The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Dakota Arms to be Auctioned Off WednesdayGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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RIP Thank-you very much I will be as helpful as possible Does this mean that I am now "one of us" Donkey | |||
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All of are "one of us" as soon as we post a certain number of times. It is an automatic function of the forum software. Welcome to AR! "Experience" is the only class you take where the exam comes before the lesson. | |||
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It may take me some time to catch on. I'll start doing more checking in my waking hours usually about 2:00 AM | |||
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Donkey, how long ago did you do your sentence in Trinidad? Mine was pretty recent. Something I heard when I first arrived, but did't understand yet "the most beautiful sight around here is seeing trinidad in your rear view mirror". I still have friends there and visit occasionally though. Steve | |||
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Nesika was purchased for cash and/or stock by Dakota Arms and there can be no default. Nesika's founders could certainly bid on the Nesika name and production assets in the bankruptcy auction. Dakota assumed a note from Nesika to one of it's founders (Mr. Harrison) in the amount of about $250,000 that is secured now by some machinery. Dakota is claiming that the Harrison security agreement is deficient and that Harrison should be treated as a general creditor. However, Dakota has been making payments on the note during bankruptcy so there must be some preference there. I think there is logic in trying to sell as much of the Dakota Arms assets as 'going concern' businesses. Nesika may in fact be the best positioned of the Dakota business lines to again operate independently. At the end of the day, the Bankruptcy Trustee and the Bankruptcy Court in Minneapolis will make the final determination as to how to return as much money as possible to the creditors. Once the auction concludes and the proceeds are collected there will probably be a legal fight over the money because many of the claims are disputed. After that, the civil and criminal proceedings begin and that will be the fun part. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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Welcome to AR. I'm curious what you think has improved about the 76. Do/did you work there? Do you think cutting the threads out with a wire EDM is an improvement over using a shaper & mandrel cutting around .0003" each pass? Do you mean Trinidad or 200 miles North? Both? I graduated from TSJC in '92 and worked at Dakota for 4 1/2 years. I hope whoever buys Dakota splits it back into the separate business that were acquired after Kokesh purchased it. I know there's some good people working there now & I hope they don't all lose their jobs. Whoever buys Dakota needs to put it on the slimfast plan. While I was there we (around 30 TOTAL employees) were stocking around 50 rifles a month through the wood shop. I've heard this is the same # of rifles built using up to 80 or so employees. Now the wages & bennies are much higher and 50 more people making the same # of guns using some of the newest, VERY expensive CNCs in this area. While I worked there I spent a ton of time fishing with the bean counter and his son. It's pretty easy to see from my little corner why Dakota is in this mess. | |||
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I attended CST and actually taught there on two occasions once for five years after it was bought by Robert and again for two years just recently. P.O. attended at CST then started TSJC. I believe the threads are cut with a thread hob by CNC the lugways are EDM'd | |||
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ForrestB, Being new to to AR I hope you don't find this to straightforward if I ask. Are you a creditor or an attorney? I apologize in advance if this is. Donkey | |||
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I know a smith that went to the Arnold Arms out of biz auction and won the pile of a few dozen name brand barrel blanks for ~2k. Later he was told, by Murphy Auctions, that an internet bid had been received, and that he had really lost. Two days later the barrels started showing up on Ebay. | |||
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AFAIK the current 76 has to be missing some of it's receiver threads with more missing on the extractor side. Or, the threads have been opened up WAAAAAY past the 1"-16 standard on a M70. It's just my personal gripe that FN and others did it to the 98 and Winchester & Dakota have done it to the M70. I hear that Dakota is paying around $100 per receiver to have someone else do this wire work. Dakota acquired a larger $$$$$ wire EDM to do this operation and couldn't get a good hole. More money pissed away when it was cheaper/better to do it "old school" in the first place. While I was there we were getting gun drilled receiver blanks around 36" long from Krieger. I think we were paying $15 for each 36" .705" hole. It took a good machinist around 30-45 minutes to shave the raceways. I don't understand why they would now make an inferior part (just my personal opinion) for more money. It just seems every time they through cubic $$ at anything it turned into a more expensive way to create a cheaper part. The wood shop stopped using the Milltronics CNC that was new in '93 or '94 and bought a new Fadal. Did this make the stock faster??? Not by much. they should have bought a CNC router that is designed to cut wood @ 25k rpm and 300 ipm. It only took 1 hour to use the Milltronics. At 50 guns a month with more plastic guns in that # what would justify the expense of a new Fadal running fewer stocks per month than before?? At an average of 168 working hours a month the Milltronics was sitting for 118. If it was buried in work I could understand purchasing something faster, but they bought something more expensive that runs stocks around the same speed. Too many places they threw too many $$ and got less in return. I doubt management would admit making any mistakes. The first step in the road to recovery is admitting these mistakes. It's pretty easy for an armchair quarterback like me to call 'em like I see 'em. Now I'm trying to convince myself why I need to spend $$ on a CNC upgrade for my manual mill when all my machines aren't running 24/7 now. Especially after seeing what has happened to Dakota. | |||
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It's much worse than that donkey. Forrest knows what is going on there because for many years it has been/is his job to know what is indeed going on at many such places. He really does that well. LD  | |||
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Actually the 76 now uses 1 1/16 x 18 tpi, it is missing a portion of threads were the extractor cut is made. What I personally didn't like about the broached receivers was the amount of roughness left behind that was hand polished out no doubt increasing the lug raceway. I didn't have an older commercial F/N apart, however the one's used by Browning in the early days have the cut running thru both sides but not into the threads. I don't remember if all commercial F/N's are this way. A buddy of mine who is a Mauser purist says the inner ring should be completly intact. Personally I feel it was only put in there to give the bbl something to bottom out on. If the receiver ring is of sufficient size I don't know why this would matter. Donkey | |||
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LD That is what I like about his posts very matter of fact with no prejuidice towards any-one in particular. Similiar to Joe Friday on Dragnet "Just the Facts Maam" Donkey | |||
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gunmaker, Thanks for the information, hinting at why I had to pay $200 plus shipping to have the threads recut on a Dakota 76 action that had been languishing at Brownells for years before I ransomed it for $2500 first ransom installlment. I sent it back to Dakota, then they sent it somewhere else to be fixed by recutting new and larger threads, eh?  | |||
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Donkey, I'm in the investment business and together with my partners have followed Dakota looking for an opportunity to make some money there. As it turned out, we just couldn't see a way to make it work so we declined to bid. I really do hope someone smarter than me will make a go of it at Dakota. There's certainly room in the gun industry for a good semi-custom maker geared to build about two hundred rifles per year priced about half of what Dakota has averaged. We signed a confidentiallity agreement in order to see the auction materials so I won't post any specifics from them. However, the bankruptcy examiner's report is in the public domain and is far more interesting than the puff-piece put out by Dakota and the firm running the auction. The examiner's report is factual and even-handed, but together with SEC documents filed by Kokesh's investment partnerships paints a vivid picture of malfeasance on the part of Kokesh and his management team. Kokesh's fleeced investors should be picking his bones clean in the near future. From an investment standpoint, I think the amount of money it would take to salvage Dakota would be better invested with Waffen Fabrik Hein or a start-up operation without the lagacy issues associated with Dakota. A major problem is that the gun manufacturing business is plagued with low returns given the high fixed-investment required. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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Forrest, I appreciate your candor on this issue, would you mind e-mailing me on where to view these SEC filings Thanks again 2/28/07 should be very interesting in lovely Sturgis, SD Donkey | |||
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 Aw shucks. I was hoping you would be bidding. It would be nice to see someone that knows fine rifles & good business buy the company. Maybe my old boss from Taconic who can stock a rifle and run/own a large machine shop will be bidding??? I don't know. We'll see what happens in the near future. | |||
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Don Why did they have to recut the threads? Were they screwed up? donkey It looks like Cyle Miller, now the General Manager got his 18 TPI from his Miller actions stuck in the 76. Sounds like the old 76 has been changed so much they should rename it 77 or something. | |||
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I hope that we can all learn something from the Dakota debacle: Quality and customer service are paramount. | |||
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gunmaker, So does the Nesika (1 1/16 x 18) I believe the Rigby was using the 1 1/16 major for some time, alas the 76 now uses a Nesika style firing pin also. donkey | |||
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gunmaker, Don is my joking title as godfather. You can call me Ron. Or you can call me Rip, but ya doesn't have to call me Don.  The action was square and true but the threads were so boogered and rough a barrel could not be screwed in. Could not be simply cleaned up without going to a larger thread size. Real semi-custom touch, eh? donkey, Don Key? Hee haw. How does the newer Nesika-style firing pin differ from the old (Don Allen designed) firing pin? | |||
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Some SEC filings for Technology Funding Venture Partners can be found here: http://www.techfunding.com/filings.html Also look at the SEC Edgar data base for each of the Technology Funding partnerships. Here's one search for TFV IV: http://pro.edgar-online.com/ExpandedSearch.aspx?site=0a...TURE%20PARTNERS%20IV It's a lot of reading but a good securities lawyer will have a field day comparing what's in the TFV SEC filings with the statements Kokesh made to the court appointed bankruptcy examiner. ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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Those financial wizards were losing their shirts long before they acquired Dakota as a sideline to their Biomedical, Communications, Hi-Tech Empire. Charlie wears a lot of hats: ............................. President, CEO, CFO, and Chairman of: Technology Funding Inc. ............................................... Managing General Partner of: Technology Funding Ltd. ................................................ CEO of: Dakota Arms Inc. and What else? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What happened? Did the other rats jump the sinking ship leaving Charlie sailing solo? Micromanager mania, or last man standing? It seems Charlie knew he was doomed and decided to go have some fun on safari before the final stroke of the axe: "Geez, we're losing on everything else, why not acquire something I can have fun with for a while before I run that into the ground too?"  | |||
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This has all been very educational. I ordered a Miller 6 YEARS ago, and sent in my deposit. I have not received squat in return. At this point, nature and age have made it impossible for me to use it if it did show up. Had they had the courtesy...no...the DECENCY, to tell me 3 or 4 years ago that they apologized, but would be unable to return/deliver anything to me, I could have at least gone ahead and bought a modern Hi-Wall or Sharps, or something else and enjoyed it a bit. So,Dakota is gone....well, as they say in the old country, TOUGH KASHITSKY. One might say they have only reaped what they sowed. My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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I guess he is not addicted to situps. | |||
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Please stop showing the picture of that rubbed three year old brownie. The poor thing's mother might have been in the spruce behind the beachfront had "the hunter" taken the time to get out of the boat before shooting. Utterly disgusting and seen enough already. Where's the "puking" graemlin? | |||
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  I'm not sure if you're just trying to get a rise out of me on this one??  While you may have read this over and over in gun rags, I assure you Don had NOTHING to do with designing the 76. I see in your signature you've got satterleearms.com. Stu could set you straight on this one.  | |||
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Maybe you'll enjoy this one a bit more: Mr. and Mrs. Kokesh - taken a couple of years ago when they were cutting a wide swath on the Santa Fe social circuit. Prison food can be a terrific diet plan.  ______________________________ "Truth is the daughter of time." Francis Bacon | |||
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All hat and no cattle. | |||
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which one weighs more? Which one has more hair? Which one should have been shot? Rich DRSS | |||
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RIP, Excuse me Don RIP the firing pin now used stops inside the bolt and is very similar to the Nesika hence my designation "Nesika style F/P". The old 76 F/P stopped on the cocking piece inside the shroud. Armed with this information and three bucks you should be able to buy a beer. Speaking of beer one of my business ventures for eleven years was called Guido's. A guy has to support his Gunsmything habits some way! gunmaker, Remember the patent expired a long time ago on the wheel, letting any one put there "spin" on it sometimes improving it, sometimes not. Donkey | |||
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I think the bear is big...it just looks small next to Kokesh. ****************************************************************** R. Lee Ermey: "The deadliest weapon in the world is a Marine and his rifle." ****************************************************************** We're going to be "gifted" with a health care plan we are forced to purchase and fined if we don't, Which purportedly covers at least ten million more people, without adding a single new doctor, but provides for 16,000 new IRS agents, written by a committee whose chairman says he doesn't understand it, passed by a Congress that didn't read it but exempted themselves from it, and signed by a President, with funding administered by a treasury chief who didn't pay his taxes, for which we'll be taxed for four years before any benefits take effect, by a government which has already bankrupted Social Security and Medicare, all to be overseen by a surgeon general who is obese, and financed by a country that's broke!!!!! 'What the hell could possibly go wrong?' | |||
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LMFAO!!!  | |||
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Just dug some more dirt, rumors??? Can't verify.  A very few important people were told to go home last week. Not sure if this means fired or something else. Take this for what it's worth. Just hearsay.Added Tuesday( I heard this again form a different source yesterday-Monday. I haven't talked to anyone that is currently or recently employed at Dakota for a while and can't verify this for sure.) | |||
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I talked to the company in charge of managing the sale/auction this morning. He would(could) not tell me if someone actually bought Dakota. This information I was seeking was not public record yet. He did say that tomorrow the court should rule on the sale(not that he said there was one). I assume there was a high bidder, but using the word "high" to describe the bidder could be a misnomer. It sounds like there weren't as many interested in bidding as I thought would be. The guy at the sale management company told me as soon as it becomes a matter of public record he will forward that information to me. Possibly by the end of this week.
donkey I had never heard that about the 98 firing pin regulating protrusion inside the bolt. Only if the bolt isn't closed. I had to check out 4 different manufacturers of bolts. With just the bare bolts and several different bare firing pins the max protrusion was around .090". With the bolt shroud screwed in and the cocking piece on the pin I got an average of .057". Since I'm currently reworking some prints on a 3-position safety for a 98 I wanted to verify this. I'm not sure why Dakota would make such a change if it wasn't a problem in the first place. (more rumor I heard: Dakota wasn't machining the bolts in house any more.) Each revision to the 76 should look like software revisions. 76.03.13 Every revision was so much more costly than ever intended. Just think of the inventory you would have to keep to service all those different versions. | |||
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gunmaker, My verbage was way off on the 98 Mauser. The flanges on the firing pin are to stop forward movement of the firing pin when the bolt is open preventing dire consequences. The firng pin is stopped when the bolt is closed by the cocking piece contacting the shroud. When making your prints consider moving the cocking piece tongue closer to the cocking cam in the bolt, so the bolt handle doesn't have as much up and down play in the fired position. Don-Key is now just a lowly ASS  Keep an eye on me so I don't do this again  donkey | |||
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Moving that forward in the bolt shroud would create a huge liability. Piercing primers would make unhappy customers. A safer way to do this would be make a new cocking piece with a longer cam surface. I'm not working on those at the moment just the shroud. You're right it would keep the wiggle down.  | |||
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Gunmaker, have you heard what Cyle Miller's status is/will be? I would hope that the Miller Arms two designs would be spun off as well to someone who loves their single shots. Rich DRSS | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores Dakota Arms to be Auctioned Off Wednesday
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