The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores How Much Punch does a .458 Lott Have or Are You Better Off with a Double?Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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The truth shootway, it is a pleasure to read some praise to 458 Lott, since lately I read fierce criticism against him and it makes me feel like an idiot on having elected a cartridge as 458 Lott. Oscar. I am Spanish My forum:www.armaslargasdecaza.com | |||
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From what I can gather, an elephant charges at between 20 & 25mph. If it is within 5yds of you & heading directly towards you, then how fast you can shoot is moot because alive or dead it is going to flatten you through inertia alone. If you need 1½ seconds between shots & another 1½ seconds to make like Speedy Gonzalez out of the path of the falling pachyderm, then that first shot has to be at 30yds & the second at 15yds. | |||
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some smart people living in the UK. | |||
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Heym DR vs. Bolt NRA Lifer; DSC Lifer; SCI member; DRSS; AR member since November 9 2003 Don't Save the best for last, the smile for later or the "Thanks" for tomorow | |||
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Ovny,we have the best cartridge.I don't waste any time on cartridges anymore and never did in the first place-there is no end to it.I just learn how to shoot,save some money and then go hunting. | |||
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Oddbod, If what you said above is true then Ivan Carter would be dead now. 465H&H | |||
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It all boils down to what can you shoot better with pee running down your leg. I have a lot more experience with bolt guns than double trigger double rifles. I think that the odds are better that I will remenber to change triggers than to pull the bolt back all the way and not short stroke the dam thing. If I were to pull the first trigger twice , I would have a better chance to recover and fire a second round with a double than to clear a jam with a bolt gun. If I had to put all my eggs in one basket and count on one shot only, then it would be with a 505 or 550 than with a 458. When it comes down to it, its what will work best under pressure and give you the better margin of error. Doubles are not perfect. I think doubles are way to expensive, don't shoot as accurate as a good bolt gun , and the recoil (due to the twisting in the hand) is more unpleasent than a similar class bolt gun. If it may to come down to point blank range, I will choose the one two punch of a double over a bolt gun every time. Its in close where it realy counts and you can't beat a double there. I like my 505 and can break clay targets at 200 yards with it all day long, If I am working in close I am carrying my double. For what it's worth, I have not hunted dangerous game , but I am in training for 2012 or 2013, this is what I see working best for me, your plan may be different. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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Unfortunately I cannot lay claim to writing the laws of physics. The inertia of a 2 ton plus body travelling at 20mph quite simply cannot be done away with in fifteen feet. In Ivan Carter's narrative the elephant was only 15yds away when it started moving, so it wasn't exactly up to speed in 10yds. | |||
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You got to account for the reaction to the shot and the muscel contractions that will result from a properly brained ele. Most of the video I have seen shows the front legs stiffing ( a stoping motion)and the back legs dropping out from under ( a motion allowing other forces to come into play).With out the legs provideing support gravity acts upon the mass causeing it to fall faster than it is moveing forward.It's not like trying to figure out how far a car takes to stop at 25 mph, the effects of gravity is acting upon the car as it starts to move, and does not change as it stops. Its been years since high school but that how I remenber it. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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Yes, you are correct that you cannot rewrite the laws of physics but you can better understand them in relation to the discussion at hand. Forward inertia is reduced by a change in direction of the moving body as well as resistance to the forward motion among other things. When a charging elephant is hit in the head, if you instantly kill it, knock it out or knock it down you stop the forward thrust of the elephant. When an elephant is hit in the brain muscular reaction causes it to raise its head and trunk causing the weight of the head to move in the opposite direction of forward momentum. Thereby reducing forward momentum. Then the rear legs buckle quickly followed by the stomach, chest and front legs in that order. The head crashes to the earth at about the same time as the chest. Now the total underside of the elephant is on the ground providing a huge amount of resistance to forward movement as it scrapes along the ground. I have experienced two elephant charges, both stopped at six yards or less. In both cases the skid marks from the front feet were visible and less than three feet long. The elephant was actually lying behind the forward edge of the skid marks. You can't believe how quickly they go down when hit properly with a frontal brain shot. 465H&H | |||
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Oscar, You have a good rifle and a good cartridge. There is no reason to regret your choice of feel bad about the choice you made. A bad shot can be made with any firearm whether it be a double rifle or bolt action, "wonder" cartridge or something ordinary, experienced shooter or novice. You can take the best rifle and load it with bad cartridges or bad bullets and make it fail to stop or take an inferior caliber and load it with proper cartridges and good bullets and make it work. Please don't focus on a few people who make bad choices and blame the rifle or the caliber. Would I like to own a 450 Dakota bolt action or a 470NE double rifle? Sure. Do I feel bad that I purchased a 458 Lott at a fraction of the cost? No. I will take the savings ($$ for me) and buy better ammunition and more of it and go hunting sooner. An expensive rifle in a more expensive caliber only means I will practices LESS and hunt LESS often and possibly never go to Africa. I will always take my cheap 458 Lott and a trip to Africa over a more expenive bolt action or double rifle and dreams that are never realized. Best Regards, Sid Best Regards, Sid All those who seek to destroy the liberties of a democratic nation ought to know that war is the surest and shortest means to accomplish it. Alexis de Tocqueville The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money. Alexis de Tocqueville | |||
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All of this in interesting. I am still struggling with the issue of buying a double or not. Here is what I see: FOR THE DOUBLE: 1- The history of the double in Africa makes it interesting. 2- They can pack a very powerful punch. 3- Little doubt a double can get off 2 shots faster than a bolt. 4- Up close and personal, I would personally be more likely to hit the target and get off a second shot if necessary. 5- I want it. AGAINST THE DOUBLE: 1- Expensive 2- Only holds 2 rounds 3- Heavy 4- Generally more recoil 5- I am personally more likely to wound an animal at any distance. 6 - Will have to forgo some shots due to the iron sights. 7- Not sure how much I would actually use it. I took a double to TZ in 06 and never took it out of of the case to hunt. I am having a tough time making the decision. | |||
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My conclusion? Buy the double, Larry!  Seriously, I can't tell you what to do but maybe I gave you some food for thought. | |||
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My 458 Lott doesn't kick bad at all. It has the power to kill any animal in the world. My shells are loaded to the max and with a 500 gr bullet it gets into 6000 ft pounds of power. | |||
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One issue I have with all this comparison of doubles to bolt actions is that most of the talk about quick shooting and reloading is all done from the point of view of on a range or even at a big bore shoot. Very few get to use big bores of any sort on a lot of game. Most accept that practice makes perfect but personally I feel that no amount of practice on a range will prepare a hunter for using his rifle no matter what style it is, on game. It may help with some handling familiarity but this is not the same as handling the rifle under stress of physical exertion and adrenaline rush when facing any game let alone dangerous game. Most hunters are more likely to have used a bolt action on a variety of animals under varying field conditions, some more arduous than others, and be more likely to be competent in their use under pressure situations. No matter what type of rifle is being used it must be aimed for the killing shot, every shot. Even a semi-auto is of no value if it is not aimed properly. I would be safe to say that very few hunters today, if not any, would ever have shot a double on game enough to be as competent as most are with bolt actions. Plenty of us have used double shotguns but their ability to point and shoot without actually aiming is definitely not the same as using a double rifle that has to be aimed using the sights to get that bullet in the right spot, every shot. To me a bolt action provides much more versatility for most hunters. Much is made on the double for a quick second shot but in the reality of hunting today on DG the PH has fired straight after the first shot from the hunter in a charge situation. A good example of this is the video of Hunter Mike taking an elephant charge at close quarters (link posted somewhere on this forum). MikeJ shots first barrel, PH shoots fraction after, elephant collapsing (watch slo mo), MikeJ shoots second barrel, elephant on deck, PH empty case flying through air as he reloads his 416 bolt gun, running around to side of elephant urging MikeJ to follow, PH puts in insurance shot, MikeJ running to keep up with PH and standing with empty double rifle, PH still has at least 2 loaded rounds in his 416 bolt action, MikeJ not even begun to reload. I hope I have not done MikeJ a disservice if the video was not a continuous track but it sure looked like it. No harm done as MikeJ has shot perfectly and got himself a trophy, but his PH shot the ‘second’ barrel and the insurance shot. MikeJ would have achieved the same result with a bolt action. Just my observations and I think this would apply in many cases with today’s style of DG hunting. | |||
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I have not read the whole thread so forgive me if I am repeating, but in my opinion the Lott will give just about the same punch as an equivelent double. The double will only fire the second shot quicker. All of this means naught if the first shot does not hit its mark. Its all about accuracy, lots of practicle practice. Hell even a .308 can drop a charging elephant when hit in the right place! | |||
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Where do we even begin. What you say about not haveing enough experience with rifle in hand in the pursuit of game is as true for bolt guns as it is for doubles, Most hunters are not riflemen! Very few shoot all year long,even fewer develop the skill to use their firearm to its full range. If someone spends the money on a double rifle, more than likely he is not a causal shooter or collector. It is expensive and involves a large investment of time to get set up for reloading and working up a good load. Their are a few rich guys around who have purchased double who are not real shooters and just as there are many who have purchased expensive bolt guns and never learn to use them. Most double owner work at developing the skills need to use their doubles well. To say most guy's don't hunt with their doubles is just wrong. It's the other way around, double guys look for chances to use their doublerifles. I hunt with my doubles.The last 3 deer and my biggest deer I have killed with my 9.3 double rifle, 3 of the last 4 pigs I have killed I have killed with either my sxs or o/u double rifles one with a 470 two with a 9.3x74. I have killed two cow elk one with the o/u and one with my 375HH. My scoped 9.3x74 is a great treestand rifle where 100 shots are common. My eleven point was shot at 80 yards, the last doe was shot at 60 yards. There are times a bolt gun is a better tool, that is when I bring one, if I expect 100 yards or less then the double gets the call out. I don't think I am any different than most of the double riflemen I have had the pleasure of meeting at the hoot and shoot or at the one drss hunt I have been on. At the hoot and shoot , I tend to see the guys with the double rifles being more skilled than the big bolt guys and just as able to make killing shots. If there is a problem with the double not being leathal , its the shooter and not the rifle most of the time. Doubles are built for close work, where you very well may be in harms way and speed is more important than MOA size groups, thats not to say bigbore doubles can't be effective at 75 or a 10O yards. MIKE J is a very skilled rifleman and hunter with several dangerous game hunts under his belt, you are totaly wrong about your assement of that video. It's the shooter not the firearm that is leathal, boltguns , double rifles, even shotguns are just tools. Some cost more than others,and are works of art but they are just tools. You have to have the skill to use them and the experience to pick the right one for the job at hand. JD DRSS 9.3X74 tika 512 9.3X74 SXS Merkel 140 in 470 Nitro | |||
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gives me little envy to see like you they have the possibility of enjoying calibers as impressive as 500 Jeffery or 505 Gibbs (in Spain for his absurd rules they are prohibited) or 500 A-Square, etc... I will try to enjoy my 458 Lott jeje. A greeting, Oscar. I am Spanish My forum:www.armaslargasdecaza.com | |||
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JD I was never calling into question Mike Js skill or ability as a rifleman and hunter and I am aware he has several successful DG hunts under his belt. Just making the observation that from that video, if it hasn't been edited, that he would have pulled off the same successful shot with a bolt gun. His double was not necessary, other than for his obvious enjoyment in using one, for a successful outcome. Mike's first barrel may well have been the killing shot but his PH put in the "second barrel" a fraction of a second after Mike fired and then put in the insurance shot before Mike could or thought of reloading. My point was that in today's DG hunting when a charge takes place, the PH seems to have as much to do with a successful outcome as does the hunter. Perhaps you can share with us how you see the video showing an outcome that a bolt gun could not have produced in this case? I also did not question a doubles accuracy, I have used them on game in Europe and do not have anything against their use. Just don't accept that in the modern world of DG hunting under shoulder to shoulder supervision of a very competent PH that they are any better than a good bolt gun, in a suitable calibre of course. | |||
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The Lott.......I am starting to have trouble picking up those tiny ctgs with my fat fingers. Maybe thats why I now shoot a 600OverKill. I'll have it at the next Hoot&Shoot. Bring those cute doubles they are fun too! We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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My hats off to you folks! Even I can follow this BTW My plan is for a 458 Lott... | |||
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With a 458 Lott and 550 grain Woodleighs at 2,150 fps, I would willing take on any animal that roams the earth in ant kind of habitat with compelete confidence of the outcome. But I would also feel the same when using my 470 or 465 double. 465H&H | |||
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Larry, One other negative that you should consider is that if you don't have experience with doubles and have only shot bolt rifles you will have a steep learning curve before you are ready to go afield after dangerous game. Unless you are commited to the double and willing to put in the practice time, you are better off sticking to what you are familiar with. BYTW, thanks for the duck hunting DVD. 465H&H | |||
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That's a fact. Mentally adjusting to two triggers under stress requires a lot of practice. I think the average shooter that wants a double for that purpose but won't or can't put in the time should stick with a single trigger double, sacriligeous as that may sound. "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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triggertate, That is good advice but there is much more to practicing with a double than getting use to two triggers. Among other things is reloading practice and learning to shoot open sights by looking through the sights while focusing on your target. Also making the move to the rear trigger a fast as you can. All those take a lot of practice time. 465H&H 465H&H | |||
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That is a very valid point. In my youth (which was long ago), I often shot a double trigger side by side shotgun. it has been a very long time. 465: You are welcome. I hope you enjoyed it. | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores How Much Punch does a .458 Lott Have or Are You Better Off with a Double?
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