Just wondering what the experts are getting?how about with lighter bullets? My Gibbs .505 gets 3” at 300 yds?

I'm not exactly sure what you mean by the question but I found a graph for a full-house (MV 2150fps) 458 Win mag set up to have the 500-grain bullet two inches, or roughly two MoA, high at 100 yards, zeroing just past 150 yards and four inches (c. two MoA) low at 200 yards. It's all down hill after that, of course, and you'll never see 2MoA again.

Now, the 458 Lott should shoot a little flatter than that but I bet there's not much in it.

I have no idea how much flatter light bullets shoot but guess they won't be much better than, say, a 375 H&H mag with 300-grain bullets.

I suggest you take the question to the 458 Winchester Magnum thread, where RIP has all the numbers and will be glad to answer in the name of 'The Mission'.

1 MOA accuracy is about a 1" (actually 1.047") group at 100 yards (or 2.094" at 200 yards, 3.141" at 300 yards,...). A recent 1 MOA 3 shot group with my .458 Lott -

Neat shooting 4sixteen and, considering your understandable take on the 1-2-MoA question, I guess it could go on for ever as long as the wind didn't blow

i think you are asking about MPBR (max point blank range) rather than accuracy?

a 2moa (usually inches) UP (as measured at 100 or 150yards ) and 2 moa down at range, gives a rifle "pointability" .. in that you can put the sights where you want the bullet to hit, from 20 to 220yards ...

MPBR is a function of BC and vel - has next to nothing to do with caliber


anyway, here' your answer
http://www.shooterscalculator....oint-blank-range.php

as for me, hunting mostly in Texas, an inch high at 100 means i'll hit within my skill from 25 to 200

quote:

Originally posted by LR3:
Just wondering what the experts are getting?how about with lighter bullets? My Gibbs .505 gets 3” at 300 yds?

Depends on the condition of the bore or how many rounds it has through it.It has the potential to shoot 2 inch groups out to 200yds but after it has 100rds through it you will be lucky to get those same groups at 100yds.After about 100rds you will need to scrub the bore every 4 or 5 rds with JB in order to get decent groups at 100yds. If you don't you will not get on paper.If you shoot moly coated you can go many more rds at 100yds without cleaning but groups will be 4-6 inches.Accuracy will be much better without Moly but you need to clean like crazy.So,the accuracy life of a Lott beyond 50 yds is very limited.This is with shooting max loads and jacketed bullets.I am not familiar with its accuracy at long range with cast and reduced loads.That said if you go to the range with a new,unfired, quality barrel like a Pac-nor and you shoot out to 300yds,I would not be surprised if you didn't get the same accuracy you got with your 505.

not a 505
--How about 45-70's at Two Miles

http://www.researchpress.co.uk...ange/sandy-hook-1879

The Report of the Secretary of War, 1880, Volume III, under the chapter titled, "Extreme Ranges of Military Small Arms," had this to say: "The firing was done by Mr. R.T Hare of Springfield Armory who has the enviable distinction, so far as is known, of being the only person in the world who has hit the 'Bull's-Eye' six feet in diameter at 2,500 yards with three different rifles, and who has ever fired at and hit so small a target as that described in this report at 3,200 yards. In comparison with this, all other so-called 'long range firing' pales into insignificance. The gun was held under the arm, a muzzle rest only being used."

Next thing we will be speculating on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

What possible difference could it make that a .505 Gibbs or a .458 Lott can shoot one minute groups at 300 yards? For one thing, you won't be shooting off a bench when you fire a shot at dangerous game. For another, the range is more likely to be 300 inches rather than 300 yards, and an elephant's brain or a Cape buffalo's heart is considerably larger than three inches, let alone one inch.

Concentrate on learning to put all your shots in a four inch circle at 50 yards, shooting standing, unsupported. Worry about one minute of angle at 300 yards with your across the course match rifle, should you decide to take up high power rifle competition, which I strongly recommend.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
Next thing we will be speculating on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

What possible difference could it make that a .505 Gibbs or a .458 Lott can shoot one minute groups at 300 yards? For one thing, you won't be shooting off a bench when you fire a shot at dangerous game. For another, the range is more likely to be 300 inches rather than 300 yards, and an elephant's brain or a Cape buffalo's heart is considerably larger than three inches, let alone one inch.

Concentrate on learning to put all your shots in a four inch circle at 50 yards, shooting standing, unsupported. Worry about one minute of angle at 300 yards with your across the course match rifle, should you decide to take up high power rifle competition, which I strongly recommend.

A lot of people, myslef included, have spent many years doing shooting to get as much accuracy as possible from the bigger bores. In fact I would say the vast majority of big bores, say 375 H&H and up are not purchased with going to Africa, Alaska or Northern Australia in mind.

Actually this forum, that is big Bores, was originally suggested to Saeed by a bloke called Mitch Carter for those shooters who like to play with the bigger stuff but not with Africa in mind. The level of accuracy Mitch was able to achieve with a 577 T Rex was simply amazing.

I use my .458 Lott as a general purpose hunting rifle for anything I might encounter including at range. Getting 1 MOA accuracy as shown with the 300gr TSX at 2600 fps muzzle speed. Ballistics -

Thanks for the comments and especially your insights 4sixteen. I ve shot competitively to 2500 yards with 338 and 375 based on Gibbs 505 case, otherwise known as Cheytac, but no experience with Lott for longer ranges. I appreciate the comments about 300 gr TSX. I ve used 500 gr but only to 100 yds. My question is related to more the range for using it for deer season where the case has to be straight walled, otherwise I d be using the more accurate long range rifles at say to 300 yds. In Africa I prefer to get up close with a double on DG but for this deer season I m looking more at longer ranges from a stand using my Africa rifles or a 45-70 Gov.

PS. Which scope are you using 4 sixteen? Looks like 350 yd is about a reasonable maximum with 215 yd zero with the 300 gr and assuming 1 MOA accuracy which I m getting approximately with 500 G TSX and 6x scope.

Scope is a Leupold FX-I RF 4x28mm retrofitted with a Leupold Dot reticle (dot subtends 2.5 MOA) and parallax adjusted for 100 yards. Same as the old Leupold M8 Compact 4x.

https://www.leupold.com/scopes.../fx-i-rimfire-4x28mm

Maximum point blank does not really mean much, unless the target size is known.

And if we are talking about hunting, it becomes even more irrelevant.

Regardless of rifle or caliber, one should be able to make allowance for his rifle, and the distances he shoots at.

My rifle is sighted in at 1.5 inches at 100 yards.

It is roughly dead on at around 180-190 yards.

I have used it to shoot animals up to 500 yards, by making allowance and aiming higher.

Yes, that was a pretty strange question.
But whatever the .458 Lott can do, the .458 WIN LongCOL can do better.
Did I mention that I really like the .458 Winchester Magnum?
For bolt actions with 3.4", 3.6", and 3.8" magazine boxes, there is no finer cartridge.
I like them all.

Rip ...

Also load Sierra .458 300gr HP at 2600 fps muzzle speed. About the same POI out to 200 yards as the 300gr TSX. Take your pick.

Both rounds shown here (along with a 500gr .458 Shorty Lott round). Ballistics compared -

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by LR3:
Just wondering what the experts are getting?how about with lighter bullets? My Gibbs .505 gets 3” at 300 yds?

Depends on the condition of the bore or how many rounds it has through it.It has the potential to shoot 2 inch groups out to 200yds but after it has 100rds through it you will be lucky to get those same groups at 100yds.After about 100rds you will need to scrub the bore every 4 or 5 rds with JB in order to get decent groups at 100yds. If you don't you will not get on paper.If you shoot moly coated you can go many more rds at 100yds without cleaning but groups will be 4-6 inches.Accuracy will be much better without Moly but you need to clean like crazy.So,the accuracy life of a Lott beyond 50 yds is very limited.This is with shooting max loads and jacketed bullets.I am not familiar with its accuracy at long range with cast and reduced loads.That said if you go to the range with a new,unfired, quality barrel like a Pac-nor and you shoot out to 300yds,I would not be surprised if you didn't get the same accuracy you got with your 505.

So what is the question/answer?

What load will stay (MOA) is 2" at 100, 4" at 200, 6" at 300

or

What load will keep them all in a 2" circle and at what range.

4/16's chart shows 3" hi at 100 to 3" low at 250 (6" circle)
that is +3 moa to -1.2 moa

A five shot group at 100yds shot with the Lott.I was using 500grs TSX @2250fps and shooting open sights from a rest with a Ruger factory RSM.

[URL= ]100yds[/URL]

I'm guessing that barrel has less than 100 rounds through it.

quote:

Originally posted by LR3:
PS. Which scope are you using 4 sixteen? Looks like 350 yd is about a reasonable maximum with 215 yd zero with the 300 gr and assuming 1 MOA accuracy which I m getting approximately with 500 G TSX and 6x scope.

There's something strange about all this, esp. the use of a 6x scope on a 458 Lott. I suggest you PM Steel and ask what he thinks.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm guessing that barrel has less than 100 rounds through it.

The truth(a word you don't know the meaning of) is those were the first five shots out of that new rifle, and it never grouped anywhere near that afterwards-especially with TSX's whose accuracy in that rifle and some of my others, is short lived.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm guessing that barrel has less than 100 rounds through it.

The truth(a word you don't know the meaning of) is those were the first five shots out of that new rifle, and it never grouped anywhere near that afterwards-especially with TSX's whose accuracy in that rifle and some of my others, is short lived.

So what you're saying George is the reason most of your targets look more like shotgun patterns than rifle targets, is that they are the result of more than 100 rounds through a barrel? And those shotgun pattern targets you post are the result of finally getting the rifle back on the paper after scrubbing with JB every 4 or 5 rounds once the initial 100 rounds ruins the barrel?


You can't make this shit up. I dare you to even try!

With most any rifle I sight in at 3" high at 100 yards. With a 30-06 or 270 giving the 270 a very slight edge "perhaps" they shoot 4" high at 200 yards and on at 250 and 275 yards and 5 to 6 inches low at 300 sometimes less and bullet weight is a factor..

My 458 Lott and 458 Win. sighted in 3" high at 100 yards will be dead on at 150 yards and 13 inches low at 200 and best I recall is I shot them at 300 only a few times and allowed I could hit a buffalo by holding about two feet high but wouldn't swear to it as I would not shoot at buff at 300, 200 being my absolute max, but longest shot on buff I took was under a 100 yards best I recall. My all time best shot was with a 416 Rem was the teacup bull at 225 yards and he was walking and tipped over like a teacup dead..PH Van Heerden named him such..

Max would be 200 yards for a 2" group, but depending on rifle and shooter.

My problem can be and is most 458 shooters problem is recoil that opens the group size beyond the capability of the gun itself, to what degree is determined by each shooter. To test will tell the truth, to guess is a mistake.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm guessing that barrel has less than 100 rounds through it.

The truth(a word you don't know the meaning of) is those were the first five shots out of that new rifle, and it never grouped anywhere near that afterwards-especially with TSX's whose accuracy in that rifle and some of my others, is short lived.

So what you're saying George is the reason most of your targets look more like shotgun patterns than rifle targets, is that they are the result of more than 100 rounds through a barrel? And those shotgun pattern targets you post are the result of finally getting the rifle back on the paper after scrubbing with JB every 4 or 5 rounds once the initial 100 rounds ruins the barrel?


You can't make this shit up. I dare you to even try!

If you shoot a Lott with max loads at 100yds,offhand,with open sights, the target will not look like one shot at 25yds.That said if you are convinced that I cannot shoot perhaps you can come to the Libby big bore shoot and show me how it's done.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
I'm guessing that barrel has less than 100 rounds through it.

The truth(a word you don't know the meaning of) is those were the first five shots out of that new rifle, and it never grouped anywhere near that afterwards-especially with TSX's whose accuracy in that rifle and some of my others, is short lived.

So what you're saying George is the reason most of your targets look more like shotgun patterns than rifle targets, is that they are the result of more than 100 rounds through a barrel? And those shotgun pattern targets you post are the result of finally getting the rifle back on the paper after scrubbing with JB every 4 or 5 rounds once the initial 100 rounds ruins the barrel?


You can't make this shit up. I dare you to even try!

If you shoot a Lott with max loads at 100yds,offhand,with open sights, the target will not look like one shot at 25yds.That said if you are convinced that I cannot shoot perhaps you can come to the Libby big bore shoot and show me how it's done.

Hey, I'm just trying to put some logic into your nonsensical posts.

Here are your exact words from your earlier post on this thread:

"Depends on the condition of the bore or how many rounds it has through it.It has the potential to shoot 2 inch groups out to 200yds but after it has 100rds through it you will be lucky to get those same groups at 100yds.After about 100rds you will need to scrub the bore every 4 or 5 rds with JB in order to get decent groups at 100yds. If you don't you will not get on paper."


You claim that decent accuracy in a Lott is only available for the first 100 rounds with a new barrel.

Then you claim that the rifle will not even be on the paper after the first 100 rounds if you don't scrub the bore with JB every 4 to 5 shots.

I'm just trying to figure out why your targets look like shotgun patterns. If what you claim is true, that could be the answer. Of course, it could be your shooting helmet screws are loose again.

I'm going with the loose screw theory!

"You claim that decent accuracy in a Lott is only available for the first 100 rounds with a new barrel".

Yes, long range accuracy is short lived.

It could be because of the high pressures of the max loads and the wear on the bore they cause.

A properly built rifle, with quality components, using quality ammo, will shoot accurately, regardless of the caliber and cartridge used.

We have built so many large bore rifles, and every single one would shoot 1/2 inch or better.

I have never fired my .458 Lott at paper beyond 50 yards, although I did use it to kill a Cape buffalo at a laser ranged 96 yards, my farthest shot on buff to date.

I’m sure it would be plenty accurate at any range, though.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
"You claim that decent accuracy in a Lott is only available for the first 100 rounds with a new barrel".

Yes, long range accuracy is short lived.

It could be because of the high pressures of the max loads and the wear on the bore they cause.

Once again:

It would be a great time to review the 45-70 bullets for big na game thread above.

Mine is plenty accurate and I don’t expect to shoot enough to wear it out. I don’t buy the 100 round theory.....Its a rifle like any other...

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
A five shot group at 100yds shot with the Lott.I was using 500grs TSX @2250fps and shooting open sights from a rest with a Ruger factory RSM.

[URL= ]100yds[/URL]

George,
that is the most impressive group your have ever posted.. and I've shot with you .. i KNOW you can shoot

Thanks for all the advice. Loaded up 300 gr TSX at 2550 fps and tried them out today. Interesting they shot about 5” higher than the 500TSX that it was sighted for. Set up for 4” high at 100 yds and 230 yd zero. Groups about 1-1.5 at 100 yds, maybe a little better than 500. The drops are very similar but more punch left in the 500. However it’s for deer and marginally more accurate with less recoil so I ll stick with 300 gr. With 230 yd zero, the drop is about 10” at 300, 20” at 350 and 36 “ at 400. Looks like I m set for deer season!

Downside of using a 458 300gr TSX at extended range. Considerable wind drift (and low retained energy). Low 0.234 bc.

Agree but for now it will do. Thanks for the advice.

I would bet if I had a 458 Win. or Lott, that shot an inch or two inches at 100 yards I could expect to knock over a buffalo at up to 300 yards on a high dollar bet, otherwise I walk up to about 50 yards or less where 99% of buffalo are shot as a rule..

The barrel on a 458 Win or Lott should last at least 2500 rounds and probably 4000. Velocity is what damages a bore, not caliber, weitht of bullet, just hot powder burning the throat out in time because it shoot too damn fast..Ive never seen a 458 with a shot out bore, and if anyone has I suspect their is more to it than meets the eye in some kind of abuse..

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
Next thing we will be speculating on how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

What possible difference could it make that a .505 Gibbs or a .458 Lott can shoot one minute groups at 300 yards? For one thing, you won't be shooting off a bench when you fire a shot at dangerous game. For another, the range is more likely to be 300 inches rather than 300 yards, and an elephant's brain or a Cape buffalo's heart is considerably larger than three inches, let alone one inch.

Concentrate on learning to put all your shots in a four inch circle at 50 yards, shooting standing, unsupported. Worry about one minute of angle at 300 yards with your across the course match rifle, should you decide to take up high power rifle competition, which I strongly recommend.

Best advice on this thread IMO.

I honestly don't get the desire to shoot small groups with big bore rifles. Even if you can get them to shoot, they are never going to be long range rifles for the simple reason the wind plays havoc. Even a .375 H&H suffers in that regard.

Higher bc helps to buck the wind. Loading a VLD bullet in my 375. 300gr CEB MTH L08, 0.661 bc (G1).

L08 vs 260gr NP compared. 10 mph cross wind. VLD has way less drift beyond 350 yards.