Gunmaker.

The first 76 that I had in the shop to barrel with the 1.062 x 18 threads was April of 2006, sn 300X, in short mag.

I just did one a few weeks ago in 30-06, and noted that there was a lot of stamps on the bottom of the reciver, sn 312X, was marked RH 30-06 and other inspection stamps that I have not seen before.

Both of these actions came through Brownells, and then I got them from the stockmaker, so it is hard to tell when they left the factory.

Also the short mag had the lugs lapped and bolt face trued when I got it, along with the 30-06.

Both had 8x 40 scope mount screw holes also.

Many changes all around for the Co and the product, just not sure it any of it will come to good at all, Sad situation.

Jim Wisner
Custon Metalsmith

gunmaker,

No liability issues if you shorten and reshape the pin maintaining .045-.055 protrusion

donkey

How do you get that quote part in there?

Donkey,

I was down there at cst from Oct 2000 to Dec 2001, and worked in the store room for several months with an old cowboy named Bruce. At that time John Stewart was the head instructor, Frank Kledas was there teaching machine shop, and I forget the name of the guy teaching basics and stocks I remember he was a really skinny guy with a full beard, had come from California and moved back there in 2001. Might we have met during that time? How many of these guys are still there and how are they doing?

Rhys
Wyoming

Rhys,

Quite possibly I owned Guido's Nickel at the top of the hill, and Crooked T Gunsmithing on the other side of Colfax.

John was one of my students when I taught stockmaking there, must have been 89 or 90. He's still there. Frank's there Bruce has moved on to bigger and better things. I didn't know the other guy personally but I had met him.

Keep in touch.

Donkey

Nullus Secundum

quote:

Originally posted by donkey:
gunmaker,

No liability issues if you shorten and reshape the pin maintaining .045-.055 protrusion

donkey

How do you get that quote part in there?

I just clicked that little yellow folder with the quotes in the lower right hand corner of your post. A reply window pops up with the quote already in the window. You can delete what you want from the other person's post and reply to just what you have left quoted. This deleting the extra original post will get to the point you want to reply to and save a little server space.

About the protrusion, I want to sell safeties. If I sell something that requires the shortening of the pin and then the smith doesn't shorten the pin and the customer has problems, even a half-wit lawyer could have a field day with it. If you look at the bottom of a 98 shroud there is very little material left holding the shroud together right where you want to shorten it. When I worked at Dakota this spot is where they broke if the machinists were using a dull cutter or trying to really hog the material when profiling the back side. If you really want to shorten it yourself (I WOULD NOT RECOMMEND IT) you could do this yourself. A safer solution would be to not inlet the bolt handle so far when doing a custom handle. You have to have some play, and make sure the cocking cam doesn't bury itself.

Jim Wisner
Did you have any interest in buying Dakota?

wasn't the judge's ruling to be today? When? ANyone have new info?
thanks

Big Charlie got the company back.
Butch

I saw that on BCentral forums posted earlier today. It'll be interesting to see if the name changes.

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
That is what the big corporate take over is like. Buy the company, pay off the sellers in company stock, then go bankrupt so the stock is of no value, and sell the company. Big money the legal way. It just sucks!

It looks like Pegleg pegged it

What happens to those stockholders now? If it still says Dakota Arms Inc. on the type 07 FFL would Dakota Arms Inc, stock be worth anything? Bet the name gets changed a little to something like Dakota Firearms. Or would it be possible to reorganize it into Dakota Arms LLC and shaft the stockholders ?????????????

Does it matter what the name is? Does it matter who owns it? Dakota Arms was founded by two of the gun saviest people around, you can say what you ya'll want but I am happy to see them still in business

quote:

Originally posted by donkey:
Does it matter what the name is? Does it matter who owns it? Dakota Arms was founded by two of the gun saviest people around, you can say what you ya'll want but I am happy to see them still in business

I'm glad there back to, I just hope they get some better people in for customer service & sales. That was there biggest down fall, and there expensive african safaris when ever they wanted.....

It would make a big difference to the ATF. I assume IF it has to be reorganized into a new Corp or LLC and Dakota Arms Inc. is no longer in business because of this shell game Charlie pulled, then records will have to be sent into the ATF now and his FFL is no longer valid. He would have to re apply for a new type 07 under a new LLC or corp. I'm not sure if he can LEGALLY do any firearms business untill a new license is issued. This all depends on what really happened this week.

If Charlie is still wearing all the hats and staying out of the slammer, he had better get some consultants and assistants.

Surely someone will provide a link to a news story eventually ...

quote:

Originally posted by TSJ:
Wasnt there a fellow, "swamp" maybe? that was the Dakota champion. Going to sue anyone who made a bad word about them ect. Maybe he'll buy them!

SWAMP can't afford to run his web-site with out advertizers, and donations!

From the outdoor net


Dakota Arms, Inc., the Sturgis, South Dakota maker of fine custom firearms, has come out of bankruptcy through what is, essentially, the sale of itself to itself. Dakota had been operating under bankruptcy protections since a clash with a creditor forced the company into bankruptcy protection last July.

Under Section 363 of the U.S. Bankruptcy Code, a company in Chapter 11 protection can sell certain assets in order to continue to operate. Broadening of the case law concerning Section 363 has broadened the terms of an asset sale to the point the company can literally sell all its assets.

In this instance, bids were invited, and Dakota Equity, LLC, a wholly owned subsidiary of Technology Funding (the previous owner) submitted what is called the "stalking horse" bid - the bid others must best.

When bidding closed, there were no other bidders, allowing bankruptcy Judge Robert J. Kressel to approve the sale. The only objection to the action, incidentally, was from the creditor whose aggressive actions toward Dakota had precipitated the original Bankruptcy petition. All the other parties, from secured creditors to the Official Committee of Unsecured Creditors, expressed for Judge Kressel's Sale Approval Order.

"Today, the court acknowledged that the sale of assets is in the best interests of the estate and all the stakeholders, including the Dakota employees. The sale provides the best opportunity for Dakota Arms to put the bankruptcy behind us and move forward," said Dakota president Charlie Kokesh. "We can once again focus all of our attention on manufacturing the world's most accurate and reliable rifles for hunters and sportsmen who appreciate the very best."

Dakota Arms will continue to operate under the same name, Dakota Arms, Inc. Kokesh acknowledged the company's debt and gratitude to its employees, customers and trade vendors. "Without the overwhelming support from all three constituencies, the bankruptcy might have proven fatal to Dakota. Instead, as a result of their efforts, we are coming out of bankruptcy stronger than ever and can continue to carry the great legacy left by our founders, Don and Norma Allen."

"The Dakota sales team is taking orders, and our highly skilled craftsmen and women who build America's finest custom rifles are hard at work. There has never been a better time to call and place an order," sales manager Richard Spruill said. "Dakota Arms is ready to get back to business."

And finally, word on some action initiatives being sent around the outdoors. Those initiatives take a variety of forms, from the frantic "Contact your representative" messages to the more casual type informational pieces designed to keep particular constituencies current with happenings that influence their outdoor activities.

I am a retired bone picker and from experience it is almost impossible to dislodge incumbent management because bankrupcy law gives them the inside track.

My 1st deal was to buy a well known speciality maker. The bunch that had ruined the company forced a equity group to partner with them to get control of the company then screwed them big time..1st rule get the best local attorney available but it is much more cost effective to buy the judge.

quote:

"The Dakota sales team is taking orders, and our highly skilled craftsmen and women who build America's finest custom rifles are hard at work. There has never been a better time to call and place an order," sales manager Richard Spruill said. "Dakota Arms is ready to get back to business."

Right.

I did personally meet with Richard Spruill in his office in Sturgis. This "sales manager" would not sell me a Dakota 76 African with synthetic stock only. Yet they are taking orders now?

It's no doubt still "The Dakota Way or the Highway" and I did not let the door hit me in the ass.

That little fluff piece said very little. ForrestB, what's happening?

what it means.. the local bank & the other creditors got screwed..we still will get our free magazine every other month..the same management team is in place.. I'd bet on a complete liquidation within a year or so..

Company death by drowning in debt is such an ugly thing.

Does this mean those select few "big dogs" will be coming back after being told to go on an "unplanned vacation" last week?

Would someone bring this back into relevancy to this forum?

George

Unsecured creditors and shareholders get screwed on a Chapter 11. Secured creditors are secured, and that debt just doesn't go away. That is why they were forced into BK. If Dakota comes out of chp 11 the secured creditors may still have to accept a settlement but there is also a good chance that the secured folks will come out ok on this.

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
Would someone bring this back into relevancy to this forum?

George

Please explain what you mean. Are you happy that Dakota has survived this? Were you hoping they would not survive? I get the impression that you think only fools would spend Dakota prices for a rifle. I could be wrong, that's why I'm asking. I'm sure glad that many, not quite sure if all yet, of the people I knew working there still have a job. What's your take on this? Do you think it's a waste of money to pay those over inflated prices on Winchesters now? What if they reach Dakota prices and you're looking for another rifle? what would you buy?

gunmaker,

Watch your tone. The chip on your shoulder must be inhibiting the flow of blood to that part of your brain governing judgment.

This is the 'Big Bores' forum, not a general rifle forum, Dakota forum, bankruptcy forum, or investment forum.

As a 'Big Bores' forum, threads should have a clear relevance to that topic. This thread has little relevancy anymore, and WILL be moved unless brought back on topic.

George

quote:

Secured creditors are secured, and that debt just doesn't go away. That is why they were forced into BK. If Dakota comes out of chp 11 the secured creditors may still have to accept a settlement but there is also a good chance that the secured folks will come out ok on this.

Not sure this is true. Secured creditors often get pennies on the dollar for their "secured" debt!
Peter.

not wanting to start a fire fight but I doubt that the unsecured creditors are coming out whole.. Generally the 1st thing we do after buying something out of Bankrupcy is to renegotiate the leases, my target is 50% of the face most of the time I beat that. Banks are simply not set up to reposess machinery & sell it. The blurb said the local bank objected to the proceedings which probably means they had not profected their interest..

at the risk of angering George, how does this help Dakota produce firearms? It's still poorly managed and if it couldn't pay its debts on the street or in bankrupcy court, how is it going to pay them now? Those creditors have to be even less willing to compromise now. My bet is that they'll have to decrease hours spent per gun and charge the same....

George
I've no chips and I wasn't trying to make you mad. I just had some honest questions I was hoping you would answer. Dakota Arms has provided the big bore fans of the world thousands of BIG rifles that have gone across the pond and provided the owner with a reliable weapon. That's why it was probably posted on the Big Bore forum first. When I worked there the 416 Rigby and 375 H&H were the two most popular rifles. They provided left handed shooters a controlled feed alternative when there wasn't very much to choose from. There's a big following in the bog bore world.

As for my questions to you, I could have asked them in a less abrasive fashion. That's something I'm not very good at. The reason I asked you was based on the impression I got from reading some of your posts. As I said in my other post I could be wrong and am sorry if I was.

Big bore and bankruptcy relevance: .423 Dakota-Lapua

Dakota already had the 404 Dakota, a shortened 404 Jeffery with 30 degree shoulder. So how smart was it to offer a shortened .423/.338 Lapua Magnum that delivered only 50 fps more velocity with the same 400-grainer?

404 Dakota: 400 grains at 2400 fps
.423 Dakota: 400 grains at 2450 fps

How did this help the bottom line?
I think this was Charlie Kokesh's baby, short and fat like him.

quote:

Originally posted by GeorgeS:
gunmaker,

Watch your tone. The chip on your shoulder must be inhibiting the flow of blood to that part of your brain governing judgment.
George

Secured creditors have collateral, so first means of repayment of the debt is the borrower, then perhaps personal guarantees of the company's principals, and then collateral if there was a reposession. I work for a large bank and this is all we do is equipment financing and leasing. Yes, there are a lot of smaller, regional type banks that don't know what there doing and finance equipment that they have no idea how much it will be worth in 2 yrs or 5 yrs. A company the size of Dakota I would never consider underwriting without personal gtys. And often times in a chp 7 the owners don't have anything left, but in a reorg the pgs can have a huge psychological effect because the owners guaranteed the debts personally. That being said, creditors rarely win in a reorg but they can still come out ok. We happen to be very good at remarketing collateral and in the past year have seen recoveries outweigh our losses. If it were my leases or loans, I wouldn't hesitate picking up the equipment in this market if I thought I could come out better than what Dakota was offering. The secured lendors are financing the equipment that is essential to the company's operations, like a cnc machine, etc, something the company cannot operate without. So Dakota is going to try and negotiate for certain, but they need the equipment if they are going to continue operations. There is a lot of money to be made in reorg situations, banks not knowing what they are doing and selling their secured debt to others, who do buy it for 50, 60, 90 or whatever cents on the dollar, and the company that buys the debt you can be sure understands the collateral and what it's worth and how much pressure they can put on the borrower/lessee to repay. The secondary purchasers can make huge gains on these deals.

Charlie Kokesh has been promising to bring us all the details on his new baby in the "Dakota, The News from Sturgis" but he never has put forth that feature piece on the .423 Dakota.

He and an employee have had two rifles built for it and have taken game with it in Africa, including Charlie's big Sable and his employee's cape buffalo. Teaser pictures and a few words in a few issues in 2005 are all so far, in two years or more.

That is about the quickest flop of a Big Bore cartridge in history, eh?

Great R&D when you can get it, gotta test all those new cartridges with safaris. Was the second .423 Dakota with Charlie's nephew-employee?

Just trying to keep it pertinent.

Thanks, RIP. The reason I let the thread run was because Dakota offered many options for big-bore enthusiasts.

Once the thread got into arguing over bankruptcy minutiae, legalities, alleged chicanery, (mis)management, etc., it was no longer relevant.


gunmaker,

We've all been asked to keep the discussions germane to the forum; when the threads are archived, they incur storage expenses. While Saeed has been very generous (he pays all the expenses (web hosting, storage, etc.)), having off-topic posts archived incurs unnecessary costs.

When I ask for topics to stay relevant, it is with the above in mind; it is not a personal power trip.

My opinions of Dakota (the company and the guns) are based on about 30 years of observations, and my interactions with the previous owners.
Are they nice rifles? Yes. Are they perfect? No. Are they expensive? Yes. Are they worth it? Not in my opinion, and their price structure for wood (overgraded) and options (overpriced) is absurd.

Would I buy one for half the price? Probably, after checking for flaws in its fit and function.

Would I pay the inflated prices some are asking for Winchester M-70s? No.

George

Thanks for the honest reply George.

I understand the storage issue. I just thought these ramblings about Dakota would be much more valuable to the members here than all the space that the archived political forum incurs.

George,

That is a damn good post. Damn good.

Thanks,

LD

Dakota was losing money hand-over-fist even under the protection of the bankruptcy filing. The creditors realized that a quick auction was the best way to salvage what little they could from a bad situation. The auction creates a pool of money to be split amongst the creditors. There is still going to be a lot of legal wrangling to decide which creditor has what security -- and even to decide who is a creditor and who is an equity holder. The bank's security interest is in doubt and Kokesh is claiming a huge chunk of pre-bankruptcy equity was really debt. It's still a huge mess.

The bank and other creditors were free to bid on any and all assets (if they thought they were worth more than the stalking horse bidder). They didn't. NO ONE else bid on the entire operation and even I can understand why. It really is that f***ked up.

The bankruptcy examiner said in his report that Kokesh lied to the bank when Dakota took out the last loan installment. Dakota was claiming that it was due a big chunk of money from the Kingdom of Jordan when in fact Dakota owed the customer. The bank will probably go after Kokesh and Dakota for bank fraud. Kokesh's investors will likely go after him for securities fraud. The examiner's report also made note of possible federal firearms violations. The IRS is looking into non-qualified "business expenses". The story is far from over.

The only thing that the auction settles is the size of the pie that creditors will recover out of the Dakota carcass. Creditors will now be looking elsewhere for further recovery (if any). What is unknown is the agreement between Kokesh and the people putting up the new money for the asset purchase.

George, Dakota makes big bore rifles and it will be interesting to see if they drop their proprietary line of cartridges. Apparently it was a big money loser for them.

George,
You feel about Dakota exactly as I do. It could not be said better. Thank you.

And thanks ForrestB, for the reports of possible/suspected:

Bank Fraud
Securities Fraud
Tax Fraud
Federal Firearms Violations


Proprietary Delusions of Grandeur started long before Charlie Kokesh got there, but he surely took that one to a new level of insanity, for whatever reason.

I don't think that I would place a deposit and order a rifle from someone who had a proven track record of not paying his debts.

Really hope someone can "right' the sinking ship. I got the delivery on a Dakota 450 rifle about 7 years ago and the workmanship and function could not be surpassed. A great rifle, but it appears the last few years, quality has really falled off, pure choice of calibers, expensive shotguns, safaris,etc. have gotten them off the track.
Hope they make it back with a quality rifle!!!

Dak