quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Appart from two elephants, and dozen or so buffalo, which I have shot with a 416 Weatherby and a 416 Rigby Improved.

All the elephants and buffalo I have shot were with a 375 caliber rifle.

Use a good bullet, and put it the right place, and he would not know what hit him.

In fact, I have given up taking any other rifle when big dangerous game are on teh menu.

It does well for everything else too.

One rifle.
One load.
One bullet - one with a whole and one without.

In fact, all I do when I make solids is just remove the drill that makes the hollow point.

The Walterhog meplat is too small to work well as a solid in elephant.
Surely besides omitting the hole, you at least truncate the point a bit to widen the meplat?

Here (on left side) is the Walterhog 300-grain .375 hollow point soft next to some "Walterhogged" FN solids of larger caliber and ample meplat:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
So now we hear from those who have admittedly NEVER killed an Ele and those whose vast Ele experience is based upon that "one" Ele they killed with a rat gun

I believe you and I have the same amount of experience using the 375 on elephant bulls(one each). I understand that you have moved on to the big bores and gained some experience with them, but it is my opinion that no matter how many elephant you shoot with a 458 none of that experience translates to shooting elephant with a 375.

I have come to believe that a lot of the big bore guys try to extrapolate their experience regarding the effectiveness of bigbores into the effectiveness(or lack of effectiveness) of the 375. In doing this it is easy to come to the conclusion that, "it took 4 shots to kill it with a .500, thank God I wasn't using a puny little .375 it would have escaped wounded!"

The problem with this type of thinking is that it is the placement of the first shot that is most critical, and the shootability of the 375 gives it a distinct advantage in placement of that first shot.

Saeed's videos are proof of that.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Jason,

You and I must have watched some very different videos if that's what you've come away with.

I'm not sure if the charge Mike Jines and Buzz Charlton took from that ele cow is still posted here on AR or not. If not, it's on Buzz's "The Essence of Elephant Hunting" DVD. Very specifically, Mike was shooting a 500NE while Buzz was shooting a 416 Rigby. All three shots, at VERY CLOSE RANGE missed the brain but the first strike from Mikes 500NE dropped that ele to it's knees, thereby STOPPING the charge. This allowed them to safely move off and as the cow got up and attempted to flee, Buzz put in several additional shots and finished it off.

The very first video I posted on AR was of a tuskless cow taken with my 500NE with a frontal brain shot. She moved just as I pulled the trigger, resulting in the bullet hitting about 3" low and 3" to the left. She immediately sat on her haunches and pivoted to fall on her side whereby I hit her again with a heart shot. Point being that even though I missed the brain on that first shot, it knocked off her feet.

Sorry, I should have made a point of stating that I was referring to elephant bulls. For me "elephant hunting" means hunting elephant bulls. Cow elephants are a different beast entirely.

I will restate: If you watch hunting videos you will quickly come to the realization that elephant bulls are often not fazed by a missed brain shot even with big-bores.

OK, we can put the elephant cows aside and let's even put aside the elephant hunting videos. My first elephant hunt was for a bull, not a cow. Sorry but that's before I began filming my hunts. I shot the bull with my 500NE. Very close miss to the brain. The first shot dropped the bull right onto it's face, where it then proceeded to roll over on it's side. While we were attempting to chase the other members of the herd away, my bull began attempting to regain it's feet. Two more rounds into the chest finished the deal for good.

Point being that cows and movies aside, my big bore rifle missed the brain, but was enough to put the bull down for a good 3 or 4 minutes before we realized it needed additional attention.

The big bore CNS miss vs 375 CNS miss as you've stated is oversimplified Jason. Simply, a direct hit to the brain with either will settle the matter immediately. But hitting that brain every time is tough and I'll admit now in 4 attempts, I haven't gotten it done "just right" Came very close on my third attempt but still needed a follow up shot. But I think what can be legitimately stated in terms of the big bore rifles in the case of the close CNS miss on elephant is that up to a point, the larger the bore, the further the miss can be and still achieve that temporary knock down STOP of the animal.

Eagle,

You and I have debated that Jines and Buzz clip so many times in the past that I just don't care to go over it again. From what I remember, each time we've taken it on, in the end, you've seen it my way, only for it to pop up again and we start it all over again. So be it. But clearly, immediately after Mike's first shot, the ele bagan to fall. Not much before Buzz's shot, but it was on the way down.

But if you want to disregard that one, how about mine? The first video I ever posted on AR as described above. On that one, I'm the only guy shooting. A frontal brain shot that missed 3" low and 3" left. Upon receiving the shot, she fell to her butt, rotated and then to her side. Irrefutable evidence of a big bore rifle missing the brain on an elephant and still knocking the animal off it's feet.

I'll be more than happy to review and contemplate your first hand evidence of the contrary however.

The problem with this type of thinking is that it is the placement of the first shot that is most critical, and the shootability of the 375 gives it a distinct advantage in placement of that first shot.

Saeed's videos are proof of that.[/QUOTE]

I dont have problems to shoot accurate with my 460WM or my 500 Jeffery . Where is the advantage of the 375 H&H ?

Elefant hunting is today not a necessity ! It's a hobby for hunters and a ( questionable ! ) enjoyment . If there is a problem with the needed equipment , let it be . With us or without us , no change for the dark future of the elefant .

All this thread's are a discussion between big bore shooters and recoil-shy hunters !

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Jason,

You and I must have watched some very different videos if that's what you've come away with.

I'm not sure if the charge Mike Jines and Buzz Charlton took from that ele cow is still posted here on AR or not. If not, it's on Buzz's "The Essence of Elephant Hunting" DVD. Very specifically, Mike was shooting a 500NE while Buzz was shooting a 416 Rigby. All three shots, at VERY CLOSE RANGE missed the brain but the first strike from Mikes 500NE dropped that ele to it's knees, thereby STOPPING the charge. This allowed them to safely move off and as the cow got up and attempted to flee, Buzz put in several additional shots and finished it off.

The very first video I posted on AR was of a tuskless cow taken with my 500NE with a frontal brain shot. She moved just as I pulled the trigger, resulting in the bullet hitting about 3" low and 3" to the left. She immediately sat on her haunches and pivoted to fall on her side whereby I hit her again with a heart shot. Point being that even though I missed the brain on that first shot, it knocked off her feet.

Sorry, I should have made a point of stating that I was referring to elephant bulls. For me "elephant hunting" means hunting elephant bulls. Cow elephants are a different beast entirely.

I will restate: If you watch hunting videos you will quickly come to the realization that elephant bulls are often not fazed by a missed brain shot even with big-bores.

OK, we can put the elephant cows aside and let's even put aside the elephant hunting videos. My first elephant hunt was for a bull, not a cow. Sorry but that's before I began filming my hunts. I shot the bull with my 500NE. Very close miss to the brain. The first shot dropped the bull right onto it's face, where it then proceeded to roll over on it's side. While we were attempting to chase the other members of the herd away, my bull began attempting to regain it's feet. Two more rounds into the chest finished the deal for good.

Point being that cows and movies aside, my big bore rifle missed the brain, but was enough to put the bull down for a good 3 or 4 minutes before we realized it needed additional attention.

The big bore CNS miss vs 375 CNS miss as you've stated is oversimplified Jason. Simply, a direct hit to the brain with either will settle the matter immediately. But hitting that brain every time is tough and I'll admit now in 4 attempts, I haven't gotten it done "just right" Came very close on my third attempt but still needed a follow up shot. But I think what can be legitimately stated in terms of the big bore rifles in the case of the close CNS miss on elephant is that up to a point, the larger the bore, the further the miss can be and still achieve that temporary knock down STOP of the animal.

Eagle,

You and I have debated that Jines and Buzz clip so many times in the past that I just don't care to go over it again. From what I remember, each time we've taken it on, in the end, you've seen it my way, only for it to pop up again and we start it all over again. So be it. But clearly, immediately after Mike's first shot, the ele bagan to fall. Not much before Buzz's shot, but it was on the way down.

But if you want to disregard that one, how about mine? The first video I ever posted on AR as described above. On that one, I'm the only guy shooting. A frontal brain shot that missed 3" low and 3" left. Upon receiving the shot, she fell to her butt, rotated and then to her side. Irrefutable evidence of a big bore rifle missing the brain on an elephant and still knocking the animal off it's feet.

I'll be more than happy to review and contemplate your first hand evidence of the contrary however.

Todd and Jason,

One of the problems that I see is that we say that "the brain was missed but it knocked the elephant down" or "the brain was hit because it went down tail first" with out any direct evidence that the brain was in fact hit or missed. Most of the time this determination is made by what the elephant does on receipt of the bullet, not on detailed dissection of the head and with a description of what portion and how much brain tissue was destroyed. A point in fact is that if your bullet is placed a little too low and under the brain and it hits spinal column, the elephant will act just like brain shot elephant. Also I wonder if a close hit that misses the brain will cause an elephant to react differently depending on which part of the brain it passes. I hit a very big bull too high on a frontal shot that was determined through dissection to have traveled 1 1/2" over the top of the brain with a 470. That elephant wasn't even knocked down. A quick follow up lung shot by the PH at my direction saved us from having a lost elephant.

I'm wondering how any of you have done such a dissection to verify your suspicions on what the bullet actually hit. If you have never done a head dissection let me tell you it is a hell of a job and takes a lot of time and effort. I have done several so have some experience at it. To do the job properly you need to take the head back to camp and have it sawed down the middle from top to bottom. Then you can remove the brain in two halves and see if the brain tissue is actually damaged and if the damage was caused by a close miss (concussion) or by direct bullet caused trauma. Then after the skull is cleaned of muscle, skin and other tissues you can see the bullets trajectory through the head.

By far easiest way is to have the head cleaned at camp and track the bullets path through the head bones. Saw it down the middle and you can also see if it passed through the brain cavity. This type of cleaning takes a lot of time and you will probably be home by the time it is done.

Here are a couple of things that I have observed from such dissections.

In one case a large cow was hit about 3" right of center on a frontal shot. The cow went down but was moving her front and rear legs. Another finisher shot to the head and the death kick was evident. The bullet didn't kill the cow but incapacitated it allowing the follow up shot. Dissection revealed that the bullet passed through the left lobe of the brain about 2" into the brain. What I learned is that you can hit the brain on a frontal shot and not get an instantaneous kill. All parts of the brain are not created equally. In another case, a very large cow was hit behind the ear with the bullet raking forward and across the head. Dissection showed that the Woodleigh Hydro from the 470 went through the rear portion of the brain from lower right rear quadrant to the forward central left quadrant. When hit the cow gave the typical brain shot reaction except for the death kick. Around 15 minutes after the cow was knocked down we heard her moaning and when we got back to her we noticed that she was moving her right front leg. Of course she was immediately given a finishing shot. Something that we should have done immediately. Even a central hit with a large bore rifle through the most vulnerable portion of the brain may not lead to instantaneous death.

I suspect that this hitting the brain but not killing the animal immediately is more common than we have thought.


465H&H

I had a very long (multiple night over sundowners and dinner) running discussion with Ivan Carter on this subject.

The gist of his point was that he had a client who had vastly increased his "brain shot" success by moving to a big bore rifle.

I told him I didn't think that the big bore was the cause of the success.

First off, most fellows who decide to pursue elephant on a regular basis end up buying a big bore gun, whether a .458 bolt gun or a double of some sort. The "average" guy shooting elephant with a .375 is either a first timer or shooting his only elephant (obviously, there are exceptions like Saeed...)

So, the increased likelihood of connecting on a brain shot is not the extra 0.083 or so of bullet diameter- in the greater scheme of things that is not going to make any practical difference.

Penetration may be said to definitely be in favor of the bigger guns, but then again, how much do you really need? Enough to get to the brain. I don't see anyone saying the .375 doesn't have enough penetration for a brain shot, although I will concede that most of the older .375 solids did not have a very enviable reputation for tracking straight in big bulls. Now with North Forks, the Trophy Bonded solids, CEB, etc. I don't think you are doing yourself a disservice there now.

I think we can all agree that someone who "has seen the elephant" before is likely to be calmer and more accurate a shot when the chips are down. They also have somewhat a better idea of elephant anatomy as far as where to shoot old Jumbo.

Once Ivan and I got on the same page, namely, that the bigger guns have a capability of causing a concussion to an elephant, causing it to drop to a "marginal" shot, and allowing a reasonably unhurried insurance shot to actually kill the bull, I think I was forced to agree that the bigger guns will likely give one more margin for error.

I think that the .375 gets a bit of a bum rap as far as effectiveness on elephant because of the above factors, and that the effectiveness of the bigger bores is also overstated a bit because of this as well. However, for my hunt I am bringing a .416 and a .470, mainly for the mystique of hunting elephant with a big bore up close.

However, if it was hunt elephant with a .375, or not hunt elephant, its a no brainer... I'd be there with the "mouse gun."

pevtsovy,
First congrats on your 1st elephant hunt. Well maybe congrats. Elephant hunting will ruin you for anything else. There is just nothing like it.
Now to cartridges , You will be just fine with your 375. Experience wise I have used the 375, 450/400, 458 lott and 577 N.E. The bottom line is that shot well they all work! The thing going for the 375 is that you can afford to shoot it a lot and that is where the action is. If you will study the anatomy and shoot until you can make quick hits on a 6 " circle 100 percent of the time out to 50 yrds you are golden!
Another advantage of the 375 that is seldom mentioned is that if you practice you can shoot multiple shots very quickly be cause the recoil is not so severe that you are shifted out of position with each shot. That speed of a 2nd and 3rd shot can be important.
Best of luck!

465H&H-

Thanks for providing an interesting perspective.

While it is a known fact that a human brain can be punctured with a through and through penetrating wound and the victim still survive, albeit with varying degrees of disability, I never considered this on an Ele. Don't know why not, it just never crossed my mind (no pun intended). And while I am not comparing the complexity of the human brain to that of an Ele, it does stand to reason that an Ele brain could, possibly, sustain a penetrating wound without evidencing a terminal effect. The variables are substantial but the possibility certainly exists and I believe a small caliber, such as the .375, makes this more likely than does a large bore caliber. I believe this is evidence that a larger projectile and its' resulting larger path will unquestionably cause more trauma to the brain or the area immediately surrounding the brain.

And you are absolutely correct in that the only way this can be determined is by a full necropsy of the animals brain, a not unsubstantial undertaking requiring time, some skill and a knowledge of the anatomy of the Ele head, neck and spine.

Last year PH Alan Shearing called a brain shot on my ration Ele who went down to a frontal .458B&M 450gr bullet at 15 yards in the bush. I, however, saw through my scope the Ele lift its' head after the CNS collapse in the dirt. I was unable to get in a quick follow-up insurance shot as the herd immediately came to her aid. As we backed off and waited for the dramatics, I told Al that I felt the shot must have passed under the brain and struck the spinal cord, resulting in the classic CNS collapse. She never made a sound, the herd pushed off in short order and as we moved up I paid the insurance. I would have conducted an exam but all parts of a ration quota must go immediately to the government camp. We tried to recover the skull from the game scout camp but were unsuccessful.

I encourage all Ele hunters who attempt the frontal brain shot to try your damnedest to conduct a dissection of the skull and an examination of the brain and neck spinal column. A cleaning rod makes a wonderful probe of bullet path but a leg of a shooting stick or a small branch will work as well, depending on the caliber of the stick!

A most thought provoking post.

quote:

Originally posted by els:
pevtsovy,
First congrats on your 1st elephant hunt. Well maybe congrats. Elephant hunting will ruin you for anything else. There is just nothing like it.
Now to cartridges , You will be just fine with your 375. Experience wise I have used the 375, 450/400, 458 lott and 577 N.E. The bottom line is that shot well they all work! The thing going for the 375 is that you can afford to shoot it a lot and that is where the action is. If you will study the anatomy and shoot until you can make quick hits on a 6 " circle 100 percent of the time out to 50 yrds you are golden! Another advantage of the 375 that is seldom mentioned is that if you practice you can shoot multiple shots very quickly be cause the recoil is not so severe that you are shifted out of position with each shot. That speed of a 2nd and 3rd shot can be important.
Best of luck!

Dang, I really HATE to have to continue posting that video of mine where I shoot the ele with a frontal, using the 500NE, then hit her again while she is still dropping with a heart shot from the other barrel. This business of recovery time is a load a crap mostly. I'll guarantee you that I can place a second, well aimed 500NE round down range from my double rifle faster than you can fire a second well aimed 375 from a bolt gun. I've got the video to prove it. I can also post several videos where I place a second, well aimed shot from my 577NE down range demonstrating that recovery time is a non issue. I've yet to post the video of my elephant hunt from this past October using the 577NE. I missed the first shot just a bit high, she briskly wheeled around to run and I nailed her with the second shot into the brain in less than 1 second. A 577NE. If you want, I'll post the video. You can time the second shot yourself. Been there, done that. Recovery time was not an issue.

It is also a misnomer that a 375 can be shot more often than a large bore rifle. I've had my new 500NE now for about 11 weeks. I didn't shoot it this week, but as of last Sunday, while working up loads for it, I've recorded 358 rounds through the rifle in 10 weeks. Do you shoot your 375 that often.

Damn but this get's old arguing the same thing over and over. The fact is that some people, regardless of the regulations, are only interested in mastering the absolute minimum caliber allowed for DG. Others simply enjoy shooting big bore rifles. Yes, some people buy and own big bores without learning how to shoot them and are afraid of them. But to suggest on this forum, that NO ONE who owns big bore rifles are fully capable of using them correctly is folly.

Sorry for the rant but it just gets old. "One planet, one rifle. Mr. Holland's 375". What a boring mantra. I'd rather stay home!

I wish Taylor asked the elephants when he formulated his TKO.

In some books I have read, it is claimed that you get a sort of straight line bonus if you miss the brain of an elephant and still knock him down.

I cannot remember the exact numbers, but it went like this.

0.600 6 inches
0.500 5 inches and so on.

Sounds almost as bad as one of my favourite old timers, Elmer Keith. When he claimed that the 30-06 is no good for deer.

Her said he shot one with a 30-06, and broke its spine.

The deer still ran off

TKO Factor Name Mass (gr) Velocity (fps) Bullet Diameter (in)
1074.9 .950 JDJ 3600 2200 0.950
19.6 .308 Winchester 168 2650 0.308
147 .50 BMG 660 3050 0.510
4.72 .380 ACP 95 980 0.355
6.20 .38 Special 158 770 0.357
8.56 .357 Sig 125 1350 0.355
24.9 .300 Winchester Magnum 180 3146 0.308
13.3 7.62 Soviet 123 2420 0.312
4.64 5.45x39mm 49 3000 0.221
35.5 .338 Lapua Magnum 250 2940 0.338
20.8 7.62×54mmR 181 2580 0.312
70.3 .458 Winchester Magnum 500 2150 0.458
42.9 .500 S&W Magnum 500 1200 0.500
36.5 .45-70 450 1250 0.458
37.7 .500 Linebaugh 440 1200 0.510
35.2 .475 Linebaugh 370 1400 0.475
29.8 .480 Ruger 325 1350 0.475
41.0 .375 H&H 300 2550 0.375
34.7 .405 Winchester 300 2000 0.4115
30.2 .454 Casull 260 1800 0.452
22.8 .38-55 Winchester 255 1650 0.3775
19.9 .44 Magnum 240 1350 0.429
12.3 .45 ACP 230 830 0.452
21.1 .35 Remington 200 2100 0.358
20.8 .30-06 Springfield 170 2850 0.308
10.4 .40 S&W 165 1080 0.400
11.3 .357 Magnum 158 1400 0.357
9.2 .327 Magnum 115 1800 0.312
14.9 .30-30 Winchester 150 2250 0.308
7.31 9mm Parabellum 115 1250 0.355
8.70 .243 Winchester 85 2950 0.240
2.83 .32 ACP 71 900 0.309
5.78 .223 Remington 55 3300 0.224
1.33 .25 ACP 50 750 0.251
1.33 .22LR 30 1400 0.222

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

Eagle,

You and I have debated that Jines and Buzz clip so many times in the past that I just don't care to go over it again. From what I remember, each time we've taken it on, in the end, you've seen it my way, only for it to pop up again and we start it all over again. So be it. But clearly, immediately after Mike's first shot, the ele bagan to fall. Not much before Buzz's shot, but it was on the way down.

But if you want to disregard that one, how about mine? The first video I ever posted on AR as described above. On that one, I'm the only guy shooting. A frontal brain shot that missed 3" low and 3" left. Upon receiving the shot, she fell to her butt, rotated and then to her side. Irrefutable evidence of a big bore rifle missing the brain on an elephant and still knocking the animal off it's feet.

I'll be more than happy to review and contemplate your first hand evidence of the contrary however.

Todd yes we have debated this a few times as the question of the effectiveness of big bores versus medium bores and/or doubles versus bolts keeps on arising. In this post and all others where I have taken part I have never decried the effectiveness of big bores or doubles but I do defend the use of mediums and bolts as history, both old and modern, has given us plenty of examples of this with quite famous hunters and PH's very effectively using them on DG from elephant down. So I do agree with you on the effectiveness of big bores and doubles, and as always qualified by 'in the right hands', the same qualification for mediums and bolts. I don't use a 375 so have no vested interest in promoting one as such.

As to Mikes video I just cannot agree with you that this particular video proves it was his first shot that counted, or brought the elephant to its knees as you say, as Buzz's shot was so close (bang bang) there was no time to see any reaction from the elephant. I just cannot read that into that video, no matter how many times I watch it even in slow motion.
Last time we debated this you said Mike did not have an empty gun as he had reloaded, I still hold the view his gun was empty when Buzz called him to follow around to the side. You are obviously seeing something quite different to me in the continuity of that video. i suppose only Mike can clear that up, in the meantime we will just have to agree to differ.

As to your video I don't think I have seen it, must search and watch. As I have posted before, I am sure there are a tonne of videos that show animals dropping to the shot from big bores just as there are from mediums. Have a look at the only movie I got of my shot on a buffalo, was a chest shot with a solid and it collapsed immediately, I lost it in the recoil but it did not even kick when down, was absolutely out for the count. That was a bolt action 404. Then we look at one of Sullivan's shots at close range on a buffalo standing out in the open, took off at the first shot and only dropped after another deliberate second shot after it had gone 20 -30 yards. What with? a double 600. What do I take from this - the big bore double is useless? Of course not, it comes down to shot placement with any calibre above anything else.

I know it can't happen but I wonder what it would be like on this forum if old WDM Bell were to be posting. I don't think anyone here would ever be qualified to answer him.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

I can also post several videos where I place a second, well aimed shot from my 577NE down range ...

I've yet to post the video of my elephant hunt from this past October using the 577NE....If you want, I'll post the video.

Thanks Todd, yes, please post those 577NE videos, they sound fun!

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
The fact is that some people, regardless of the regulations, are only interested in mastering the absolute minimum caliber allowed for DG. Others simply enjoy shooting big bore rifles. Yes, some people buy and own big bores without learning how to shoot them and are afraid of them. But to suggest on this forum, that NO ONE who owns big bore rifles are fully capable of using them correctly is folly.

I think that gets to the heart of the matter: we choose based on emotion and rationalize our decisions.

And as far as "no one" being able to shoot a big bore, we know that that can't really be true. But watching then hunting videos seems to prove otherwise.

And we had someone on this thread state that he was 0 for 4 on brain shots with bigbores.

Yeah guys, keep telling yourselves how effective you are with those bigbores.....



Just don't watch Cal's video. You know the one where he required almost a pound of lead to kill a buffalo(6 shots from a 600NE).

For further confusion read the old African Hunter article "Five With Six". That is five elephants at one event with six .30/06 cartridges.

I recall it was Bruce Watson who went through his PH career not aware his .375 H&H was inadequate. At last look Rex Hoets is attempting the same experience. Bullet placement and terminal ballistics are the highest priorities.

quote:

Originally posted by PD999:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

I can also post several videos where I place a second, well aimed shot from my 577NE down range ...

I've yet to post the video of my elephant hunt from this past October using the 577NE....If you want, I'll post the video.

Thanks Todd, yes, please post those 577NE videos, they sound fun!

PD999,

I'll see about getting that 577 hunt for the ele this past October loaded into YouTube. It takes a few hours for some reason with my equipment and connection speed. The reason I haven't posted it yet is because it's just a kill shot without much of a hunt to go along with it. The "Buffalo in the Jesse" video showed the stalk, initial shot, then follow up. On this one, we had been hunting for tuskless, 12 days I think it was at that point. Lots of great stalks that were eventually busted or turned down due to dependent calves and such. I've touched on this in my hunt report back in October, but we were in need of bait again as any meat hung in the trees for the lion quest, was only lasting about 3 or 4 days max. On this particular morning, very shortly after leaving camp, while driving, we inadvertently split a herd of ele crossing the road. It left 2 tuskless and a dependent calf on our side of the road. There wasn't any stalking involved as the three wanted to cross the road and rejoin the larger group. We first had to determine which tuskless was the calf's mother. Once that was established, I walked up to about 20 yards and fired a frontal which struck her too high. As she spun to depart, I fired another from a side / rear position and brained her perfectly. The video isn't great, nor does it have much context and that is the reason it hasn't been posted to date. However, it does demonstrate that the so called "quick recovery" from a lesser caliber weapon is not a valid point.

Jason, continue hunting elephant and you'll have close CNS misses as well. At elephant ranges, I can place my bullet with a 500 or 577 just as accurately as I can a 375. Many others here can as well. A close miss to the brain, as I've described with my experiences hasn't been because I didn't hit where I aimed, but rather because I aimed in the wrong place. I'm still trying to perfect the process of locating the brain on a real elephant standing in front of me at close range, usually while it is moving to some extent. Constantly computing that exact location under those circumstances is a bit tricky to say the least. The first tuskless (video reposted here) being the exception as she moved right as I pulled the trigger. I'd have missed just the same with a 375, but she likely wouldn't have dropped in the same manner. Please Jason, don't take "0 and 4" cheap shots unless you're willing to post video clips of your own experiences for all to comment on as well. After all, at this point, all we have to go on concerning your perfect 1 for 1 brain shot experience with a 375 is your word. To my knowledge, you haven't put the video evidence out there for all to judge! Very easy to make "0 for 4" comments when you are sitting in the theater seats, eating popcorn and drinking a Coke!

Eagle, here is that video once again for your review since you haven't been able to locate it. Sorry guys as you've all seen it numerous times now. But it does show 1) a quick recovery time between shots with a 500NE, and 2) a ele dropping in it's tracks even with a close miss to the brain.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzTm3PzBzIw

PD, please give me a day or so to upload the 577 ele vid.

No Matter What Caliber, Doesn't Matter Whether It's a Double Rifle Or A Bolt. It's all about BULLET PLACEMENT! I rest my case.

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
No Matter What Caliber, Doesn't Matter Whether It's a Double Rifle Or A Bolt. It's all about BULLET PLACEMENT! I rest my case.

Rick, before you rest your case, in viewing that video I posted above, you know, the one where the bullet was placed about 3" too low and 3" too far to the side, if "it's ALL about BULLET PLACEMENT" as you state, and rest your case and all, can you elaborate as to why the elephant DROPPED RIGHT IN ITS TRACKS WITHOUT PERFECT BULLET PLACEMENT? Can you guarantee the same BULLET PLACEMENT with a 375 would have resulted in the same reaction, you know, the reaction where the elephant "DROPPED RIGHT IN ITS TRACKS WITHOUT PERFECT BULLET PLACEMENT"? I certainly can't guarantee that the elephant wouldn't have dropped right in its tracks without perfect BULLET PLACEMENT with a 375 in this same manner, but what I CAN GUARANTEE is that this elephant did "DROP RIGHT IN ITS TRACKS WITOUT PERFECT BULLET PLACEMENT" while using a 500NE!!

There must be something to it other than being "ALL about BULLET PLACEMENT", to some extent .

I'll certainly agree that bullet placement is by far the most important aspect to dropping an elephant with a brain shot. Bell proved that with the 275 Rigby. However, within reason , that isn't "ALL" there is to it.

Harry Selby commented on this forum about two years ago regarding the effectiveness of the lowly 375. Selby has forgotten more about hunting big game and big game rifles than all the rest of us experts ever knew. So, regarding the original post and query . . . . Book the hunt, get some premium solids for that 375, get it shooting to a minute of elephant, and go blather an Nzou

If it goes sideways, you can go to Maun and take it up with Mr. Selby

quote:

Harry Selby commented on this forum about two years ago regarding the effectiveness of the lowly 375. Selby has forgotten more about hunting big game and big game rifles than all the rest of us experts ever knew.

That is about as absurd as saying since the pilot of the "Enola Gay" was a superb bomber pilot he was a great physicist--

Being a good hunter does not a ballistician make. In fact most, not all, but most great hunting guides dont know much about firearms-they find a couple of things that work FOR THEM and stay there.and it is certainly not necessary to be a great PH to be P.O Ackley or John Browning.

http://forums.accuratereloadin...1043/m/454103389/p/2

Says Mr. Selby:

In my opinion you have not only an exceptionally beautiful rifle there but an entirely practical one as well. In my fifty five years of professional hunting my respect for the .375 H&H cartridge has increased each time I saw it used. In my opinion the greatest cartridge ever developed. I would prefer to see a visiting hunter arrive for his safari with such a rifle than with a double of any caliber. Good luck on your hunt.

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
No Matter What Caliber, Doesn't Matter Whether It's a Double Rifle Or A Bolt. It's all about BULLET PLACEMENT! I rest my case.

That may be so BUT sometimes you can barely see your "bullet placement"...

I was glad to have "more gun" on this day;

This Ele was thankfully stopped with a failed frontal brain shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Cross L:

quote:

Harry Selby commented on this forum about two years ago regarding the effectiveness of the lowly 375. Selby has forgotten more about hunting big game and big game rifles than all the rest of us experts ever knew.

That is about as absurd as saying since the pilot of the "Enola Gay" was a superb bomber pilot he was a great physicist--

Being a good hunter does not a ballistician make. In fact most, not all, but most great hunting guides dont know much about firearms-they find a couple of things that work FOR THEM and stay there.and it is certainly not necessary to be a great PH to be P.O Ackley or John Browning.

It's not about being a ballistician. It's about having been there and having done that and knowing what works and what does not. Selby wasn't guiding 7 days plains game hunts in his 55 years afield. He was on multi week and multi month safaris for all of the big stuff. Most often multi elephant and big ones at that. The only absurdity would be to ignore his experiences, especially when so relevant to the OP.

Relevant, yes. Absurd, no.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
A close miss to the brain, as I've described with my experiences hasn't been because I didn't hit where I aimed, but rather because I aimed in the wrong place. I'm still trying to perfect the process of locating the brain on a real elephant standing in front of me at close range, usually while it is moving to some extent. Constantly computing that exact location under those circumstances is a bit tricky to say the least. The first tuskless (video reposted here) being the exception as she moved right as I pulled the trigger. I'd have missed just the same with a 375, but she likely wouldn't have dropped in the same manner. Please Jason, don't take "0 and 4" cheap shots unless you're willing to post video clips of your own experiences for all to comment on as well. After all, at this point, all we have to go on concerning your perfect 1 for 1 brain shot experience with a 375 is your word. To my knowledge, you haven't put the video evidence out there for all to judge! Very easy to make "0 for 4" comments when you are sitting in the theater seats, eating popcorn and drinking a Coke!

" Missing the brain due to aiming error... " That is a least part of my point. Before I took my "rat gun" elephant hunt I did some exhaustive research regarding brain shot placement on elephant because I knew that there was no margin for error with the 375. I have stated before that when the time came to make the shot(elephant moving away, uphill, 25 yards) I felt as though I could "see" the brain and I didn't really have to make any calculations. I got the rifle up and swinging, aimed at the brain and pulled the trigger and the elephant fell.

I have no doubt that many(not all, but many) big-bore hunters hold their cannons in such high esteem that they subconsciously believe that their shot placement can be less than perfect and they "cannon" will save the day(this is often true, BTW). If you think about it this is not all that different than big-bore guys accusing the 375ers of relying on the PH for back-up.

I apologize for the perceived cheap-shot regarding the "0 for 4". I didn't remember who had said it and I didn't go back to check. It just stuck in my head and I mentioned it because I thought it served to prove my point. I didn't mean it as a cheap shot.

I don't have any video of any of my hunts, so I guess you will have to take me at my word, or not. I did have the elephant's skull shipped home, but it is in my grandparent's basement(someday I'll have a proper trophy room and I will display the tusks in the skull, with the skull in it's natural position). While I'm telling everyone how great I am I will mention that I killed two buffalo on the same hunt. My 375 took the pluming right off the top of the heart on both bulls and neither went more than 20 or 30 yards.

I won't mention the warthog and impala that I missed or the eland that I shot in the ass(I thought I was aiming at the front shoulder) or the warthog I wounded.

I have had a couple of messages regarding this on why I only use a 375.

I have rifles that cover every caliber from 17 to 700.

I designed and built the 375/404 specifically to fullfill my own requirements, of being one rifle for everything.

This came about because I wanted to avoid the hassle of taking several rifles that might be better at hunting specific animals, but cannot do it as well as the 375/404.

It will be 18 years since I sarted this, and the more we all hunt with this caliber, the more convinced we are that it is the right choice to make.

It makes life so much easier.

One rifle, one load, covers every animal at all reasonable distances.

I have shot animals with it from about 10 yards to about 500 yards.

Furthest I have shot an elephant with it was 65 yards.

One shot in the brain and he was dead before he hit the ground.

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
A close miss to the brain, as I've described with my experiences hasn't been because I didn't hit where I aimed, but rather because I aimed in the wrong place. I'm still trying to perfect the process of locating the brain on a real elephant standing in front of me at close range, usually while it is moving to some extent. Constantly computing that exact location under those circumstances is a bit tricky to say the least. The first tuskless (video reposted here) being the exception as she moved right as I pulled the trigger. I'd have missed just the same with a 375, but she likely wouldn't have dropped in the same manner. Please Jason, don't take "0 and 4" cheap shots unless you're willing to post video clips of your own experiences for all to comment on as well. After all, at this point, all we have to go on concerning your perfect 1 for 1 brain shot experience with a 375 is your word. To my knowledge, you haven't put the video evidence out there for all to judge! Very easy to make "0 for 4" comments when you are sitting in the theater seats, eating popcorn and drinking a Coke!

" Missing the brain due to aiming error... " That is a least part of my point. Before I took my "rat gun" elephant hunt I did some exhaustive research regarding brain shot placement on elephant because I knew that there was no margin for error with the 375. I have stated before that when the time came to make the shot(elephant moving away, uphill, 25 yards) I felt as though I could "see" the brain and I didn't really have to make any calculations. I got the rifle up and swinging, aimed at the brain and pulled the trigger and the elephant fell.

I have no doubt that many(not all, but many) big-bore hunters hold their cannons in such high esteem that they subconsciously believe that their shot placement can be less than perfect and they "cannon" will save the day(this is often true, BTW). If you think about it this is not all that different than big-bore guys accusing the 375ers of relying on the PH for back-up.

I apologize for the perceived cheap-shot regarding the "0 for 4". I didn't remember who had said it and I didn't go back to check. It just stuck in my head and I mentioned it because I thought it served to prove my point. I didn't mean it as a cheap shot.

I don't have any video of any of my hunts, so I guess you will have to take me at my word, or not. I did have the elephant's skull shipped home, but it is in my grandparent's basement(someday I'll have a proper trophy room and I will display the tusks in the skull, with the skull in it's natural position). While I'm telling everyone how great I am I will mention that I killed two buffalo on the same hunt. My 375 took the pluming right off the top of the heart on both bulls and neither went more than 20 or 30 yards.

I won't mention the warthog and impala that I missed or the eland that I shot in the ass(I thought I was aiming at the front shoulder) or the warthog I wounded.

OK, Jason, I suppose that now you are telling me you have spent MORE time than I in practicing exactly where to place the bullet on ele brain shots. I have no idea how much time you've spent at it but I have spent extensive time studying the elephant skull anatomy and the location of the brain. Again, in the video posted above, she moved right as I fired. If you'd like, I can post another video, ONCE AGAIN, showing the entry wound on a rather long shot side brain shot elephant (different one BTW) whereby she fell face first, never to move again, but I felt she needed a follow up shot once approaching due to some of the sounds she was making. That shot was about 1" low and taken offhand, not sticks, from about 40 yards. By all accounts, I could have called that one perfect, as she never moved. But since I paid the insurance, I chose to call it a close CNS miss as well.

Sorry, but I don't not have video of my first ele, a bull. But it was a 12 yard side brain shot where the PH told me to shoot 1 handspan in front of the earhole. It dropped him on his face and we all thought he was done. A few minutes later, he showed signs of life and I fired insurance shots into the chest. The only ele so far that I've missed the brain completely was the first shot with the 577 that I'll be posting in a couple of days. As I said, the video is not that good. Reason being for the poor quality is the exact reason why I placed the shot too high. Of course this will sound like an excuse until you view the video, but it will become absolutely clear what I'm talking bout when you see it. It was early morning, with the sun just above the horizon. The shot was exactly straight into the sun and I found it difficult to locate the exact spot. As she spun, her head blocked the sun long enough for me to gain a very quick sight picture. As you said, I didn't need to figure it out, I just knew where it needed to go. So I consider my skill at finding that brain and tracking it through the animal's movements to be getting better.

Also, I'm not one of the guys who shows up in safari camp with a big bore with no experience shooting it. I'm not scared of a big bore rifle. I view them a challenge to master, and welcome the opportunity to do so. To give you an example of my commitment to getting this right with a big bore rifle, I received my new bespoke VC 500NE rifle now several weeks ago. I don't remember exactly how long a go. I'd have to check the invoice. I think it's been in my possession now for 8 weeks. Maybe nine. Because I'm working up loads for it at this time, I'm tracking each and every shot fired and what it does regarding placement and velocity from the chrony. As of Sunday, yesterday, since receiving the rifle about 8 weeks ago, I've now fired 388 rounds through it. Imagine how many more rounds it will have down the barrel by the time Buzz and I go afield this December. If I go 0 for 5, it won't be because I'm not familiar with the rifle, not that I can't shoot the rifle, not that I don't know where the brain is theoretically. But as Adam pointed out, many times, in the tick stuff where you find them, sometimes your view to that exact football sized spot is obstructed, or it moves unexpectedly. And in that case, where I've done my best improve the record to 1 of 5, should I go 0 of 5 instead, I'll be ready with the quick backup as I've demonstrated previously, and do not expect to be hampered by excessive recoil in getting the rifle back into play.

As I said, if you continue hunting elephant, not just the one you've tackled, you will find that the close CNS miss is not uncommon. This discussion has been hammered to death in the past. For some reason, I'm thinking you and I have specifically been down this road as well.

I have the skull from my ele bull in my back yard. I never walk past it, or look out the back window without visualizing where the shot should go. I've watched Buzz's "Hunting the African Elephant" so many times that the DVE doesn't play correctly any longer. All this simply to make the point that elephant hunting and buffalo hunting are my true passions at this time. It's about the only thing I want to do concerning hunting anymore. I've studied the brain shot and how to place the bullet in the correct place with great zeal. That I haven't hit it exactly perfectly to date is hardly due to a lack of study or ability to place the bullet where I am. If you want to continue down the road that you are 1 for 1 and I'm 0 for 4, by all means go ahead. But I submit that the entire story isn't being told. Much in like the 10 second sound bite on CNN easily paints the hunter as the villain in terms of destroying wildlife in Africa today when the truth is far from that, but requires more introspect.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:

PD, please give me a day or so to upload the 577 ele vid.

Thanks Todd
Peter

quote:

Originally posted by JBrown:

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
So now we hear from those who have admittedly NEVER killed an Ele and those whose vast Ele experience is based upon that "one" Ele they killed with a rat gun

I believe you and I have the same amount of experience using the 375 on elephant bulls(one each). I understand that you have moved on to the big bores and gained some experience with them, but it is my opinion that no matter how many elephant you shoot with a 458 none of that experience translates to shooting elephant with a 375.

I have come to believe that a lot of the big bore guys try to extrapolate their experience regarding the effectiveness of bigbores into the effectiveness(or lack of effectiveness) of the 375. In doing this it is easy to come to the conclusion that, "it took 4 shots to kill it with a .500, thank God I wasn't using a puny little .375 it would have escaped wounded!"

The problem with this type of thinking is that it is the placement of the first shot that is most critical, and the shootability of the 375 gives it a distinct advantage in placement of that first shot.

Saeed's videos are proof of that.

Once again, I think JBrown is smoking some of that green vegetable matter so popular in his area of the Russian River country. What else could possibly explain his inane comments in this thread?

You know damn good and well your Elephant hunting experience is limited to ONE. You also know that I have taken more Ele than you. So that alone makes my experience on hunting and killing Ele greater than yours, regardless of the caliber used. I wonder if shooting ducks with a 12ga is so vastly different from shooting them with a 410ga?

Listen JBrown, and please try to get this through the smokey haze, given ideal conditions, Ele may be killed using a .22LR. Unfortunately Ele hunting is highly unpredictable and ideal conditions seldom present themselves. It is those unpredictable occasions that give a distinct edge to the man who is competent with the larger caliber rifle. The only PH I ever had who carried a .375 was in RSA. In every other country I've hunted, every PH has carried something well above a .375. Perhaps they have come to conclusions different than your opinions and beliefs, which you are so fond of stating. And who are you to presume that "...big bore guys try to extrapolate..." anything? Apparently in your hazy world big bore users are unable to quantify and evaluate their experience with the same degree of expertise with which you are endowed.

I don't think I have ever read, never, where a big bore shooter has made the blatantly silly statement that the first shot is not important. Yet this is what you so pompously allude to in your third paragraph! WTF??? So by extension, if one were to follow your flawed logic, Michael458, Todd Williams, Cross L, ozhunter and I, to name only a few AR posters who are very experienced large bore DG hunters, can't shoot for shit. I would bet serious money that everyone of us can shoot our large bores, be they bolt guns or DRs, at least as well as you and your rat gun. BTW, I've made hits at 1000 yards, as recently as two weeks ago, with a rifle I'd never shot before.

Saeeds videos are simply not proof in support of your silly argument and I doubt you could hold your own on a range with him. I know I could.

BTW, are you prepared to state that a .375H&H should be considered a "stopping" caliber? And if not, why would any PH or big game hunter need such a rifle? What caliber was your PH carrying on your ONE and only Ele hunt?

Put away the smoke and get serious. I have always said I don't care what caliber anyone chooses to use. It's your life.

Todd and Loin hunter

This is not an argument regarding our respective shooting ability. I have little doubt that both of you could out shoot me. To tell the truth I am not any type great shot. I do usually preform coolly under pressure and that has helped me to make the shots I make.

Todd
I don't know how you can "practice" making the brain shot unless you are actually shooting elephant. What I was referring to was studying books like Mahobo(sp) and the perfect shot along with videos. I never practiced the brain shot until I took one, but I had done a lot of research. Regardless, I didn't mean to offend you in any way and I hope we can stick to arguing the merits of each type of weapon instead of trying to attack each other. BTW, I will happily concede that I would miss a brain shot if I were to have enough chances. As I said I am not really a great shot with any weapon. Having said that I will add that I stood withing 25 yards of my elephant for quite some time before finally getting the shot that I felt comfortable with.

Lion Hunter

I don't know what crawled up your backside but I will say that you need to reread what I wrote. No one ever said that anyone admitted that they believed that shot placement wasn't important. On the contrary, many big bore guys SUBCONSCIOUSLY believe their weapon will make up for a less than perfect shot. How else can you explain the scenarios where and elephant or buffalo has to be hit with half a pound of lead before falling? In every case the "first shot was a bit low...." or some similar BS.

BTW I have never stated that the 375 was a stopping caliber(Never). Maybe you are the one "smoking the green stuff"? The 375 is not a proper PH caliber because the PH needs to have a "defensive" weapon that is fit to fix the clients screw-ups.

My PH was carrying a 416 Remington. If I were in his shoes I would not have wanted to carry any less. The 375 is not a proper weapon for a PH on a buffalo or elephant hunt.

The 375 is an offensive weapon and as such it is NEARLY unmatched. Offensive weapons are best used on unwounded game.

The bigger bores are great defensive weapons, and I would want one if I were trying to tackle game that had been wounded by someone else. The problem with the big bores is that they seem to be responsible for more bungled fires shots.

BTW, lion hunter, when are you going to tell us who you are? You keep dropping hints, but I guess I'm not sharp enough to figure it out. Maybe you can PM me. I'll buy you a drink next time you visit the wine country. I'm guessing that after you meet me you will realize that I'm not some pot head.

Jason,

I appreciate the tone of your response as I too prefere to debate merits of the arguments instead of attacks. I never tire of the engagement as long as the discussion is kept on those terms.

By "practicing" the brain shot, I mean that any picture, ele mount (not found very often), the skull in my back yard, etc. is instantly viewed as "where would my aiming point be". I have a nice painting in my trophy room that has about 40 eles in it. All with slightly different head angles. I can't tell you how many times each of those elephants in that painting have been shot with my double! Same thing when mowing the back yard as I pass my on my zero turn mower, I continually compute where I would aim from that particular angle. Actually ran into a tree the other day "practicing" on that skull instead of watching where the mower was going! Just trying to make the point that I study that shot placement in much greater detail than I'll ever be able to put it into actual use.

Watching Buzz's video and mentally placing the shot before the brain pan fades in is good practice. You can nail it every time. But regardless of how often you visualize it, when that great beast is standing before you, moving, obscured in brush, possibly even threatening, very quick and accurate thinking is needed to hit the spot perfectly. In fact, drifting the topic just a bit, it's that requirement of a quickly arrived at shot solution with a DG animal that knows you are there that I really enjoy about hunting buffalo and elephant. Saeed said recently, you hunt buffalo, but you shoot hippo. Well for me DG taken at 100 yards or more are shot not hunted. That's just my opinion. No one has to agree. I've done both and felt cheated when shooting buff at a distance because I know what the difference in terms of experience is doing it up close.

Jason, I don't profess to be a great shot. I don't want my posts to come across that way. I have no shooting competition titles to my name. But I love to shoot and I love to shoot big bore weapons, be they rifle or pistol. If I were to enter the DSC Big Bore shoot, I have no idea how I would do compared to the guys that routinely place well in that competition. But I am confident that I can handle big bore weapons with aplomb at the ranges they are designed to be utilized at. Sorry if this came off as personal toward you concerning the 375, but it's an old mantra here that "everyone" can shoot the 375 better than the big bores so that's what "everyone" should use. We see it in the anecdotal statements of "Selby recommends a 375" and such. I have no doubt that is the case. I've heard PHs say it as well. I've not had a PH tell me they wish I would stick to a 375! The PHs I know, who will also state favor of the 375, will readily qualify that with "unless the client is proficient with a big bore"! And just to touch on that one other point briefly, proficiency with a big bore goes a long way to mitigate that so called "recovery time" between shots. When well practiced with the big guns, there is no "eye opening" surprise as how hard it kicked. You know it and expect it and reacquisition comes easily. I've not shot the 600NE so I'll refrain from comment on that of which I have no experience. But 500NE and 577NE, yes, I know them well. Neither will dislodge one from his stance (unless off balance to begin with), neither will dislodge the rifle from the hands, neither will dislodge the rifle from the shoulder / cheek weld to the point that the gun recoils wildly causing the shooter to have to regain control and seek the sights again. The video I posted above shows that with the 500NE. The 577 video is coming.

Which brings the discussion back to the OP. 375 enough for elephant? Yep. So is the 275 Rigby (7x57). However, the larger the weapon that a man, or woman, can master and use effectively, the better suited that person will be upon entering the thick jesse where things don't always go as planned. Adam (ozhunter) really put it into the best perspective I've seen so far a little while back. He stated a solitary ele bull in a relatively open area on a late season hunt - 375 is well suited to taking him cleanly. Early season hunt in the jesse, with thick greenery and leaves, tuskless or even a bull mixed with a herd, many of which can't been seen, some you aren't even aware of, generally conditions whereby close, sometimes multiple, and often defensive shooting can be expected - best to bring the biggest weapon you can handle as it is possible to knock an ele off its feet, at least temporarily with a close CNS miss and the larger the weapon under those circumstances, the better chance you have of getting the job done. Obviously, this has to be stated "within reason" as one cannot simply expect to shoot an elephant in the foot with a 700NE and get that knock out punch.

quote:

Loin hunter

Now that sounds like the Mike I met at DSC----

TODD!
QUIT YELLING AT ME!!!
No doubt, missing by 3" with a .500 Nitro imparts quite a bit of shock to the elephant but to kill it, it still about putting the bullet in the right place. I'm not and wasn't arguing with you. I believe that had you not finished the elephant with another shot that eventually, it may have recovered and run off. After some of the poor shooting and shot placement by the less than average hunter(and even some of the more experienced hunters) that I have witnessed, I understand why some of the PH's state that the .375 is a preferred caliber they like to see the client bring. Most of us that shoot and practice with big bores can handle a .375 quite easily, that doesn't account for the hunters that shoot once or twice a year and don't even like the recoil a .300 Win mag produces. When they show up in camp, flinching and closing their eyes as they pull the trigger, that has got to be a concern for a lot of the PH's. Not everybody has the lack of recoil sensitivity that big bore shooters get used to. My point was that No matter the caliber, whether it's a big double or a .375 in a bolt rifle, it still boils down to shot placement.

When it comes to elephants I listen to J. Hunter and that means 500 nitro.

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
TODD!
QUIT YELLING AT ME!!!
No doubt, missing by 3" with a .500 Nitro imparts quite a bit of shock to the elephant but to kill it, it still about putting the bullet in the right place. I'm not and wasn't arguing with you. I believe that had you not finished the elephant with another shot that eventually, it may have recovered and run off. After some of the poor shooting and shot placement by the less than average hunter(and even some of the more experienced hunters) that I have witnessed, I understand why some of the PH's state that the .375 is a preferred caliber they like to see the client bring. Most of us that shoot and practice with big bores can handle a .375 quite easily, that doesn't account for the hunters that shoot once or twice a year and don't even like the recoil a .300 Win mag produces. When they show up in camp, flinching and closing their eyes as they pull the trigger, that has got to be a concern for a lot of the PH's. Not everybody has the lack of recoil sensitivity that big bore shooters get used to. My point was that No matter the caliber, whether it's a big double or a .375 in a bolt rifle, it still boils down to shot placement.

OK Rickster. No more yelling. Actually, I didn't mean to yell. The caps were just the closest I could come to using the black highlighter for emphasis!

Oh sure, now you make nice! I also believe that the bigger bores impart more shock, as evidenced by your knockdown with a missed brain shot. BUT, we're convinced that bigger is better.
Get your Turkey yet?

Wingnut and Williams, brothers separated at birth. In fact, I have a photo of their high school graduation together (at 23 years old!!)

Biebs,
Now you're posting incorrect information. I graduated at 23. Todd is older than me and he didn't make it until 24.

JBrown-

Thanks for your reply.

However, once again you make all encompassing statements which are simply not fact. You state that "...many big bore guys SUBCONSCIOUSLY believe their weapon will make up for a less than perfect shot." How the hell can you know what anyone SUBCONSCIOUSLY believes, barring lengthy therapy sessions??? If you could do so , you'd have a great future and be a very wealthy man. Again I say WTF? Where do you come up with this wild-ass stuff? And do you really believe what you're saying or is it the grape talking?

The Ele brain shot most frequently goes in low if it misses the brain. Ask any well experienced Ele PH. This has to do with the steep angle of the Ele head when it is trying to identify the hunter in a close-up confrontation, before it decides to drop its' head and either charge or depart the area.

There are no "offensive" or "defensive" weapons. Any and all weapons can be employed in either mode, depending upon the circumstances and/or ones position on the battlefield. Once again, an absolutely silly statement from you.

For whatever reason, you apparently have a deep aversion to accepting the experience of others, including those with much more experience than you, so you instead revel in making insulting and outrageous statements to/about them. In preparation for our Ele hunt in June, both my SIL and I have each fired approximately 300 full load 500NE rounds from our double rifles. We are capable of placing 4 rounds within a 1"-1.5" bullseye at 25 yards, which clearly qualifies as "minute of Elephant". We will likely fire another 100 rounds each prior to our departure. In addition, I will fire over 100 rounds with my .458B&M which is going along as a combination back-up DG and PG rifle. Shooting is an acquired skill and, as such, it requires practice to maintain it at a high level of proficiency. Use it or loose it.

I am fascinated by your curiosity but your lack of research initiative is demonstrative of your approach to the issue at hand. I only refer to the pot issue as I cannot imagine an alternative justification for the outrageous statements you make on AR. I would, however, share a glass with you without rancor.

Keep well,

In the end, the OP abandoned his quest and decided not to shoot an elephant with his 375.

Why?

Not for fear of being unable to kill the elephant with a 375, but for fear of being debated to death for doing so.

Some real Master Debaters round here.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:

There are no "offensive" or "defensive" weapons. Any and all weapons can be employed in either mode...