that it kills about as quickly as a .375, which is really not that quick, absent a hit to the central nervous system.

I now use a .500 A-Square for the simple reason that I want to put them down, meaning incapacitate them, with one shot, right there and then. With a good shoulder shot, the .500 will do that with authority.

Follow ups may be needed, but I have found that one solid body shot with my .500 turns their legs to jelly.

The difference is simple physics, I think. Bullet diameter, weight, velocity and energy. 0.458 vs. 0.510 inch. 500 vs. 570 grains. 2,250 vs. 2,500 fps. 5,800 vs. 8,000 ft.-lbs.

Don't get me wrong, I would feel well armed with a Lott. But I prefer more, since I am convinced that, as far as elephant and buff are concerned, there really is no such thing as too much gun.

Since when did the .458 Lott become the hammer of Thor? I always have considered it only what the .458 win was reliably supposed to be. I'd rate it maybe 100fps over a .470 NE. If you want real smack down power,yup the .500a2 is a major step up. Personally real smack down starts at .60.-Rob

I watched a Tracks Across Africa where a gentleman took multiple shots at a Buffalo with a 505 Gibbs. I believe it was the gentleman that has all the nice collection of double rifles. This particular rifle was a bolt. In an event, it was a while before the Buff cratered. 50 cals do not seem to be a guarantee.
I think the guarantee is to catch the Buffalo (or any animal) before he sees you. No adrenaline running!

Having shot game with 500Nitro, 505 Gibbs, 50 cals don't kill just because they are 50 cal.

BUT, it does give you a bit more margin for error !!!

The effect IMHO is more than .458 bullets of the same weight.

Regardless of whether he felt the energy or contractions, it is most impressive to me that he felt the entire buff sway.

A lister is f'ing lucky. This bull came from real close. Probably not enough time to shoulder the rifle. No warning. Secondly, he was damn lucky to have a client that didn't lose his mind. He was also lucky where he landed. Had he landed on the ground, it may have much worse for him.

I have a 458 Lott. I have yet to shoot anything with it yet. I understand some of these comments about killing power. I feel the same about 7mm vs 270

Sorry, you guys are all wet.


I don't know what cartridge equals that hammer of Thor, but it must be bigger than .458, .470 or .500.

Not even the 600 can stop them "DRT" without a perfect hit....

quote:

Originally posted by wankell:
Buff with 600NE

I don't think anyone was saying that the 458 Lott was the hammer of Thor. Just that it yielded more foot lbs of energy than a 470 nitro. TKO of each is dang near identical. 75 to 74 rounded. Obviously the 50,60 and 700's have more knock out power.

you still have to hit them.

Please feel free to tell me I am all wet but does that Taylor TKO value only refer to the impact of "solid" projectiles? It seems I read that once upon a time. Has no bearing on the effect of softs.
I would think with the quality of modern day softs. The energy figures associated a little higher velocity (say 2400 FPS) would have some visable effect on the target relative to a same weight projectile at say 2150.

quote:

Originally posted by bigdoggy700:
I don't think anyone was saying that the 458 Lott was the hammer of Thor. Just that it yielded more foot lbs of energy than a 470 nitro. TKO of each is dang near identical. 75 to 74 rounded. Obviously the 50,60 and 700's have more knock out power.

quote:

Originally posted by larryshores:
Regardless of whether he felt the energy or contractions, it is most impressive to me that he felt the entire buff sway.

A lister is f'ing lucky. This bull came from real close. Probably not enough time to shoulder the rifle. No warning. Secondly, he was damn lucky to have a client that didn't lose his mind. He was also lucky where he landed. Had he landed on the ground, it may have much worse for him.

I have a 458 Lott. I have yet to shoot anything with it yet. I understand some of these comments about killing power. I feel the same about 7mm vs 270

He emailed me about this shortly after it happened, he is now in the market for a double as he feels had been armed with one he would have gotten off a second shot and the entire incident would possibly have been averted. Can't say that I disagree.

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Please feel free to tell me I am all wet but does that Taylor TKO value only refer to the impact of "solid" projectiles? It seems I read that once upon a time. Has no bearing on the effect of softs.

The "all wet" comment was tongue in cheek.

Taylor's KO values were meant to compare the effects of solids on head shot elephant.

quote:

how much punch

Very little ... basically a toy for rookies.

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
The .458 Lott will do the job, no doubt about it. I have used it to kill Cape buffalo.

Still, I found that it's not as powerful or effective, at least in my experience, as I had been led to believe it was.

I found that it kills about as quickly as a .375, which is really not that quick, absent a hit to the central nervous system.

I now use a .500 A-Square for the simple reason that I want to put them down, meaning incapacitate them, with one shot, right there and then. With a good shoulder shot, the .500 will do that with authority.

Follow ups may be needed, but I have found that one solid body shot with my .500 turns their legs to jelly.

The difference is simple physics, I think. Bullet diameter, weight, velocity and energy. 0.458 vs. 0.510 inch. 500 vs. 570 grains. 2,250 vs. 2,500 fps. 5,800 vs. 8,000 ft.-lbs.

Don't get me wrong, I would feel well armed with a Lott. But I prefer more, since I am convinced that, as far as elephant and buff are concerned, there really is no such thing as too much gun.

.
Mike. You the Man! !!

Hello, I always end up by worrying for threads like this one. It ends up by seeming that 458 Lott, it is not a big cartridge for Africa.

Oscar.

P.d: I am glad to see you somewhere here Mr. Tiggertate.


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Traducción por PROMT™
http://www.promt.es

quote:

Hello, I always end up by worrying for threads like this one. It ends up by seeming that 458 Lott, it is not a big cartridge for Africa.

Only on AR big bore forum!

Go over to small bore forum and see the debate over what is the best deer rifle a 223 or 22-250! Yes, really. Neither is even legal in many states, let alone recommended.

quote:

Originally posted by fourbore:

quote:

Hello, I always end up by worrying for threads like this one. It ends up by seeming that 458 Lott, it is not a big cartridge for Africa.

Only on AR big bore forum!

Go over to small bore forum and see the debate over what is the best deer rifle a 223 or 22-250! Yes, really. Note: Neither is legal in many states.

The fact is that I like these cartridges, jejeje, of 375 H&H from now on.

Oscar.

Yes, the "all wet" comment may be a fairly local/geographic slang phrase. It is a humorous or nice way of saying you are wrong,miss informed or do not know what you are talking about. I heard numerous times from my father as a young man. Do not hear it often any more in todays society.

EZ

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by eezridr:
Please feel free to tell me I am all wet but does that Taylor TKO value only refer to the impact of "solid" projectiles? It seems I read that once upon a time. Has no bearing on the effect of softs.

The "all wet" comment was tongue in cheek.

Taylor's KO values were meant to compare the effects of solids on head shot elephant.

quote:

Originally posted by gumboot458:

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
The .458 Lott will do the job, no doubt about it. I have used it to kill Cape buffalo.

Still, I found that it's not as powerful or effective, at least in my experience, as I had been led to believe it was.

I found that it kills about as quickly as a .375, which is really not that quick, absent a hit to the central nervous system.

I now use a .500 A-Square for the simple reason that I want to put them down, meaning incapacitate them, with one shot, right there and then. With a good shoulder shot, the .500 will do that with authority.

Follow ups may be needed, but I have found that one solid body shot with my .500 turns their legs to jelly.

The difference is simple physics, I think. Bullet diameter, weight, velocity and energy. 0.458 vs. 0.510 inch. 500 vs. 570 grains. 2,250 vs. 2,500 fps. 5,800 vs. 8,000 ft.-lbs.

Don't get me wrong, I would feel well armed with a Lott. But I prefer more, since I am convinced that, as far as elephant and buff are concerned, there really is no such thing as too much gun.

.
Mike. You the Man! !!

Still, for a medium bore, I hear it's not bad ...

How much punch with a .458 Lott?
So they serve punch when you get a Lott! Who knew?

I would hazard a guess that the bullet which struck the buff didn't hit the right place to stop it, or it was just the wrong bullet. Maybe both. Since smaller calibers have successfully been used to stop buffalo, by all accounts, I would think that the .458 Lott would certainly have enough punch!

Anyway, thank God the guy lived to tell the tale!

quote:

I would hazard a guess that the bullet which struck the buff didn't hit the right place to stop it, or it was just the wrong bullet. Maybe both. Since smaller calibers have successfully been used to stop buffalo, by all accounts, I would think that the .458 Lott would certainly have enough punch!

The story was the 458Lott hit so hard the buffalo was shaken from one end to the other. By the account given it worked very well.

quote:

The story was the 458Lott hit so hard the buffalo was shaken from one end to the other. By the account given it worked very well.

If I was caught on a raging buffalo like that guy was, I'd want him stopped instead of shaken! But obviously that happened also so I suppose the Lott did do its job after all.

Half-jokes aside, I have heard of a shock wave hypothesis. (Someone else may know more about this than me. I don't know if I buy into it or not.) So if the phenomenon observed wasn't muscle contractions, then it could have been a shock wave that he experienced.

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:
Hello, I always end up by worrying for threads like this one. It ends up by seeming that 458 Lott, it is not a big cartridge for Africa.

Oscar.

P.d: I am glad to see you somewhere here Mr. Tiggertate.

1) a 300 grain 375 at 2500-2600 is perfect. But a 500 grain 45 calibre at 2500-2600 is useless, probably got something to do with Weatherby

2) A CRF that jams is a great rifle. A push feed that is jam proof is not acceptable.

3) A 500 Jeffery that won't chamber any ammo is a recommended elephant gun. But a perfect 460 Wby is unacceptable.

4) A 300 grain 375 at 2700-2800 is a complete failure package. This is why Saeed keeps going back to Africa to shoot at all the buffalo again. If he would just use the 375 H&H he would not need to keep going back to Africa, he would have killed them first time arround

5) Lastly, a double rifle is perfect even if it is misfires. In fact a double rifle that is old and London made is acceptable for charging game even if it is not loaded

Next time I am hanging on a buff's leg, I will report back if I feel it.

quote:

Originally posted by ovny:
Hello, I always end up by worrying for threads like this one. It ends up by seeming that 458 Lott, it is not a big cartridge for Africa.

Oscar.

P.d: I am glad to see you somewhere here Mr. Tiggertate.


---------------------------
Traducción por PROMT™
http://www.promt.es

Hola, Oscar. Siento haber sido tan tranquila, pero el trabajo ha estado muy ocupado. Espero que usted y su familia están bien y que vas a encontrar mucha práctica con el 458 Lott.

Mike every calibre has a mystical patent on a certain velocity.

9.3 is 2350, but 2600 is allowed, and one of the best if the cartridge name is brenneke.

375 is 2500

416 has to go back down to 2350 to kill anything.

458 was 2150, now its been allowed to 2300-2350.
You can go to 2450 but this is a new development and only if the last name is Rigby. Keep in mind this does not allow you to use a 460wby at this level, or any level really. The cartridge will cause failures at every velocity.

Now 500 is tricky too. 2150 is perfect but 2300 is better-as long as the last name is gibbs. Can also be stretched to 2400fps, suddenly getting close to 375 H&H flanged speed, but only if the last name is Jeffery.Any 50 cal cartridge with last name wells or A-square is better of sticking to 2300 just to be safe

You step outside these guidelines you could end up charged to death

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
The .458 Lott will do the job, no doubt about it. I have used it to kill Cape buffalo.

Still, I found that it's not as powerful or effective, at least in my experience, as I had been led to believe it was.

I found that it kills about as quickly as a .375, which is really not that quick, absent a hit to the central nervous system.

I now use a .500 A-Square for the simple reason that I want to put them down, meaning incapacitate them, with one shot, right there and then. With a good shoulder shot, the .500 will do that with authority.

Follow ups may be needed, but I have found that one solid body shot with my .500 turns their legs to jelly.

The difference is simple physics, I think. Bullet diameter, weight, velocity and energy. 0.458 vs. 0.510 inch.

Well - simple physics...... - if a 458 doesnt kill any better than a 375 (difference is .083") then a .510" doesn`t kill any better than a .458" (difference .052").... And that way it means that you are actually saying that a 500 is not better than a 375....

Its big BS. Of course a 458 is better than a 375 assuming everything else equal (shot placement). No question about it...
And take it easy - I also think a 500 is better than a 458 (or a 375)...


Ulrik

IMHO, your analysis is flawed, because you only consider bullet diameter.

Simple physics involves all of the factors I mentioned.

And of course I am considering only well placed shots - one third to one half the way up the body and into the top of the heart or shoulder.

In my experience, a 270 or 300 grain .375 at 2,500 - 2,600 fps is not that much different than a 500 grain .458 at 2,100 - 2,300 fps. Not in terms of relative quickness of incapacitation or killing of large animals, absent a central nervous system hit.

But again, in my experience, a 570 grain .510 at 2,500 fps is remarkably quicker to put them down.

Being only one hunter, my experience is limited, but I do rely on it in making decisions of this kind.

There are bullets that transfer trauma, there are bullets that do not! I suppose if ones experience is with a 458 caliber round nose solid vs a 375 caliber NonCon, the 375 is going to win every single time in this scenario with drop dead on the spot, or a tremendous transfer of trauma to target. However, if one takes a 458 caliber NonCon vs a 375 Caliber NonCon, you will have to watch results very closely over the taking of several animals, but in the long run, my vote will go to 458 as doing a second or so quicker. Take a 458 NonCon vs any 375 conventional premium bullet and the 458 will win hands down every single time end of story. Moving up, to 500 and 510 will be the same story over again.

Cartridge? Try the bullets--Bullet does the work, some are tremendous transfers of trauma, some are not. Blanket statement that one caliber, or one cartridge is so much better than another is not correct, it all depends on the bullet people!

I only use premium expanding bullets on Cape buffalo - and in particular I have become a convert of late to Barnes TSX bullets. No comparison of this kind can be valid unless bullet type is held constant.

quote:

Next time I am hanging on a buff's leg, I will report back if I feel it.

Now write that down and keep it somewhere so you won't forget!

While in camp at Makuti this past season,Peter-an experienced PH told me he once saw a buff with nearly the whole heart destroyed from a bullet,go a long way before expiring.

quote:

While in camp at Makuti this past season,Peter-an experienced PH told me he once saw a buff with nearly the whole heart destroyed from a bullet,go a long way before expiring.

Bear will do this to. My buddy shot a black bear in the heart with a 303 Savage. A direct heart shot. The bear ran 100 yards before it dropped dead. He was dead already, but just to stubborn to admit it.