Perhaps this has been discussed before, but what the heck. Apart from the guns these are chambered in, which of these two 416 cartridges would folks here prefer? I would handload either, at somewhat reduced pressure. Probably a 400 gr at about 2150, simply due to recoil concerns. But maybe not.

One thing I can tell you is that down-loaded to 400 grains @ 2150 is the exact equal to the 450/400 3 1/4" which has a good history on heavy DG. I believe the original 404 Jeffery loading was that too.

quote:

Originally posted by 376 steyr:
One thing I can tell you is that down-loaded to 400 grains @ 2150 is the exact equal to the 450/400 3 1/4" which has a good history on heavy DG. I believe the original 404 Jeffery loading was that too.

I figured that it should work well, given the history with these old British cartridges. I'm a bit recoil averse when it gets up to these levels and likely would shoot it better. Just looking at the Nosler loading data, it appears that the Ruger 416 may be a little more amenable to loading at those velocities than the 416 Rem. At least from what they indicate are their most accurate loads.

trust me, you will be happier and healthier putting a good mercury recoil reducer in the butt stock. I have a 550 Gibbs wildcat.

I have rifles in both the 416 Remington and Ruger. For Alaska, I use the 350 TSX at fairly close to max loads. As to the cartridges, I like both. The Ruger has a few grains less case capacity, but ample for me. If, I had to choose one over the other, I would choose the Ruger. That choice would be based more on the rifles than the cartridges.

quote:

Originally posted by JeffreyPhD:
Perhaps this has been discussed before, but what the heck. Apart from the guns these are chambered in, which of these two 416 cartridges would folks here prefer? I would handload either, at somewhat reduced pressure. Probably a 400 gr at about 2150, simply due to recoil concerns. But maybe not.

It doesn't make logical sense, but I still prefer the old 416 Rigby. Ballistically they're all pretty much the same. I know, the Rigby takes a larger action and in a more expensive rifle due to its Cordite beginnings, but I only use it in Africa, and its all part of the experience.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
It doesn't make logical sense, but I still prefer the old 416 Rigby. Ballistically they're all pretty much the same. I know, the Rigby takes a larger action and in a more expensive rifle due to its Cordite beginnings, but I only use it in Africa, and its all part of the experience.

I get that. This year I took a 300 H&H to Namibia for pretty much the same reason.

The best one is the one YOU own. There are trade offs to every cartridge. I have have the rem. and I read every 416 rem thread that comes up to reenforce my great decision to own one. I do enjoy shooting cast bullets at low velocity and low recoil at deer. I only hope that some day I will have to "worry" about whether I have enough gun.

either one you get will do anything you require of it, especially stoke your imagination every time you dream about the big stuff you could hunt with it some day

If the cartridges are about the same velocity wise there would be NO difference between the two, it's the same with every cartridge / caliber, velocity is the only difference, the bullet has no idea what case pushed it down the barrel only how fast. You might like a fatter case, your friend a longer skinny one, some like belts some don't, some like the way this one feeds but not that one, so velocity is the only real difference, and then the recoil reflecting that difference...

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
trust me, you will be happier and healthier putting a good mercury recoil reducer in the butt stock. I have a 550 Gibbs wildcat.

I started using a suppressor and am never going back!

"The King is dead, long live the King!"
Who can remember 1989 ! Remington launches the 416 Rem Mag to the public and the gun scribes went ape shit on the wonder child that would be the death of the 375H&H.

The "best invention ever in cartridges in this century" or something like that according to Frank Barnes ......
And here we are today. Remington as they always do have killed off their own offspring.

Winchester stubbornly still hangs in there on the 416 Rem but for how long ?

Then off course we have the Rigby ! If it were not for the efforts of Bill Ruger who knows what would have become of the grand dame of the 416's.

I remember a time when there was no Rigby ammo available at all. I bought a genuine Rigby on a auction at this time. When I eventually found a pack of ammo for the rifle the box of 20 rounds cost more than what i paid for the rifle at auction !

Ruger single handedly rekindled the fire by producing a affordable offering in 416 Rigby, though the original effort was a wholly unshootable affair with a 3/4 inch waterpipe for a barrel and a stock designed to put the most ardent of shooters off shooting for ever ! If ever there was a gun that ruined shooting and trigger discipline this was it ! If you did not flinch before this certainly would leave you with the nasty habit !

But then the inevitable.... lack of demand or the forces of economics saw the end of the Ruger Rigby. By now nostalgia has driven the Euro's to reproduce the original Rigby and we have a reliable source of very good ammo, brass and off course rifles at a price !

The last arrival again hailed as the diefinitive answer the the afore mentioned comes in the form of the 416 Ruger launched in 2008.

This was to be the final and definitive word on the 416 and yet here we stand barely 8 years later and the future looks bleak.

It rumoured that Ruger is killing off their Model 77 range. Whilst the 375 Ruger seems safe for now the 416 Ruger seems to be struggling. Other than a limited availability in factory guns,components are hard to come by.

So I shoot all 3 !

The Rigby's are big guns for a big cartridge !
The original and later reproduction Mauser's are big guns ! They stand tall in the safe ! Going full tilt there is no doubt the Rigby has the most felt recoil of the 3.

The Ruger in its current Guide gun offering ( if you can find one) is currently IMO the most practical..... as long as you shoot it with the fugly muzzle break thingy ! Without the brake the recoil is stout ! lay in enough brass for lean times and it should be a winner..... for now ?

The Remington ? well I like it cause ive had one since it's invention and having had myself a short stock custom built its like owning a guide gun just on a big action.

I think the Rem cartridge will hang on longer than the Ruger (but I've been wrong before).
I have a newer SC built Win Model 70 in 416 Rem. it's fairly trim & light for the caliber.
I load 77.0 grs. RE-15, Fed215M primers, Rem cases.
400 gr. Swift A frames print 3 shot clover leafs at 100 yds. and 400 gr. Barnes Banded solids are almost as accurate, and the group is 1/2" higher than the soft points. Both with the above load. Not max, but easy extraction, and easy on the shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by frankinthelaurels:
If the cartridges are about the same velocity wise there would be NO difference between the two, it's the same with every cartridge / caliber, velocity is the only difference, the bullet has no idea what case pushed it down the barrel only how fast. You might like a fatter case, your friend a longer skinny one, some like belts some don't, some like the way this one feeds but not that one, so velocity is the only real difference, and then the recoil reflecting that difference...

Right, of course. The animal doesn't care which case is used to propel identical bullets at identical velocity. Mainly, I was interested in how each cartridge would lend itself to hand loading at somewhat lower pressures. Given the Ruger has about 4 grains less capacity (per the Nosler site), it would seem more adaptable. Their list of most accurate loads for both rounds suggests that Remington likes 8-10 grains more powder to give the best accuracy. But that's just their test barrels, and who knows if it would hold true for any rifles I might use.

dogcat and ISS,

I wish I could use a mercury recoil reducer and/or a suppressor. California doesn't allow either one. I need to stay here for a while to come.

By recoil reducer, I believe he meant a cylinder of BBs hydraulics, or other media that fits into the buttstock to increase weight and spread out the recoil forces, therefore reducing recoil.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
By recoil reducer, I believe he meant a cylinder of BBs hydraulics, or other media that fits into the buttstock to increase weight and spread out the recoil forces, therefore reducing recoil.

That would help. I just can't order one with mercury in it.

I was comparing the water capacity for the 416 Rem and 416 Ruger with 400 gr. bullets (on the Nosler site).

This thread is the old 270 vs 30-06, ya just changed the numbers...You are the Buffalo could never tell the difference in the field.

If you become as proficient with your DG rifle as you should you will notice more difference in the length of bolt throw between the two than you will performance on game.

I've owned several 375 H&H bolt guns, and did experience that. Short stroked it once shooting at an Impala. Click! Glad it wasn't a buffalo.

Short stroke ?

Interesting that modern day DG hunters claim this to be an issue when the most sought after of original DG rifles were built on magnum actions ?

I will take any of these originals currently in my collection against a "short action" Ruger 4i6 !


Jeffery 404 Model A Mauser



Jeffery 500 Model A Mauser


Rigby 416 Model A Mauser



A modern rendition of Mausers iconic magnum
Mauser commemorative no 51/100
416 Rigby.


My "Bakkie rifle"
A 416 Rem magnum full stock 20 inch barrel Brno ZKK 602


A trio of 602's
the top rifle is "old faithful" a 375 H&H been with me since my 13th year shot more game with this gun never ever short stroked her.

quote:

Originally posted by JeffreyPhD:
I was comparing the water capacity for the 416 Rem and 416 Ruger with 400 gr. bullets (on the Nosler site).

Sorry it was my mistake.

quote:

Originally posted by ALF:
Short stroke ?

Interesting that modern day DG hunters claim this to be an issue when the most sought after of original DG rifles were built on magnum actions ?

I will take any of these originals currently in my collection against a "short action" Ruger 4i6 !


Jeffery 404 Model A Mauser



Jeffery 500 Model A Mauser


Rigby 416 Model A Mauser



A modern rendition of Mausers iconic magnum
Mauser commemorative no 51/100
416 Rigby.


My "Bakkie rifle"
A 416 Rem magnum full stock 20 inch barrel Brno ZKK 602


A trio of 602's
the top rifle is "old faithful" a 375 H&H been with me since my 13th year shot more game with this gun never ever short stroked her.

No less than Karamojo Bell held the firm opinion that the length of the bolt throw was of utmost importance ! And numerous other very highly experienced African PH's have mentioned the same. Just because you have never experienced it does not mean it doesn't exist.

Phil:

Off course it does and so does guys firing off a shot before even aiming. Nerves do strange things!

In my experience when the shooting goes to fast and furious the opposite happens ! Thats why in my opinion a stout bolt stop is essential !

Way back when I was most fortunate to be invited to hunt at Rooipoort. The famous De Beers conservancy. We hunted driven Springbok.

I was a young lad in senior school and it was a unbelievable privilege. I had a brand new Musgrave "Free state" model rifle in 243 bought specifically for this hunt . We were placed in groups of 3 and 4 hunters in rocky outcrops and the Springbuck were driven by coloured guys on horses. They did it in a manner that you did not even see the horsemen.

When it was our turn to shoot I racked the bolt back so hard it bent and broke the rather flimsy bolt stop on that Musgrave and I stood with the bolt in my hand.

Alf,
Those are beautiful classic rifles and I would be proud to own any of those. My Impala (short stroke) story dates to my first Africa trip in 1999. I think I had the 1st timer jitters.

Between the Remmie and the Ruger, I would get the Ruger if you want factory energy levels or less. The Ruger will fit in a shorter action and potentially in a lighter, easier carrying rifle. Simple, practical, potentially less expensive.

If you hand load and want more options, then the 416 Rigby is the cartridge, since it can be hand loaded to 416 Weatherby levels. But what does one get with such a Rigby? Longer range and an all around cartridge for buffalo up close and hartebeest or eland far away.

So again, if hunting under 250 yards, then you do not need the Rigby and the Ruger could be the handier cartridge and rifle.

Since you mentioned recoil, you can also consider putting 350 grain projectiles in the 416 Ruger. 350 grains at 2500 fps will get you a little more range than the 2150 fps mentioned above.

One needs to remember that short stroking the rifle is an error of technique, not a mechanical error.

I put in a fair amount of time with a .416 Rigby bolt gun and really haven't ever seen a problem like this for me. Of course, I do tend to have some wasted motion as I smack the bolt stop each time I work the action, but my only issues in the field have been ammo related and trying to fit "just one more" in the rifle.

I like the Remington cartridge a bit better, but that is predjudice from still feeling that Ruger stabbed us in the back with the defunct assault weapon ban.

Either will do what you want it to do. Getting a lighter rifle kind of defeats the stated purpose of downloading it for recoil tolerance, though. Muzzle brakes do work...better with higher pressure rounds, but they also are unpleasant to be around if you have your hearing protection off kilter a bit.

short stroking is one problem but even if you are operating things as they should be a longer bolt throw takes a tiny bit longer than a short bolt throw and when you are in danger and under stress that tiny bit of time can make a real difference. Which is what Bell and others are referring too.

I can't see a reason to carry an action that big for a medium bore. 450 Righy would be worthwhile though.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
short stroking is one problem but even if you are operating things as they should be a longer bolt throw takes a tiny bit longer than a short bolt throw and when you are in danger and under stress that tiny bit of time can make a real difference. Which is what Bell and others are referring too.

WDM Bell? Didn't know he ever wrote about that issue.

I had various 416 Rigbys and 404, Ruger, Dakota, Heym Express. All nice rifles which performed well. However I made the step to a 416 Rem Win 70 and was impressed by the more compact package. This year I handled a 416 Ruger Hawkeye Alaskan in Africa and was so impressed that I ordered the Guide Gun. So while I like the classic catridges I do not like this long guns anymore. Besides that if I want horsepower I prefer a 458 Lott over a 416 Rigby hence the Remington and the Ruger are more attractive.

quote:

Originally posted by JeffreyPhD:

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
short stroking is one problem but even if you are operating things as they should be a longer bolt throw takes a tiny bit longer than a short bolt throw and when you are in danger and under stress that tiny bit of time can make a real difference. Which is what Bell and others are referring too.

WDM Bell? Didn't know he ever wrote about that issue.

Bell did write about cartridges and before he died he said he had wished the 308 Win had been around when he was hunting as it was shorter than many of the rounds he used.

416 B&M

I like a 12 3/4-13 in LOP a short action keeps the end of the bolt away from my nose. I cycle the action at the shoulder---yes action length can make a difference.

I have a sweet 416 RM in a Mauser action--great gun--just doesn't work as well for me as a short action M-70

Bell did write about short stroking and he also did not like recoil !
He did not actually promote the 7x57 for elephant hunting others after assumed he did.
He did not like the recoil on the 350 Rigby, the 416 Rigby and the 400-450.

What is interesting is that of all the Rigby 7x57's that he had only one was actually a No.1 and this he ordered after hunting Africa.

quote:

Originally posted by jaegerfrank:
I had various 416 Rigbys and 404, Ruger, Dakota, Heym Express. All nice rifles which performed well. However I made the step to a 416 Rem Win 70 and was impressed by the more compact package. This year I handled a 416 Ruger Hawkeye Alaskan in Africa and was so impressed that I ordered the Guide Gun. So while I like the classic catridges I do not like this long guns anymore. Besides that if I want horsepower I prefer a 458 Lott over a 416 Rigby hence the Remington and the Ruger are more attractive.

with the added note that the 416Rigby with its 130-grain capacity can be hand loaded to power levels above the 458 Lott.

If that minute difference in bolt throw is a problem someone needs to give up hunting and sell shoes downtown, cuz cousins he can't chew gum and walk at the same time!!

As to the difference in a 416 Ruger or Remington, I see none at all..I like them both, and I want them shooting a 400 gr. bullet at 2350 to 2400 FPS with a dollop of RL-15 and my guns do that with 78 grs. and that's my load. and 80 to 82 grs. is absolute max in most modern guns that Ive worked with.. If that's too much recoil then I'd opt for my .375 H&H or a 375 Ruger.

Ray,
Do you have any experience with which cartridge is more amenable to loading down to about 2150 fps w/ a 400 gr bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
If that minute difference in bolt throw is a problem someone needs to give up hunting and sell shoes downtown, cuz cousins he can't chew gum and walk at the same time!!

As to the difference in a 416 Ruger or Remington, I see none at all..I like them both, and I want them shooting a 400 gr. bullet at 2350 to 2400 FPS with a dollop of RL-15 and my guns do that with 78 grs. and that's my load. and 80 to 82 grs. is absolute max in most modern guns that Ive worked with.. If that's too much recoil then I'd opt for my .375 H&H or a 375 Ruger.

One bonus on my Brno 602 in 416 Rem is that I load 5 down in the max and one up the spout !
The Ruger Guide gun in 46 Ruger only holds 3 of those fat boys down in the mag.

Now that may not sound like a big difference but I once ran into a running out of "bullets" situation with giraffe where I had to walk back home to get more ammo to get the job done !

I have been hunting with a rifle that takes 2 in the magazine, and one in the chamber for so many years, shot many elephants, many lions and hundreds of buffalo.

Never felt I needed more in the magazine.

I would take the Rigby over the Remington any day.

In fact, that is exactly why I developed our 375/404 instead of using the 375 H&H.

I prefer a bit more velocity, without having to keep everything at maximum pressure.

no meaningful difference -- find the rifle package you like and go with that.