what happened to the 400 nitro express???

http://www.kynochammunition.co.uk/

there is the 400/375 n.e., 400/350 n.e. but what about the 400???

i have a 400/375 ne example (basicly a 30-06 with a belt necked to 375

but was there a 400 n.e.???

i see the 400 purdey,400/360 purdey, 400/360 w.r.

a revival of the 400 n.e. would be cool. basicly a 240 wby necked up

a 2.6" ish version would be cool...shoot a snooty ol n.e. out of a rebarreled 06

yes the 400 hawk and whelen are there but if you lengthen the case to about 2.6" it will be a ballistic twin.

if it is a rimmed 3" case like the purdey i dunno...

The 450/400 is AKA 400 NE.

the 450 is the parent case

the 400/375...where is the 400 parent case???

I'm sorry, I guess I don't understand the question.

Are you asking if any cartridge was ever called the "400 NE",

Or are you asking what the parent case is of the 400/375 NE (Belted)?

for an example...the 450/400 is the 450 ne necked to 400

so the 400/375 n.e. is a necked down version of the 400...where is the 400???

so yes...was there ever a 400 n.e. or is the 400 purdey pretty much it?

All my life I have heard the 450-400 referred to as the 400 N.E.??????????

the 400/375 nitro is a 30-06 size.

the 450/400 or 400 jeffery is a 450 case

by the way...i read somewhere that nitro express reffers to the propellent (nitro) and type of bullet (express) the express bullet i think was a semi hollow point to aid expansion.

EXPRESS

this term seems to go back to the early breechloading rifles. the speed of their bullet compared to the old muzzle loaders had them referred to as having "the speed of an express train"

when the nitro powders came into use the name was carried over, hence nitro express to differentiate from the bpe.

According to Hallowell & Co. Gun abbreveviation & Gun Terms

Thier list is extensive and a good place for reference material.

Nitro - Refers to the chemical composition of the smokeless powder used to propel shot (or a bullet) from a firearm. It is a solid form, based on nitroglycerine. Generally adopted in the very late 19th century, it very quickly replaced traditional gunpowder (Carbon, Sulpher and Saltpeter) because it did not generate nearly as much smoke, because it was safer to handle and because it burned slower---allowing the projectile to accelerate longer as it moved down the barrel and consequently reach a higher muzzle velocity.

Nitro Express - A marketing term dating from the early days of nitro powders, non-specifically denoting a more powerful cartridge than the black powder cartridge it might be compared to. "As powerful as an express train."

The term origenated when to gain velocity a lighter bullet was used with the same load that was for a heavier bullet, and thus was dubbed "EXPRESS TRAIN" ammo for use on deer, and Moose, in the same rifle that was used for dangerous game with heavier bullets.

Example: a 450 bore 3 1/4" with a 480 gr bullet, as standard, while the 450 "Express Train" load used a 300, or 320 grain bullet, to reduce recoil, and gain speed.

Gentlemen, the term "EXPRESS" in conjunction with the word "NITRO" has come to mean a flanged cartridge, designed to be used in break-top double,combination gun, and single barrel rifles.and really has lost it's origenal meaning, which was a marketing ploy!

500/450NE 3 1/4" Means a 500 NITRO case necked down to .450 bore,(lands dia) useing modern smokeless powder, and with a 3 1/4 inch case!

To the Britts, the first number is always the parent case, the second number is the bore size, and the NE is somkeless powder, and the last number is case length! Americans do it exactly backwards to the Britts. EXAMPLE: the American 338-378 WBY, which is the .338 bore (groove dia) useing the 378 WBY case necked down!

quote:

Originally posted by MacD37:
To the Britts, the first number is always the parent case, the second number is the bore size...

That's boom stick's question Mac: where did the "400" in the 400/375 come from?

The 400/375 was Holland's first belted cartridge so there was no 400 belted upon which to base the 400/375. It's a different case than the 375 belted (which didn't exist when the 400/375 was made.)

I don't know the answer.

BS is questioning why if the "400" is being used as a parent case for so many cartridges, where did the "400" itself go?

It could be that there is some confusion stemming from the British method of naming cartridges: 450/400, 500/416, etc.

Unfortunately, I don't know why we don't have a 400 NE or 400/400. I don't know enough about double rifle cartridges to even take a SWAG at answering your question.

quote:

Originally posted by Tex21:
BS is questioning why if the "400" is being used as a parent case for so many cartridges, where did the "400" itself go?

It could be that there is some confusion stemming from the British method of naming cartridges: 450/400, 500/416, etc.

Unfortunately, I don't know why we don't have a 400 NE or 400/400. I don't know enough about double rifle cartridges to even take a SWAG at answering your question.

correct!!!

maybe we need to revive the 400 nitro express!
it it is 2.6" we can get 400 whelen/hawk performance on an 06 bolt.

we need a cart historian here

oh here are the carts i have found...

there are the necked down versions and there is the 400 purdey...is the 400 purdey the parent case then the rim cut and the extractor groove put in?

the 375 h+h belted and rimmed are different...

quote:

Originally posted by boom stick:
oh here are the carts i have found...

there are the necked down versions and there is the 400 purdey...is the 400 purdey the parent case then the rim cut and the extractor groove put in?

the 375 h+h belted and rimmed are different...

..............Correct! But the 400/375 belted rimless is an animal all to it's self! Also the 400 Purdy is the same basic case as the 9.3X74R, which most historians believe was how the 9.3X74R case was made origenally, till tooling could be made to manufacture their own brass!

looks a WHOLE LOT like a 400 HH

Boomie:

Like the .450s, .500s, and .577s, there were originally a host of flanged, straight case .400 BPEs of various lengths, several being Kynoch proprietary rounds. The difference is that none were ever popular, or common. The later Purdey light nitro version, which doesn't seem to have been chambered by anyone but Purdey, is a 3" version of the old black powder case. There was never a "modern", full nitro loading of the .400 straight.

And yeah, the .400/.350, the .350 No. 2, and the five .400/.360s are all based on that case. The .400/.360 WR Rimless is just the flanged shell with the rim turned off and an extractor groove cut into it. The .400/.350 and .400/.360 Purdey appeared in 1899 and 1900, and the Germans responded with the 9.3X74R five years later. The 9.3 is almost identical, just .200" longer, so the .400/whatever cases are easily made from 9.3X74R.
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"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."

i looked at the 9,3x74 r and thought it would be cool to neck it to 400 but there were other stronger ones thus the demise of the 400 bp

sooooo....the 400 could be revived by means of the 9,3x74...hmmm...

Lets see.... a 9,3x74R, necked up to .40 cal....

Why that would be the 405 Winchester!!!

so you could neck the 9,3x74 up to 400 and get the original 400 bp but use smokeless powder thus making it the 400 nitro express!

get a ruger # 1 in 405 win and rechamber it with a 400 neck/throat reamer. just do it to 3" and stretch the necked up 9,3x74 brass some.

good for some extended pinky shooting...you could duplicate the 400 @ 2150 to be sure with less powder and recoil.

long live the original and now knighted new and improved 100 years late 400 nitro express!

Close boys, but no cigar!

The origin of the 9,3x74R is in America. In 1889 Winchester came out with the 38-90-217WCF. The next year HiWalls, ammunition, and brass went to Ludwig Loewe and Sons in Germany and to Winchester's London distributor.

Several years later(1900), the germans necked the base down to 9,3mm and created the x74R case. It was smokeless from Day One, so the germans could not have originated it. I do not know how close it is to any of the british BPE rounds.

NE the 405 Winchester is shorter, 2.58" VS 2.925" on the 38-90. It was pretty much the 38-72 necked up, or just enough of a variant on the black powder 40-72 to preclude chambering it.

I am shooting a 38-90 using 9,3x74R brass. Just neck it up .009" and load it. I am using a Krieger barrel and .377" bullets in mine, since it is a 375 barrel from Krieger, not a 38. Dave at CH4D gets the credit for the 375 version, about twenty years ago he had a DR built for Africa on the X74R. He figured out it would be pretty easy for a man with a Dremel tool to make the "3" in 9,3 into a "5" and create the 9,5x74R. Same dimensions.

The X74R would make a pretty nifty .40 caliber, although there is a 40 Basic that is this case in a 3.25" length...that would be a hammer...or even a .404 or .416 caliber. So many toys to dream about...and not enough $$$ or time left to do them all.

Rich
DRSS

ok so neck/throat ream the 405 win another .42" and get the new/old 400 nitro express nd shoot factory 405 win too...kinda like the 458 win mag/lott thing man..that would be cheap to shoot! cheap factory or reloads and the longer for hunting up to d.g. thats the cheapest rimmed big bore ever! (except for the 45-70 )

thanks for the great post rich...wadaya think of the new old 400 nitro?

modern powders and the strong ruger # 1 can revive this cart...

interesting info...

seems the 400 nitro is the beloved 395 bullet

http://www.midwayusa.com/guntecdictionary.exe/showterm?TermID=434

Definition for "400 Nitro Express 3"" : Bullet Diameter .395; Overall Loaded Length 3.55; Can be made from 9.3x74mm Rimmed; Rimmed Straight; Also called .400 Purdey 3"

Only the 400 Nitro For Blackpowder (3") and its forebears at the beginning of breechloading were .395 caliber. It seems the 400 Purdey (3") Light Express aka 400 Straight 3" was a .405 caliber.

Thanks, boom stick, I posted more on the ".395 Bullets" thread.