The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Rifles Big Bores .375 on elephantGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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Hi all, I've been salivating over Karl Stumpfe's elephant hunt offer on the Outfitters part of the forum. I have a .375 and have made two trips to Africa where it performed well. I'm looking through my finances to see if I can scrape up enough money for this hunt. If I can, I certainly will not be able to afford another rifle. My question is: Is there anyone here that has used a .375 for elephant, and what was your experience? Please, I do not want to get into a .375 vs .416 vs .458 caliber war. Thanks for the info: Allan | ||
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If you are not comfortable with the .375, I will loan you a .416 or a .458 Win. | |||
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Allan, I've done the hunt...do it! Plenty of Ele have been taken with a 375. Use a good modern solid and go git 'em :-) | |||
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Alan what you are really saying is that you have had two trips to Africa and 'you' performed well. You do your job and the .375 will do its job on anything. Go to it. | |||
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I killed my first Ele bull with a .375H&H over 15 years ago. I came home and immediately started looking for a larger caliber rifle. I have killed all my Buff with the .416Rem and all the rest of my Ele with a .458Lott or .458B&M. In two months I will be going for my next bull Ele, with Karl BTW, and using a 500NE, just for the fun of it. Since I speak from experience and not theory, I suggest nothing smaller than a .416 for Elephant. If I were you I would look into trading the .375 for a .416 or borrowing something that begins with a 4. Pagosa made a generous offer to loan you a proper rifle for Ele. Please consider it. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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LionHunter, Just out of curoisity, can you give us the story of the hunt for your first ele and what made you decide it wasnt enough gun? I have walked in the foot prints of the elephant, listened to lion roar and met the buffalo on his turf. I shall never be the same. | |||
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Yes , a good modern solid caliber .375 closely followed by the bullet caliber .458 or .510 of your PH and protector !  | |||
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375 worked for me. One shot, one dead elephant. Dave | |||
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We have had many clients use the Barnes 300gr Flat Nose Solid or the Woodleigh 350gr FMJ to shoot big adult Bulls. We have had just as many one shot kills with the 375 as clients using 416's or a 458 Lott. I think it's more about the bullets constuction and where the bullet goes as a general rule. | |||
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I was talking to one of Johan Calitzs PHs this year in Reno and asked him what caliber he liked on ele. He says he has seen more one shot kills with the 375 than anything else. They shoot some of the biggest bodied eles going and many of them each year so he should know. If you can shoot a 416 as well as a 375H&H that would definitely be a better choice IMO. | |||
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DUDLEY ROGERS told me the .375 H&H is a perfectly sound choice for the client hunter on any bull elephant. That was in an e-mail a while back. The best advise I ever heard: "Shoot the biggest caliber that you can shoot well AT THE END OF THE DAY AFTER carrying whatever YOU carry all day..." D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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Allan Normally I never, ever, respond, or get involved in any 375 of any sort, conversation or thread, and I am wondering if I should just not leave well enough alone and forget about this one as well? Let me tell you my perspective on 375 anything. I loath 375 caliber, I despise it with passion. Not because its a bad caliber, not because it won't do the job. Let me explain; There are many good remarks above, and things to pay attention to, as long as you understand where this comes from. First lets take the reason many PHs recommend 375 at all... It is NOT BECAUSE its a great Elephant Slayer. Its because SO MANY of the PHs get "Tourist Hunters".. Guys that are NOT EXPERIENCED big bore shooters, They bring in their mighty large bore elephant slaying big bores, because they read in the book that they needed this HUGE **** Caliber rifle, and they shot it exactly twice before leaving home and are SCARED SHITLESS of it! Ending up, not hitting a foot tube at 5 yards! PHs Know that these guys might not be as scared of a rat caliber as they are their mighty BOOM BOOM... So the 375 is for girls, and scared shitless Tourist Hunters. Not serious Shooters! This is the case 90% + of the time. On occasion there are serious shooters that use Rat Guns for elephants, but these people are shooters, and know exactly where to put that bullet and are very successful at it, by being careful what they do, and able to follow through, these guys are a small percentage of the rat caliber shooters. While I am a very strong proponent of Big Bores for elephant.. I like .458 + personally, and really hover around .500 caliber. But even then if you are not a shooter, you must understand that even so armed, this will not work miracles just because of caliber and power, You still have to do your part, caliber will not automatically make you successful! Within the last couple of weeks I have a fellow that has shot at least 5 elephants on this trip with a 500 MDM... My cartridge. My man is experienced just enough to get into trouble. On the first elephant, shoulder shot as I hear, elephant drops to the shot, hits the ground. All I can figure is that they were shaking hands and congratulating each other with such great success.... When Mr Elephant gets back up on his feet AGAIN.... 2cd Shot, knocks elephant to the DIRT a second time... Again he gets up, decides to leave town, My guy tries the rear spine shot, Misses, Elephant Crosses Border.... ELEPHANT GONE!!!!!!!! Why? Elephant don't just die because they are shot in the lungs, which this had to be, no bone was broken, or elephant could not get back up! What they should have done is KEEP SHOOTING immediately after that first shot knocked that elephant down! They DID NOT! Too busy patting each other on the back... Even the PH failed here. Had they continued to shoot, get at least one heart shot in, that elephant would have been toast.... Tourist Hunter with a Big bore... Not a shooter.... Next 4-5 elephant went much better with no losses. So there are good reasons PHs recommend rat calibers for Tourist Hunters.. It makes good sense. 375.... Common, just common..... If one has to choose 375, DArcy makes the best point here, choose the very best bullet you can, a proven Flat nose solid of proper construction absolutely will get the job done. As long as you do your part. And I will say, and have said, that I would rather have a 375 with a BBW#13 or North Fork, than any bigger bore with a F**K**G Round NOSE anything... In this case, your 375 is going to do better! If you don't choose the right sort of bullet, then it don't make a difference big bore or rat gun, you flip a coin for your success! Bigger is better..... If you are practiced and not shit scared of the bigger bore. 416 is a great beginners big bore, and is a major step ahead of the lesser rat calibers.... Bigger holes make a difference! Every shot on an elephant is not going to be a "Classic Brain Shot"..... Hell, I can have a bullet made on short order, and fired from a 30/30 and will reach the brain of an elephant every time, if I do my part in this matter, get a bullet in that brain, and its lights out, regardless of caliber. Also, most all elephants LOST, are due to screwed up brain shots..... either misses, or bullets veering off course from piss poor design. I don't watch videos of hunting anymore, but I can tell you I have watched a damn lot of elephants run away from someone trying to do the brain shot. I have taken only two brain shots, and the rest heart shots. Take the best shot you have, and by all means don't stop to pat each other on the back... Keep shooting.... Then shoot some more! But lets say that everything does not go PERFECT on your first shot! Miss the heart, hit the lungs! Elephant Lungs do not collapse as I understand, they are so large and heavy they are actually attached to the inside of the chest cavity to hold them up. So when a bullet enters them, they don't collapse, they remain intact. Bigger the hole, the more blood leaks in them. .458, .500, .416 makes a substantially bigger hole in those lungs, than rat calibers do. Big Bores make bigger holes in the heart. On near misses to the brain, big bores hit harder, and might just give you a quick chance for that second round! Things don't always go perfect in the field. When they do, 375 and a really proper bullet will be just fine, but so would one from a 30/30...... Why do I despise the 375 so much? Because I believe that anyone that wishes to undertake going elephant hunting should take it a hell of a lot more seriously, and use, train with, and be accustomed to a proper tool for the job. I have little respect for the "Tourist Hunter", that does not take the mission serious enough to be competent with a tool designed for the mission at hand, regardless of what that mission might be. Any of you do as you please, but I think if a fellow is to take his hunt seriously, he should prepare seriously. If a fellow is showing off for his friends, then its all a moot point anyway, the PH will either have some trouble, or have some fun shooting! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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while I have no dog in the fight and no experience shooting eles, many pros use the 375 or so it is reported. harry manners and wally johnson come to mind. on the one hand you indicated above the 375 is no good and then said with the right bullets, or paraphrasing Mr. Echols, the 375 is fine. how can an ele shot in the lungs not die rather quickly if the CNS begins shutting down? i am well aware i may be missing the point entirely! just curious. | |||
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We must agree that failing to practice WELL with one's rifle before going on a hunt is quite wrong, even morally. To endanger the people on the stalk with you, to endanger yourself, and to make a poor shot on your game is foul; if the result of failing to build your skills at home. See below, Clarence Darrow could not have made a "better case" for the bigger is better argument! {"better CASE" - get it?  }
D/R Hunter Correct bullet placement, combined with the required depth of bullet penetration, results in an anchored animal... | |||
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BlueFish Many pros use what they have at hand, and in most cases not much choice is available! I have hunted with at least a dozen PHs in 15 years, and have known MANY more. The vast Majority of them use whatever rifle they can get their hands on! Many rifles given to them by clients, many what they could afford, PHing don't make you rich, and Africa don't have the choices we enjoy! Yes, I said I would prefer a 375 with a real proper designed bullet over any big bore with a poor design and stand with that statement! Bullet Choice is Paramount to Success. Elephant Lungs do not collapse when you poke a hole in them... They are large, and if were not attached to the chest cavity wall, the elephant would suffocate as they would not hold up. So poke a small hole from a rat caliber, is WAY WAY different than that of a Big Bore... .458 and up. Now looking at your measuring tape you may not think its that much difference, but you look at the holes put in animal tissue and you will change your mind very quickly..... I did not say it would not eventually die... But it won't be nearly as quick as from a bigger bore, and bigger hole! You want these things over with rather quickly if at all possible, the more time you give this to play out, the more chance a real, serious, costly problem can occur. The cost can be life or death, or one hell of a lot of hard earned dollars, neither of which is acceptable! Michael http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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HEH.... Yeah, I get it... LOL... Thanks DR... M http://www.b-mriflesandcartridges.com/default.html The New Word is "Non-Conventional", add "Conventional" to the Endangered Species List! Live Outside The Box of "Conventional Wisdom" I do Not Own Any Part of Any Bullet Company, I am not in the Employ Of Any Bullet Company. I do not represent, own stock, nor do I receive any proceeds, or monies from ANY BULLET COMPANY. I am not in the bullet business, and have no Bullets to sell to you, nor anyone else. | |||
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 +.50 cal for me all the way too; no ''tourist hunter rat calibers'' allowed in my gun safe .505 Gibbs and .577 NE; my dream pairing for Africa! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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Pev, The 375 H&H has more than enough penetration on elephant for any reasonable shot on elephant even with RN solids. It can be counted on to exit on heart/lung shots unless the shoulder joint is hit. The 375 and 416 Rigby are known for their deep penetration. Where the 375 is marginal is on stopping a close range charge if the brain is missed. It just doesn't have the bullet weight necessary to be a reliable charge stopper. Hit the brain, no problem. Miss it, well ???? But you will have a PH to back you with what will likely be a large caliber rifle shooting heavy bullets. 465H&H | |||
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I believe brain shots are the only proper way to kill an elephant. And a 375 will do that without any problem as long as your aim is true. Forget all the bullshit about the bigbores "knocking them out" on a missed brain shot. The modern hunting videos have proven that a missed brainshot(even with a bigbore) often has no effect. BTW, I have shot one elephant. One shot to the brain with a 375 and a 300gr woodleigh FMJ. My recommendation would be to use the rifle that you have the most confidence in while shooting under pressure. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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Why rely on someone else to bail you out? I prefer to cover all options myself, not rely on someone else to save my life! Choose a "stopping caliber", not a "rat caliber"!  ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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I'm guessing that maybe most guys shoot the .375 better than something bigger. Dave DRSS Chapuis 9.3X74 Chapuis "Jungle" .375 FL Krieghoff 500/.416 NE Krieghoff 500 NE "Git as close as y can laddie an then git ten yards closer" "If the biggest, baddest animals on the planet are on the menu, and you'd rather pay a taxidermist than a mortician, consider the 500 NE as the last word in life insurance." Hornady Handbook of Cartridge Reloading (8th Edition). | |||
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And to think that once upon a time about the only weapons used against an elephant was spears.  _________________________ Glenn | |||
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I have had pass thru my hands rifles from 4 bore down. I never shot the 4 bore (8 bore yes) and I have shot 577's. None of these were fun and I can't figure out why you would want to do anything with these except elephant or buffalo. In other words...shoot them just enough so you know how and to know where the controls are. I have access to all these calibers including 505 Gibbs, 416 Rigby and Rem Mag. I shot my first buffalo with a 416 Hoffman and my second was going to be shot with my 9.3x62 but due to Delta's crappy service and leaving my rifle in Atlanta for two days it died from multiple round from a borrowed 375 H&H. It is much more comfortable to shoot the 375 and way more comfortable to shoot the 9.3x62. Why do you think you have to have a field artillery peice to shoot large animals? It is still bullet placement and bullet construction that gets the job done. I have never shot an elephant but I think the 375 and a Barnes bullet would get the job done. The majority of my animals be it Africa, Europe or the USA have fallen to the trusty old 30/06 and 180 Nosler Partitions. I do wish I had found the 9.3x62 and 286 grn. bullet combo earlier in my hunting career. At my point in life now...it makes little difference. I expect things to die downrage with my 9.3x62 and the same with the old 30/06. It is tough to beat confidence in your weapon. It makes up for some of my mistakes I am sure. You can borrow money but you can not borrow time. Go hunting with your family. | |||
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Okay....so lets say one go for the .375H&H for elephant, is the 350 grain bullett a big performance plus, ie the Norma PH ammo..? | |||
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The consensus around here is that flat nosed solids are the way to go. | |||
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One could argue bullets all day. The fact of the matter is the 375's reputation for outstanding penetration was built on the steel jacketed 300gr bullets. I used the 300gr woodleigh FMJ which has a "flat-ish" nose and I found penetration to be "more than adequate". Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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LionHunter has posted the same thing on other 375 versus others debates and I asked the same question then, but got no answer. LH since you say you speak from experience let us hear of your experience. Not much point in just making a statement and not following that up? | |||
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I would be happy to use a 375 or similar on a Bull, particularly later in the season but prefer something heavier for cows and especially in the early season amongst the heavy cover . | |||
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Michael458 - Well said, my friend.So now we hear from those who have admittedly NEVER killed an Ele and those whose vast Ele experience is based upon that "one" Ele they killed with a rat gun, as well as those who have "read about" long deceased Ele hunters of old. Then there are those who don't give a damn about using a rat gun, because their PH will be there with a "large bore" to clean-up their mess when so required. I do commend those folks who admit to their level of experience and suggest everyone should be reading critically those comments from posters who do not quantify their experience. BTW, PHs also have miss-fires, miss the brain or the whole animal and generally carry ammunition of questionable and mixed origin given to them by clients. I never count on the PH to save my life and believe it a serious error to do so. Michael458 has killed multiple Ele (and other species of DG), as have I and a number of other regular posters here on AR. If you follow the threads, you will begin to recognize those with more than a few safaris. eagle27 - For the life of me I can never understand how some people on AR think they are entitled to in depth biographies of others? I'm not aware that I owe you or anyone else more than I am willing to post. I have said since my first posts on AR that everything I say is the truth and my statements of experience are easily verified by anyone willing to make the effort; some have and confirmed this to be true and I also immediately provided evidence to Saeed when my veracity was originally questioned by someone with a total safari count of exactly ONE. I have only ever posted one or two very brief descriptions of my hunts. It's my choice not to do so and I do not generally post pics of my animals either. I have what I believe to be valid reasons to have adopted that course of action. As to my first bull Ele, I'll only say that after being amongst them, I felt under gunned, and my PH felt the same about the .375 - he carried a .416Rem and felt it a distinct step above. I killed that Ele with two rounds but didn't like the circumstances. In any event, I can be counted among those others here who really don't care what another person chooses to have in hand at the moment of truth. It's your life and you get to choose how you'll defend it in the gravest of extremes. But when asked, I am not shy about stating my opinion based upon my personal experience. Rant Off. Semper Fi. Mike ______________ DSC DRSS (again) SCI Life NRA Life Sables Life Mzuri IPHA "To be a Marine is enough." | |||
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I should have added the following in Red. Pev, The 375 H&H has more than enough penetration on elephant for any reasonable shot on elephant even with RN solids. It can be counted on to exit on heart/lung shots unless the shoulder joint is hit. The 375 and 416 Rigby are known for their deep penetration. Where the 375 is marginal is on stopping a close range charge if the brain is missed. It just doesn't have the bullet weight necessary to be a reliable charge stopper. Hit the brain, no problem. Miss it, well ???? But you will have a PH to back you with what will likely be a large caliber rifle shooting heavy bullets and you can hope that he doesn't miss. 465H&H | |||
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The 350 grain will give you a little more penetration than the 300 which you don't need and a little more stopping power which you may need. The question is will it be enough? 465H&H | |||
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Jason, You and I must have watched some very different videos if that's what you've come away with. I'm not sure if the charge Mike Jines and Buzz Charlton took from that ele cow is still posted here on AR or not. If not, it's on Buzz's "The Essence of Elephant Hunting" DVD. Very specifically, Mike was shooting a 500NE while Buzz was shooting a 416 Rigby. All three shots, at VERY CLOSE RANGE missed the brain but the first strike from Mikes 500NE dropped that ele to it's knees, thereby STOPPING the charge. This allowed them to safely move off and as the cow got up and attempted to flee, Buzz put in several additional shots and finished it off. The very first video I posted on AR was of a tuskless cow taken with my 500NE with a frontal brain shot. She moved just as I pulled the trigger, resulting in the bullet hitting about 3" low and 3" to the left. She immediately sat on her haunches and pivoted to fall on her side whereby I hit her again with a heart shot. Point being that even though I missed the brain on that first shot, it knocked off her feet. "The modern hunting videos have proven that a missed brainshot (even with a bigbore) often has no effect."? Hmmm ... very different "modern videos" we have been watching indeed as I can't think of two better examples proving that the big bore rifles have a distinct advantage when it comes to elephant and that all to common "near CNS miss" with the frontal brain shot. My recommendation for buffalo and especially elephant is to get a big bore rifle AND DEVELOP CONFIDENCE in it, not simply accept that you can master the minimum allowed power level easily. | |||
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And to think, lots of the native spear hunters died in those pursuits! | |||
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Ssh! No doubt, but that's bad for the spear business! _________________________ Glenn | |||
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Todd this is one video I have watched often especially when referred to by others, in fact at one stage I got you mixed up as being the hunter in it instead of Mjines when a similar discussion was taking place re large bore doubles. I actually have saved the video so can refer to anytime. The video was originally posted at some stage and used as a "we told you so, this is how the large bore doubles put down DG", similar to what you are saying in this particular post in terms of large bores anyway. Now I'm not doubting the effectiveness of large bores or doubles but I cannot see how this video vindicates that to the detriment of medium bores and bolt actions. If anything to me it shows how a medium bore in a bolt gun can be a very effective tool on DG. There is no way that anyone could say that Mikes first shot "dropped that ele to it's knees thereby STOPPING the charge". When watched in slowmo Mikes first shot does not seem to have any effect and Buzz's shot was within in millisecond of Mikes anyway and from the photos Mike posted later both his and Buzz's first shot were almost side by side and just missed the brain. The ele was dropping when Mike 'wasted' his second barrel, again the photos showing the bullet placement was way high on the ele head due to the dropping animal. I know you responded to my assertion, that Mike was then running after Buzz with an empty gun having fired off both barrels, by saying that the video was edited and did not show Mike reloading. Personally I cannot see a lack of continuity in this video where Mike would have reloaded. If the video is continuous then the first chance for Mike to reload was while Buzz was taking another shot at the fleeing ele. My version of the video stops here but I understand Mike got back into action and between him and Buzz they finally got the ele down. What does this video tell us? If Buzz had not been there would Mike's first shot have stopped the charge? I say the video is inconclusive on this. Would Mike have stopped the charge with his second shot if the first didn't, we will never know this. To me it did show that the combined effort of Mike and Buzz did put the ele down for a brief time but in the short space of time it took for Mike and Buzz to run around to the side, the ele had got up and traveled away quite a distance. Had the ele got up and charged instead of running away, where would Mike have been? Up the creek without a paddle and Buzz with 3 or 4 shots left in his 416 bolt gun to stop the charge! Maybe I've got it all wrong or as you said to Jason "You and I must have watched some very different videos if that's what you've come away with". | |||
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@michael458 , a good statement ! The brain shot is a good shot ... if the bullet go in the brain ! A wrong angle of shooting and you have a problem . I had my bad experience ! IMHO the heart shot is the best ! But in this case a big caliber is much more better . The PH is not helpfull in all cases ! The reason why i use a 500 Jeffery for elefant hunting ! | |||
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Sorry, I should have made a point of stating that I was referring to elephant bulls. For me "elephant hunting" means hunting elephant bulls. Cow elephants are a different beast entirely. I will restate: If you watch hunting videos you will quickly come to the realization that elephant bulls are often not fazed by a missed brain shot even with big-bores. Jason "You're not hard-core, unless you live hard-core." _______________________ Hunting in Africa is an adventure. The number of variables involved preclude the possibility of a perfect hunt. Some problems will arise. How you decide to handle them will determine how much you enjoy your hunt. Just tell yourself, "it's all part of the adventure." Remember, if Robert Ruark had gotten upset every time problems with Harry Selby's flat bed truck delayed the safari, Horn of the Hunter would have read like an indictment of Selby. But Ruark rolled with the punches, poured some gin, and enjoyed the adventure. -Jason Brown | |||
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A elefant cow is a elefant ! There are big elefant bulls and small elefant bulls ! Shooting a cow in a herd is very difficult and dangerous ! A reason for a big bore ! | |||
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Good caliber for a DGR bolt gun Now you just need a +.500 double! ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- “A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition” ― Rudyard Kipling | |||
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Appart from two elephants, and dozen or so buffalo, which I have shot with a 416 Weatherby and a 416 Rigby Improved. All the elephants and buffalo I have shot were with a 375 caliber rifle. Use a good bullet, and put it the right place, and he would not know what hit him. In fact, I have given up taking any other rifle when big dangerous game are on teh menu. It does well for everything else too. One rifle. One load. One bullet - one with a whole and one without. In fact, all I do when I make solids is just remove the drill that makes the hollow point. | |||
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