Was unpacking some of my 3 or 4 dozen spare barrels yesterday, which have been in storage for a couple of years as we complete our move from Oregon to Arizona (Yeh, I wish it was the other direction too...but after my 21 years of retirement there, my wife deserves a shot at her dream home too, so here we are, again.)

Anyway, found an unchambered, unthreaded medium sporter profile barrel blank in .416 bore which I don't even remember buying. I've got several really good condition actions lying around in the vault, including a nicely ground and hand-polished ex-military Mauser, a new MRC short stainless magnum bolt face one, a couple of Remingtons, and so on.

So, what the heck would you build with those components? I've kind of wanted a .416 Taylor since about 1960, but a friend has a reamer for a .416 WSM (his predates the B&M series or he might have gotten that). And I've even thought of making some kind of shortened .416/'06, sort of like a .416/.308 or .416x57, just for lobbing pumpkins through the AZ bush at the local deer and black bears. (Blacks in the eastern part of the state get up over 400 pounds fairly commonly, and will answer a varmint call...sometimes two or three bruins at a time from different directions.)

I've had worse problems to deal with over the years so this is no "biggy" but am still undecided about this barrel.

What WOULD you do?

I think I'd do a .416 Taylor. For whatever reason, it's a cartridge that I've always found interesting, even though I have absolutely no practical use for a rifle chambered in it.

First:

quote:

3 or 4 dozen spare barrels

Second, there are a lot of options using shorter unbelted cases -
.416 Howell (based on the .404J, 400gr@2400fps)
.416-06 JDJ (400gr@2050fps)
.416 Taylor (400gr@2300fps)
.416WSM (400g@2300fps)

and the one factory round in this group,
.416 Ruger (400ge@2400fps)

George
I'd get the .416 Ruger if you're ever going to sell the gun, .416-06 JDJ (or a a .308-length version) if you want something more uncommon.

quote:

a friend has a reamer for a .416 WSM (his predates the B&M series)

Alberta

Just FYI--9.3--50 B&M, including 416 B&M, use Cut and trimmed RUM brass, not WSM. B&M Brass is basically 2.25 inches.

Michael

416 Ruger or 416 Taylor. Load it up or down to your heart's desire.

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
First:

quote:

3 or 4 dozen spare barrels

George -

Here I thought I was just a typical gun nut!

Over the years I have really enjoyed building, buying, trading, and so on, LOTS of guns. Shot every one of them, too. As a person of modest means, that has meant that when I saw stuff on at a good sale price, which I could likely use in the future to put together something I might get a yearn for, I bought it.

That goes for barrel blanks, as well as other stuff. For instance, when a barrel maker/distributor went out of business about 10 years ago, I bought 5 different bore-sizes from them. Still have 3 sizes of them awaiting projects, but at $100 per barrel, I'm glad I have them. When their turns come, I won't be paying higher prices out of my fixed retirement income for them.

I even have an assemblage of 100+ chamber reamers which I got the same way...some for as little as $15 each from folks who bought them for one chamber/inherited them/retired from using them in their business, etc. Want to see how a really good old-timer's reamer cuts? I've got half a dozen by Red Elliot.... Want to make a real 6m/m Donaldson Ace? Got a reamer for that....

Now that it costs a small fortune to go to a movie and have a bag of popcorn while there, my stashes look like more fun and better deals to me. Plus, I can sell this stuff if I ever need to.

I used to love to go to the park and watch pro baseball before expansion and TV contracts ruined it (one year in the '50s I saw 88 professional baseball games in person), but now tickets would make even J. Paul Getty cry, so as a retiree I can afford to build rifles, but can't afford to go to baseball games...who'd have ever "thunk" it? That's the shocker to me.

In honor of a gentleman, a 416 Hoffman.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

a friend has a reamer for a .416 WSM (his predates the B&M series)

Alberta

Just FYI--9.3--50 B&M, including 416 B&M, use Cut and trimmed RUM brass, not WSM. B&M Brass is basically 2.25 inches.Michael

I wasn't saying they are the same Michael...but aren't they similar ballistics? I was just using them as an example because I had been led to believe by other posts here they were in the same short cartridge class.

To further clarify the intent of my post, I have amended that sentence in it to read as follows):

"but a friend has a reamer for a .416 WSM (his predates the B&M series or he might have gotten that)."

quote:

Originally posted by BaxterB:
In honor of a gentleman, a 416 Hoffman.

Interesting and appreciated hought, Baxter, but as I already have a rifle chambered for an identical case but using .411" diameter bullets, I think I'll have to use this barrel for something a little more different.

And, I really don't want any more heavy recoiling rounds. Have more of those than I need already.

416 ruger -- its near enough to my 416 accrel not to matter.. and factory stuff is easy to deal with

I have a Paul Marquart stainless synthetic rifle in 416 Howell for cheap if you wanted to skip the build and get right to shooting! :-)

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:

quote:

a friend has a reamer for a .416 WSM (his predates the B&M series)

Alberta

Just FYI--9.3--50 B&M, including 416 B&M, use Cut and trimmed RUM brass, not WSM. B&M Brass is basically 2.25 inches.Michael

I wasn't saying they are the same Michael...but aren't they similar ballistics? I was just using them as an example because I had been led to believe by other posts here they were in the same short cartridge class.

To further clarify the intent of my post, I have amended that sentence in it to read as follows):

"but a friend has a reamer for a .416 WSM (his predates the B&M series or he might have gotten that)."

Alberta

I am sorry, it's hard to read ones "tone" in a post, I did not mean for it to be considered I had taken any offense, not at all, just that while they might appear to be the same, they are not actually. That is all I meant. I took zero offense.

There have been several folks build 416 WSMs and they are fine. They can't quite get to the B&M velocities without running into some pressure issues. There is not a lot of difference. I have a friend that did a 416 WSM--And he knew better as I already had the 416 B&M. He has some issues with this that the other with his, but pretty much has it shooting. Seems to be anything from 50-100 fps less than the B&M, so not a lot really.

Enjoy!

Michael

I'd do the 416 B&M without hesitation.

I must say that I am loving my 416 B&M. I just loaded up a bunch of 335gr gas check over 24 gr TrailBoss for a play-around load. later , in Sept, its going to Zim for Ele and Buff. I am surprised at how much difference the short action makes.

SSR

No one has mentoned this possibility, but I think maybe I will look at trying a lower powered .416 wildcat...either a .308 or a .30-06 case opened up with a straight taper and no shoulder, headspacing on the muzzle end of the case...like a 45 auto does. I can always rechamber to something larger if it doesn't work out.

Why do that?

Because I REALLY, REALLY DON'T WANT yet another needlessly heavy-recoiling rifle. My .475 A&M provided plenty of that and I'm not going there again unless I am doing it in a heavy double rifle (11-1/2 pounds or more). Not now. Not tomorrow. Not EVER!!

Just built a 416 RUM - amazing! AIU

AC, the 338 RCM would make a nice short action 416 with about 6-7 gr less case capacity than a WSM. Should give a 350 gr bullet about 2150 fps.

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
Just built a 416 RUM - amazing! AIU

Good idea you have there...If you've read the OP's post's, you'd see he doesnt want un-needed RECOIL!!....

I am currently playing with a new 416 barrel I got on eBay for $70. I have two Taylors already, so I decided to try something I have wanted to do for a while, a 416-284. The barrel is a really light contour for a 416, which helped the price and my decision. I used a 6-284 reamer to cut the body and a N&T reamer to cut the neck and throat. As soon as I get a chance, I am going to headspace it on a spare 98 I have and try it out to see what kind of performance it will give. One thing I always wondered about was headspacing. numbers and drawings are one thing but the final cut is another. After cutting the chamber, it is clear tht there is plenty of shoulder to headspace against. I will simply anneal some 284 cases, load some cheap 7mm bullets and fireform a few cases. I will neck size for loading to try it out. If it doesn't work, a taylor or Ruger reamer can bat cleanup.

That's the beauty of buying cheap, you can try a lot of things you wouldn't normally do.

quote:

found an unchambered, unthreaded medium sporter profile barrel blank in .416 bore…

quote:

a nicely ground and hand-polished ex-military Mauser…

quote:

a new MRC short stainless magnum bolt face one…

quote:

but a friend has a reamer for a .416 WSM…

AC… Don’t know if you want a light-handy rifle or a heavier-handy rifle…that could be settled with either a synthetic or laminated rifle stock…at least helping the weight choice.

Anyway here are my two options:
If the barrel is SS –
Then I’d have it chambered for your friends .416 WSM and screw it into the MRC SA SS action. The .416 WSM will give less overall performance than the .416 B&M but you’d still be good for deer and elk for longer range work should that be needed, and for up close and personal work against bear should that required. Plus this should give you a fairly efficient caliber/case capacity combination.

I shot one of Michael’s .416 B&M rifles…really nice SS M70 with a walnut AI stock…just outside of Creswell, OR in June 2010. I really loved the rifle, not hard on the shoulder but would put 300gr and 350gr TSX bullets into the diameter of a pair of men’s sleeves (what can I say…that’s the target available and what my Buddy Dennis spread out for us to shoot at)…at approximately 325yds. We were shooting a previously ‘range lasered’ spot across canyon. It was just as accurate with some Sierra, Speer and Swift bullets of the same weight range though I only shot these bullets at a shorter range... I loved the rifle! It was short and extremely handy to use and definitely had no loss in performance due to its size...Until I shot this rifle at 325yds I preceived it to ba a 200yd-225yd max range rifle/cartridge combination but it easily proved me wrong. I’d have no qualms using it against anything that walks this earth presently with the proper bullet.

If the barrel is CM –
Then I’d have it chambered for the .416 Ruger and screw it into that nice M98 Mauser action. This one won’t be quite as handy as the MRC SA SS but it’ll only be perhaps 1” longer overall so it shouldn’t be a deal breaker. The .416 Ruger and M98 Mauser action are an almost a perfect match and you’ll have darn good performance without breaking the shoulder or the bank. The case capacity is definitely more than the .416 WSM…but you’re a handloader so you can determine the velocity/recoil that you’ll be shooting.

A wildcat straight-case cartridge off the ’06 case ??? That could be done. But if you’re looking for reduced capacity/reduced recoil…just remember, you’re a handloader… you determine the performance you’ll be using.

The only way is to build a tribute to the great Ken Howell.


Lots of info in the below thread. Scroll up to the beginning and enjoy.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/...mber=54261#Post54261

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
I am currently playing with a new 416 barrel I got on eBay for $70. I have two Taylors already, so I decided to try something I have wanted to do for a while, a 416-284. The barrel is a really light contour for a 416, which helped the price and my decision. I used a 6-284 reamer to cut the body and a N&T reamer to cut the neck and throat. As soon as I get a chance, I am going to headspace it on a spare 98 I have and try it out to see what kind of performance it will give. One thing I always wondered about was headspacing. numbers and drawings are one thing but the final cut is another. After cutting the chamber, it is clear that there is plenty of shoulder to headspace against. I will simply anneal some 284 cases, load some cheap 7mm bullets and fireform a few cases. I will neck size for loading to try it out. If it doesn't work, a taylor or Ruger reamer can bat cleanup.

That's the beauty of buying cheap, you can try a lot of things you wouldn't normally do.

Art - Thanks for the thoughtful information and idea. Sounds about like what I am looking for, and maybe it would pretty easily fit in this spare VZ 24 action I mentioned having at the beginning of this thread (the military mauser).

I already have a .284 reamer and a GI .50 ammo can full of new .284 cases which I was using as donors for my .30-284 Winchester.

Please keep us posted here at AR on how your's works out and in the meantime I will look some more at maybe copying what you are doing.

----------

Capoward- I also appreciate your input, and if I didn't already have a plethora of oversized (magnum) rifles, I'd go one or the other routes you analysed so well. But I just DON'T WANT another biggish magnum...any kind of big-bore magnum. Maybe a 6.5 WSM for the MRC action, but not a .416 bore in ANY magnum capacity brass. I've got a couple of new 6.5 barrel blanks here waiting to get on a rifle of some sort, so maybe that's the next project.

I've shot my friend's .416 WSM about 40 rounds, and it is not a pleasure. His rifle is fairly light, so that's part of it, and I was shooting it from the bench, which is another part of its apparent recoil, but why use a short action if one doesn't want a light rifle?

I do think (off the thread topic here) I'll rechamber my .30 belted Newton rifle to just plain old original .30 Newton, and use the Ruger .375 brass for that...have bought a bunch of it for that very purpose but haven't gotten to the cleaning up the chamber yet.

Again, thanks for the ideas....

AC, I would realy love to pick through your junk pile.

Cheers, John

Some good suggestions.
When I hear military Mauser and 416 I think 416 Aagard.
400 @2,250

I vote for .416 Ruger, a wonderful round that could be throttled back a bit and still be a GREAT black bear round. If you ever get bored with it and decide to sell, there would be a lot more interest by buyers than if in some unusual/hard to find caliber. No matter what, it sounds like a fun problem to have!

I'm with you I've always wanted a 416 Taylor and 20 some years later I finally got around to building myself one, and I love it. Now on the question at hand, the other options I was considering at the time were, 416 Ruger, 416 Express/350 rem necked to 416, and 416 x 2". I like the Taylor so much I might build one of the others just to play with.

There was another thread floating around which you may have read. It concerned a whisper type 416. I suggested a 243wssm necked up to 416. It would be very accurate at whisper velocities and and with medium weight 416 bullets make a dandy North American brush gun. If I'm not mistaken, it is around the 06 case volume, but has a shorter fatter body than the 284. The 284 could serve the same function, but you could fit VLD bullets in a short action.

Performance of any of these should be almost identical to the 400 Whelen, which seems to be gathering a little following lately.

quote:

Originally posted by whelenite:
AC, the 338 RCM would make a nice short action 416 with about 6-7 gr less case capacity than a WSM. Should give a 350 gr bullet about 2150 fps.

Sorry, I did not want to appear to be ignoring your post. I did not realize the RCM was that much smaller than the WSM and appreciate the info. If I decide to use ANY magnum case, which at the moment is very doubtful, that sounds like what I should explore.

quote:

Originally posted by Art S.:
There was another thread floating around which you may have read. It concerned a whisper type 416. I suggested a 243wssm necked up to 416. It would be very accurate at whisper velocities and and with medium weight 416 bullets make a dandy North American brush gun. If I'm not mistaken, it is around the 06 case volume, but has a shorter fatter body than the 284. The 284 could serve the same function, but you could fit VLD bullets in a short action.

Performance of any of these should be almost identical to the 400 Whelen, which seems to be gathering a little following lately.

Art - Have you known anyone who actually had such a .40s round on the .243 SSM? Wouldn't that necking up to .416 be a bit of a "witch" to deal with?

When I mentioned maybe necking the .308 to take that diameter of bullets, I actually had in mind starting with .358 Winchester brass which, like other stuff, I already have a small boatload of. The .358 cases likely would require less annealing steps than the .308 case to prevent undesirable brass loss, no?

I agree with Capo and think that a 416 Ruger is a nice, practical bottom line. You can always load it down 300 fps with full cases of excessively slow powder, or short charges of fast powder. But then you will also have it available for its full capacity should the need arise.

And a 416 Ruger will re-sell and be more versatile for others who come along to use the rifle. A 416/308 is just too specialized for me, though I've considered a 338 Federal for my wife.

It's just hard to pass up the common sense of that 416 Ruger design and capacity, unless you happen to like Rigby cases, which I do.

I have never seen one, but I think it could be done. It would be better to start with the 25 WSSM, actually. You would be going up a little less. I have always found going up a lot easier than down. I would take it in several steps with tapered expander buttons and anneal at a couple of points along the way. I don't like shortening cases, but you could start, I believe, with a cut off WSM case and neck down, but due to the size of the case, you would likely be moving more metal and have to neck ream/turn.

There's no doubt sizing up to .416 can be done, but to me it wouldn't be a pleasure. Been that sort of route with other things. Until I helped harrass Bob Graf into getting some .303 Savage brass made half a dozen or so years ago, I made it myself out of .220 Swift cases. Possible, but not enjoyable.

On the other hand, I don't find it much of a PITA to size things down, even a long way down. Often made my own neck reaming dies and other required tools from bar stock, which WAS fun. And once the proper tools are cpmpleted it is easy to redo the brass.

Nice thing about that way is you can make tools which produce EXACTLY the dimensions you want in your finished brass....no "close enough" fudging or compromises.

As mentioned above, I am going to attempt to make the cases by firing 284 loads down the tube. I made 5 "proof of concept" cases to use in setting the gun up, but if fire forming will work, it's cake. I made the five by going to 30, then 338, them 375, then 416. Used different dies all with tapered expanders. I went in easy steps since the 284's are a little easy to crush due to the shoulder angle.

Also seems to me I saw someone that listed 284 Basic brass a few years ago, with straight walls. (Maybe Graf?) If that existed, the 416 would be cake.

I threaded the barrel today, cut it to 24", installed it on a nice 1925 30-06 conversion action I got recently, rough contoured the barrel(it was a really odd layout whrn I got it) and bolted it into an old B&C stock I keep around as a test bed. It is glassed to a 98 action but the barrel channel is hogged out and glassed for a Douglas # 6, so about anything will go in. I don't have a 416 crown pilot, so i temporarily ran the throater into the muzzle just far enough to make the crown concentric. Doesn't really matter for now, since the bolt and safety are unaltered, no scope mount holes, and no sights. I just want to chekc headspacing and try to fireform 10 or 15 rounds to play with.

Like I said, the 284 has about 1-2 grains less than an 06 case, so I actually throated it about .25 inches long. The magazine has plenty of room to set the bullets out some. That, along with a slightly lower sectional density and slightly more bore area, should be enough to let me load 400 Whelen loads. I think a 300 at 2250-2300 or a 350 at 2100 would make a fine north american large bore. It would do for anything in a pinch, although if Africa is the goal, I would opt for a Taylor in one weight heavier barrel. Anyway, if the weather cooperates, i will try the fireforming tomorrow, and hopefully load some test loads Sunday and try to chrono them Monday. I also have a VZ-24 I installed a stainless 8" twist 220 Swift in yesterday, and the 222 Rimmed and 25-35, all of which I need to test so I can finish them. (There's still that 60's Sako HB 243 I picked up two months ago and haven't got to shoot. My problem is the working always gets in the way of the shooting.

Sounds good so far to me.

BTW my earlier comments on necking up were related to the .416 on a .243 SSM case, not the .284 case you are using. I think it will be fairly simple to do the .416 mouth into the .284 cases,just the way you are doing them.

I also wouldn't be surprised if they fire-form somewhat easily, though that may require an intial fire-forming, followed by a second one. I have done a lot of such fireforming by using a load of a relatively few grains of Bullseye, NO bullet at all....firing straight up, to make sure all the powder is against the primer when I touch it off. Alcan Nike works even better, but it hasn't been available where I've looked for maybe 50 years now. (It is about 10% FASTER burning rate than Bullseye). That's how I make .30 PPC from .220 Russian.

Well, that schedule didn't work. The weather has been terrible. I tried one fireforming load in the back yard, used 10 gr of bullseye, pointed it up (no filler). Got nothing.Still a perfect 284 case. Off to the local WMA range on Monday. Took ten full bore 284 loads (120 gr bullets, normal RL-15 load). Eight gave nothing, one left an odd almost hemispherical neck (small at the front) and one 416-284 useable case. Eight of the loads literally squibbed, the other two cracked like they built up a little pressure. I suspect the difference between bullet and bore was so much, the gas never built enough back pressure to go up the burn rate curve.

I got back home and decided to go the neck up route. Took twelve new cases, and went up in five steps. Lost three in making them, but the other seven looked OK. I loaded them up in groups of three graduated charges of 3031 and 350 gr speers. When I tried cycling them through the rifle, only two of the nine would chamber. I cut a pretty tight chamber, and a close exam showed that the seven all had the neck off center enough to prevent chambering. Without cust neck up dies, it doesn't look like it is feasible to go up this far and keep the necks concentric.

This morning, I took a new primed case, put in 10 grains of Bullseye, filled it to the top with cream of wheat, tamped it down and fired it off in the back yard. Success finally! Got a perfect case, so I loaded up 20 more and plan to take them tomorrow and form the, along with shooting the two loaded rounds I have. Probably should have gone the COW route to start with, but I thought I would do it the easy way, and got bitten again.

My vote would be the 416 Taylor on your 98 action; as if that counts. The round has always seemed to be such a nice balance of bullet weight and velocity. With the huge number of bullets available today and cheap and available brass to form it seems to make more sense than anything else. But owning more than one or two centerfire rifles is not real sensible either. As far as re- sale value, let me know when you are tired of your Taylor.

Like Boomie I think of the .416 Aagard for a nice medium .416 for use in North America. But I must admit that I like to use 350 gr projectiles in mine.

Art -

I suspect you just needed more powder for your fireforming. With my fireforming of the .220 russian brass to .30 PPC, I use about a third of a case full of Bullseye without ANY bullet.

I'd just keep going up a couple of grains at a time until I got enough pressure to do the job.
Then I'd write that amount down so the next time I wanted new cases I'd know how much to use. Of course there is nothing wrong with sizing up, except I hate to do all that annealing.

Of course I am NOT suggesting you start with a third of a .284 case full ofBullseye!

Those who have 416 Taylors will continue to enjoy them as a 458WM necked down to a .416Taylor is certainly a decent design.

But this is 2012. and the 416 Ruger is certainly a more elegant and efficient design. No belt, but a magnum .532" size. Same boltface, Hornady makes inexpensive brass, and the cartridge has 10 grains of capacity over the Taylor.

Choosing a Ruger instead of a Rigby would be similar to choosing a 308 over a 300WM. It all depends on what one wants. The Ruger is an elegant round that may put .416" on the map for NorthAmerica.

On the Ruger case, it is truly a blend of common sense, practicality, and ballistics. I wish they would have made "338Ruger"s (not the Compact, a full 375Ruger necked to .338) thirty years ago. The 338WM is a great cartridge but it could have used an extra 10 grains. I always considered the 340 Weatherby about ideal capacity for the bore, but found the prices of 338WM's more to my liking.

My vote also goes to the 416 Ruger