>>> It's your life.<<<

There have been several posts on this thread that deserve laughter. The gist of the argument is that you are needlessly risking your life by hunting with a puny .375 H&H instead of something like a .416 or larger. Really?? Risking your life - as in danger????
Come on this is silly.
If risking your life is a problem why not stay home and minimize the risk all together?
And if risk with large animals is really what you seek why not go to Pamplona or get in the chute on a bull at the local rodeo.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
It is easy to forget that the post WWII era saw the raising of the Iron Curtain and the partition of Germany.

There were few, if any DRs built during the war and very few immediately following it. With no DRs and, once Kynoch quit producing NE ammo, the .375 was almost the only game in town, at least until Winchester produced the .458wm circa 1957. By that time, the pre-war DRs were well worn and there was a dwindling source of ammunition. That is how things remained and why most african DG hunting was done with either the .375H&H or the .458wm. Jack Lott improved the .458 but it wasn't to become a production gun for a few decades. In reality, it wasn't until the late 1980s, when Remington introduced their version of the .416 and CZ began production of rifles in .458Lott that a variety of large bore rifles were again available. Ruger began to produce the wonderful RMR in .416Rigby and .458Lott. Federal began producing ammo for the 470NE and DRs again began to be produced and imported in quantity and in a selection of calibers. Remington, Federal and then Hornady began to produce large bore ammo for the masses.

So the resurgence in large bore rifles for use in africa is no more than about 25 years old.

You are forgetting the Weatherbys(378 in 1953 and 460 in 1957). Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor were shooting big bores(DRs and 416 Rigby) when hunting Africa in the 60's.

You are correct that cheap off the shelf big bores have fueled the craze.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
>>> It's your life.<<<

There have been several posts on this thread that deserve laughter. The gist of the argument is that you are needlessly risking your life by hunting with a puny .375 H&H instead of something like a .416 or larger. Really?? Risking your life - as in danger????
Come on this is silly.
If risking your life is a problem why not stay home and minimize the risk all together?
And if risk with large animals is really what you seek why not go to Pamplona or get in the chute on a bull at the local rodeo.

No,,, because I enjoy hunting Elephant close up and prefer the proper equipment for the task.
However, if I was hunting a bull late in the season in relatively open terrain (west Zimbabwe) I would happily hunt with a 375F in a double.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:

So the resurgence in large bore rifles for use in africa is no more than about 25 years old.

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
The only saving grace it was a Winchester M70, but still I refused to hunt or shoot until my rifle arrived, a 22 inch 458 Winchester, M70 of course. I would not defile myself by using a 375. I lost 3 full days out of 8. And by god, I would have lost the entire 8 before lowering myself to having to use a 375. There are some things I will not Compromise!

Michael

Yet isn't a Model 70 a compromise? Almost as good as a real Mauser -- but not quite.....

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
The only saving grace it was a Winchester M70, but still I refused to hunt or shoot until my rifle arrived, a 22 inch 458 Winchester, M70 of course. I would not defile myself by using a 375. I lost 3 full days out of 8. And by god, I would have lost the entire 8 before lowering myself to having to use a 375. There are some things I will not Compromise!

Michael

Yet isn't a Model 70 a compromise? Almost as good as a real Mauser -- but not quite.....

I gave high praise to the 375 in my post and its my rifle of choice today for DG, but at my age recoil has become a factor thus my choice of the 375 and 9.3x62..

There is however no doubt in my mind that one is better off shooting elephant with a 40 caliber or larger if he can shoot it accurately. I have done most of my DG hunting with the 404, 450-400 and 416 Rem. I have used the 470 and 458 Lott, even a 505 Gibbs IMP, and all things equal, the bigger the bore the better the results, but that just makes since.

Just some food for thought.

quote:

Originally posted by Whitworth:

Yet isn't a Model 70 a compromise? Almost as good as a real Mauser -- but not quite.....

At elephant hunting ranges, is there any difference between the .375 and the 9,3X62?

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
At elephant hunting ranges, is there any difference between the .375 and the 9,3X62?

.009 in

LOLOLOL.....Then the question should be, would you hunt elephant a .366-.375 caliber?

I love the 9,3X62 as much as Michael loathes the .375. Incredible medium bore. However, I understand what LionHunter says about feeling under gunned standing amongst a troupe of elephants with a .375. Shoot the gun you shoot the best but for an elephant, I personally would prefer something a bit bigger. John Taylor loved the .375 but he would be the first one to say that "for a man who is not to sure of himself" a bit larger caliber would be better.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:
"for a man who is not to sure of himself" a bit larger caliber would be better.

Run that one by me one more time Dave. I'm not sure I heard you exactly right!

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I killed my first Ele bull with a .375H&H over 15 years ago. I came home and immediately started looking for a larger caliber rifle. I have killed all my Buff with the .416Rem and all the rest of my Ele with a .458Lott or .458B&M. In two months I will be going for my next bull Ele, with Karl BTW, and using a 500NE, just for the fun of it.

Since I speak from experience and not theory, I suggest nothing smaller than a .416 for Elephant.
If I were you I would look into trading the .375 for a .416 or borrowing something that begins with a 4. Pagosa made a generous offer to loan you a proper rifle for Ele. Please consider it.

I'm firing up the time machine right now, and I'm gonna get Ol' W.D.M., whisk him back here, to discuss this with you...

Todd:

As you may recall, Taylor was a great fan of the .375 but I think that most folks forget, he was talking about the medium bores used along with a large bore for the "big fellas" especially in heavy cover. He also was a fan of the 450/400 and said that in close quarters, the 400 grain bullet thrown but the 450/400 strikes a heavier blow than the .375. He sometimes suggested that for a fellow who was not quite sure of his shooting ability, a somewhat heavier caliber like the 450/400 would be better choice than a .375. I think he was saying that where bullet placement wasn't perfect, the larger bore offered a bit greater margin for error. It wasn't a swipe at the big bore shooters, just a suggestion that bigger bores are more effective when shot placement is not perfect.

This doesn't apply to you. I have seen your shooting videos. I wish I could shoot as well as you.

quote:

LOLOLOL.....Then the question should be, would you hunt elephant a .366-.375 caliber?

If you paid for the hunt and said I had to use a 9.3x62, then I'll happily try it out and let you know the results.

Use the most powerful rifle you can shoot accurately, but don't be satisfied with your current state of recoil tolerence. It can be improved.

I had my first .458WM built back in the 1950's, and frankly I was afraid to shoot a factory load it it. However, I put hundreds of rounds of cast bullet handloads through it, which not only made me completely at home with the rifle, but gradually built up my tolerance, so that when I actually fired a factory load, it was an anticlimax.

A few years later I decided that I needed something more powerful to put the .458 in context, so after consulting with John Buhmiller, I settled on a wildcat .505 based on the .460 Weatherby case, shortened to 2.500" and expanded to take a .505" bullet. My rifle was built around a P-14 Enfield action with a Buhmiller barrel. Eventually, I developed a load with 90 grains of IMR 4064 and a 570 grain Kynoch solid, which produced 2150 fps. in my 22" barrel.

When I killed my first elephant in 1971, it was on a sisal plantation and the bull was one which had lingered past daylight to munch on the succulent sisal leaves. We stalked within 35 yards and I had a clear right side brain shot, which I took. The elephant went down, but clearly I had missed the brain, because he started to get up, so I emptied my .505 into him and his struggles ceased.

If I had been shooting with my .458 I have no doubt that the result would have been the same, and the same is probably true with a .375 H&H (which I also had with me).



However, my second elephant was a different story. We had been hunting elephant exclusively for two weeks, driving along a dry river bed from water hole to water hole and then dismounting and following promising tracks on foot. This involved a lot of hot dry walking and had produced a lot of large elephants with unacceptable ivory.

On the last day, we were driving dejectedly back to camp, when we were stopped by a local who claimed to know where an elephant with very big ivory was. Skeptically the tracker and the gun bearer followed him into the rather dense undergrowth. A sort time later, they returned, grinning from ear to ear.

The elephant did indeed have large ivory, but only one tusk. However, one hundred pounder was better than two fifty pounders in my book, so we started out again, this time with my .458 Krieghoff double rifle.

We found the elephant placidly grazing and got within shooting distance directly in front of him. However, my access to a frontal brain shot was blocked by a substantial tree limb and I wanted to work around him to the side.

At this point something alarmed him, and he moved off into some thick underbrush. By getting down on his hands and knees, the PH could see his feet and the tips of his trunk and the one enormous tusk. He was facing us, testing the air with his trunk, and it seemed obvious that he was in a foul mood, probably as the result of his recently broken off left tusk, in the root of which the nerve was still festering.

Eventually he moved away, and we followed carefully. We came to a small clearing, and suddenly, there he was, about fifty yards away, behind a large bush, which concealed all of his body except his head, which was tilted back, while he reached up with his trunk for a morsel.

Again I tried for a brain shot, and again, although the elephant went down at the shot, he struggled to get up. I could see him only indistinctly because of the undergrowth, but I continued to shoot until his struggles ceased.

The situation was complicated by the young bull, or askari, who accompanied him, who went into a paroxysm of rage at the first shot, and surely would have charged us, had been able to locate our position.

If I had it to do over again, I certainly would have used my .505 on the second elephant. I did use it on the other two elephant I later shot, both behind the ear brain shots and one shot kills. I felt undergunned with the .458 and I would certainly have felt even more undergunned with my .375.



The tusk actually weighed 94 pounds, with a very big nerve.

Killing an elephant in the open, where you have a clear shot is one thing. Doing the same in heavy cover is quite another, and there is no way of telling in advance which situation you will find yourself in.

^ Very cool stuff!

xausa-

Thanks for your contribution to the discussion and your personal evaluation of large bores for Ele v. the .375, often referred to as a "rat gun". And your final paragraph sums it up perfectly, BTW.

By the looks of those photos, this was some time ago. Care to identify the time and place of the second pic?

Thanks for sharing and keep well.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:
Use the most powerful rifle you can shoot accurately, but don't be satisfied with your current state of recoil tolerence. It can be improved.

BINGO!!! We have a winner!! What I've been trying to say all along, simply and succinctly summed up!

Pick the rifle you WANT to shoot and learn to handle it through regular and plentiful practice. For example, I've had possession of my new VC 500NE now for about 2 months. It has about 350 rounds down range at this time. By the time I take it to Zim this December, it will have upwards of 1,000 rounds fired. Probably closer to 1,200. Practice, practice, practice and recoil becomes less and less of an issue.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
By the looks of those photos, this was some time ago. Care to identify the time and place of the second pic?

Both photos were taken on a five week safari in Kenya in 1971, one at the very beginning and the other at the very end. The second elephant was taken close to the Tana River in north-eastern Kenya, close to the Somali border.

The other highlight of the trip was a Rowland Ward Record Book black rhino.

I consider myself immensely fortunate to have had that experience in Kenya with Ker, Downey and Selby and their flawless safari organization, not to mention bellying up to the bar in the New Stanley Hotel with some of the legends of the game.

It was also immensely gratifying to hunt in Africa with a cartridge I designed and developed myself and proved the value of to my own satisfaction. Moreover, it was with a rifle built to my specifications, which proved itself in at least one tight situation to be all I could wish for in the way of pointing and handling.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
By the looks of those photos, this was some time ago. Care to identify the time and place of the second pic?

Both photos were taken on a five week safari in Kenya in 1971, one at the very beginning and the other at the very end. The second elephant was taken close to the Tana River in north-eastern Kenya, close to the Somali border.

The other highlight of the trip was a Rowland Ward Record Book black rhino.

I consider myself immensely fortunate to have had that experience in Kenya with Ker, Downey and Selby and their flawless safari organization, not to mention bellying up to the bar in the New Stanley Hotel with some of the legends of the game.

It was also immensely gratifying to hunt in Africa with a cartridge I designed and developed myself and proved the value of to my own satisfaction. Moreover, it was with a rifle built to my specifications, which proved itself in at least one tight situation to be all I could wish for in the way of pointing and handling.

Fortunate indeed!! Good stuff and thank you for contributing!

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
By the looks of those photos, this was some time ago. Care to identify the time and place of the second pic?

Both photos were taken on a five week safari in Kenya in 1971, one at the very beginning and the other at the very end. The second elephant was taken close to the Tana River in north-eastern Kenya, close to the Somali border.

The other highlight of the trip was a Rowland Ward Record Book black rhino.

I consider myself immensely fortunate to have had that experience in Kenya with Ker, Downey and Selby and their flawless safari organization, not to mention bellying up to the bar in the New Stanley Hotel with some of the legends of the game.

It was also immensely gratifying to hunt in Africa with a cartridge I designed and developed myself and proved the value of to my own satisfaction. Moreover, it was with a rifle built to my specifications, which proved itself in at least one tight situation to be all I could wish for in the way of pointing and handling.

That is very interesting; that is a wild cat? Was it ever built in any other rifles?

What else can you tell us about the cartridge, other hunts with it etc?

Hope you don't mind me asking.



Jim.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
By the looks of those photos, this was some time ago. Care to identify the time and place of the second pic?

The second elephant was taken close to the Tana River in north-eastern Kenya, close to the Somali border.
----------------------------

I consider myself immensely fortunate to have had that experience in Kenya with Ker, Downey and Selby and their flawless safari organization, not to mention bellying up to the bar in the New Stanley Hotel with some of the legends of the game.

Let me get this straight, you were hunting Pondoro's old hunting grounds, hanging with modern day legends and shooting huge elephant and rhino?!


How could it get better than that?

Is there anybody here that has used the .378Wea on elephants?.

Can I presume if Saeeds 375/404 will do it all then the Wea with an added 100 ft/sec more can do just about the same?.

I still want to believe a heavy solid rhino bullet 380grain @ 2600 ft/sec will penetrate deep if not exit with a side headshot on elephant?.

quote:

Originally posted by jens poulsen:
Is there anybody here that has used the .378Wea on elephants?.

Can I presume if Saeeds 375/404 will do it all then the Wea with an added 100 ft/sec more can do just about the same?.

I believe Saeed loads his 375/404 down a bit below max. Maybe a 300gr @2700fps IIRC.

Xausa, I love your 'vintage' photographs and great write-ups!

And love the 505 caliber too, in a Gibbs! Go Big or Go Home!

xausa,
That is some really cool stuff from 42 years ago, why you must have been at least 18 by then, so you are about 60 years old or older now?

Beyond the elephant and rhino and famous PH's and the hunting grounds long gone, there is also the matter of John Buhmiller, "Oom Johnnie" to those far south of Kenya.

Getting him in on your wildcat rifle is a high recommendation of your judgement, even when you were such a young kid.

Was it a straight-cased, 2.5"-long .505/460 Wby cat, or did it have some shoulder?

John Buhmiller pioneered a lot of things, and was among the first to push a cup-point and an FN solid back in the 1950's.
Did he make your .505-caliber elephant bullets for you?

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
xausa,
That is some really cool stuff from 42 years ago, why you must have been at least 18 by then, so you are about 60 years old or older now?

Actually, I was born in 1939, and in 1971 I had an undergraduate degree, a law degree, three years in the Marine Corps and a tour in Vietnam behind me.

This is my original drawing of my .505 SRE, made in 1968. I originally evisioned a straight case, like a scaled up .458 WM, but then decided on a slight shoulder to improve feed. (SRE stands for "Short Range Express", and there was also a .416 MRE and a .375 LRE, and finally a .577 VSRE, all of which were built and tested.)



When I originally designed the cartridge, it was a homage to Hemingway's description of the "short, ugly, shockingly big-bored .505 Gibbs", in "The Short Happy Life of Francis Macomber". John Buhmiller could furnish a barrel in that caliber and Keith Francis made the reamer. However, after the rifle was built I was dismayed to discover that the .505 Gibbs is a propriatary cartridge and therefore Kynoch could not sell components, so I was left with the choice of using Barnes bullets, which at that time were made with copper tubing for jackets, or modifying bullets for the .500 Nitro Express, which were available. As John Buhmiller said, "A Barnes solid makes a good soft point," so I opted for the steel jacketed Kynoch bullet, which only had to be slightly altered to use in the ,505" barrel.

In addition to the rhino and three elephants, I also took five Cape buffalo with the same rifle.

quote:

Originally posted by xausa:

"short, ugly, shockingly big-bored ..."

Hey, how did you know what I look like?

Love my 505 Gibbs; just need a 577NE big-brother

xausa,

Must say that a ".416 MRE" made me first think of "Meal Ready to Eat" rather than "Medium Range Express."
And "577 VSRE" suggested "Vancomycin Semi-Resistant Enterococcus" rather than "Very Short Range Express."

But hey, now that I know what they mean, I really like that nomenclature system for your wildcats.
You were certainly ahead of your time with the .585/"577" wildcat.
Beat Art Alphin and Ross Seyfried to it, eh?
Had John Buhmiller done anything in that caliber by the 1970's?

Thanks for that drawing!
It is good that you had the time for safari amongst all of those accomplishments. I will try not to hold against you the part about a law degree.

I understand your bullet situation back then.
Squeezing a .510 Kynoch FMJ down to .505 was not much of a stretch, worked well.

We here thrive on stuff like your .505 SRE cartridge drawing. If you ever get a chance to post some of your other wildcat drawings,
I am sure I speak for many in saying it would be greatly appreciated.

.505 SRE: Short Range Express
.416 MRE: Medium Range Express
.375 LRE: Long Range Express
577 VSRE: Very Short Range Express

quote:

Originally posted by RIP:
xausa,

Must say that a ".416 MRE" made me first think of "Meal Ready to Eat" rather than Medium Range Express....We here thrive on stuff like your .505 SRE cartridge drawing.

MRE's were a thing of the future in 1965, when I was with the III MAF in Vietnam. We subsisted on C Rations, which some suspected were left over from World War II.

Where, exactly, is "we here"? I live about five miles from Kentucky, just south of Murray, in Henry County, Tennessee.

RIP makes me think of Requiescat in pace, by the way. No offence![/QUOTE][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

xausa,

You can delete the "dreaded perseverated" posts above by opening the edit function and clicking on the delete button for each supernumary post.

I spend most of my time, lately, within a 100-mile radius of Owensboro, KY, and you are just outside that.
I was born on the Tennessee border of Western KY, and my relatives go back to 1790 KY on both sides of the family, settled in Southwestern KY before statehood.

I have been to your neck of the woods frequently to visit Dixie Gunworks, Drake and Associates, and Davy Crockett's Mother's grave, at his last Tennessee home, Kentucky Lake/Land Between the Lakes, etc.
Nice place to retire.

I'll send you a PM.
RIP:
Ron In Person
Riflecrank Internationale Permanente
Requiescat In Pacem

Here's the original drawing for the .577 VSRE, with the date 5-16-81 in the corner. Cases made from .577NE brass by turning off the rim and forming a .603" rebated rim to allow fitting to a P-14 Enfield action.

xausa,

Is that the chamber reamer minimums or the cartridge maximums with an indication of throating?
Kind of a hybrid drawing?

I have long resisted doing a .585-caliber wildcat as just too much of a good thing,
but I do have 60 pieces of .585 Nyati basic brass from Bertram just for giggles.
It is straight cylinder with non-rebated rim, and is about 3.25" long.
Surely from 577 NE 3-1/4" basic made as rimless.

Now you got me wanting to draw up a reamer and a cartridge.
We do now have the MRC PH action that will handle the Gibbs (or larger) rim and 4.000" COL.


As I was, regarding the .577 VSRE:

Venturified shoulder like a Weatherby.
Could it be the ".577 Venturi Short Range Express" then?
Surely that cartridge is capable of more than just "very" short range work.
This family of classic-caliber wildcats deserves a thread of its own.
Or a book with the safari stories thrown in for sales appeal.

The "Safari Ranger Express" line of cartridges.

The best I can remember, it's the minimum reamer dimensions. There were three platforms made up for that cartridge, two P-14 Enfields and a post-64 Model 70 with a modified single stack Weatherby .460 magazine. That rifle has a McMillan stock and weighs about 13 pounds. It could actually be used to hunt with.

The recoil is really just a big irresistable push and I have developed a kind of two-step which I use to keep my legs from getting tangled up as I give with the push.

The .505 only weighs 8 3/4 pounds and develops about 100 ft/lbs of free recoil, but I have never noticed it when shooting at game.

This is my family of wildcats, starting on the left with the .577 and ending on the right with what I call the .450 C&W, a sort of rimmed .450 Watts, using blown out .375 H&H Flanged brass. I actually had a double rifle built around that cartridge by Krieghoff years before they developed the .500/.416, but they weren't interested.



Here are a few more pictures of African game taken with the .505 SRE.

Mighty IMPRESSIVE. Especially the black rhino, the true 5th of the Big Five.
Also impressive is how slim the barrel of the .505 SRE is.
No wonder it was so light and handy, 8-3/4 lbs.
More than enough gun.

Dave,
I have never been able to tell any difference at in the the .375 H&H and 9.3x62 other than the 9.3x62 does the same thing with considerably less recoil..Neither caliber is whats referred to as a "stopping rifle" but both have a tremendous amount of penetration and it makes little difference what size hole one puts in a elephants brain, most holes work very well there. I have used both extensively on buffalo and on plainsgame, and to a lesser degree on other DG. where they work just fine, but elephant is another consideration and I would actually much prefer a .416 or 404.

BUT, in a charge situation, make no mistake the biggest gun you can shoot accurate is the way to go IMO.

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:

BUT, in a charge situation, make no mistake the biggest gun you can shoot accurate is the way to go IMO.

+1

Thank you for the fantastic pictures especially the rhino.

quote:

You are forgetting the Weatherbys(378 in 1953 and 460 in 1957). Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor were shooting big bores(DRs and 416 Rigby) when hunting Africa in the 60's.

You are correct that cheap off the shelf big bores have fueled the craze.


Jason

Well, I resemble that comment.

Without the resurgeance in 416 bullets and brass, or the normal-priced production rifles of Ruger and and then CZ in the 1990's, I might still be using smaller bores.