Would anyone know who Harry Selby was if he had not been assigned by Ker & Downey - not by request - as a young PH to guide the writer Robert Ruark? Just askin'.

What rifles did these post-war Elephant hunter/PHs choose and recommend? Hint: it wasn't the .375.

Richard Harland
Ron Thomson
Tony Snachez-Arino
Buzz Charlton
Cliff Walker
Ian Nyschens
Sten Cedergren
Craig Boddington
Ivan Carter

And the list goes on... As does the argument.

quote:

Would anyone know who Harry Selby was if he had not been assigned by Ker & Downey - not by request - as a young PH to guide the writer Robert Ruark? Just askin'

Most definitely.

Pray tell?

The .375 is too light for elephant, IMHO. They are ornerier than ever these days, and with elephant, things go south fast. But I'd sure as hell use a .375 rather than stay home!

quote:

Originally posted by Michael Robinson:
But I'd sure as hell use a .375 rather than stay home!

This.

quote:

Originally posted by Biebs:
Wingnut and Williams, brothers separated at birth. In fact, I have a photo of their high school graduation together (at 23 years old!!)

I'm the better looking of the two however! Rick is the serious one!

Will, "master debaters"! Isn't that the definition of a Lawyer?

quote:

Pray tell?

For the same reason we know about:

Frederick Selous
Samuel Baker
John Sutton
George Hoffman
Luke Samaras
Andy Holmberg
Denys Finch-HAtton
Broro Blixen
Jeff Rann
Mark Sullivan
John Taylor
Syd Downey
Donald Ker
Lou Hallamore
Andrew Dawson
Ivan Carter
Iyn Nychens
John Hunter
Kalman Kittenberger
Denie Lyell
etc ad nauseum.....


Hunting with Ruark was not necessary for these hunters to have made their name. Yet here we are , still buying their stories and talking about them like we knew them. Greatness in one's chosen field is generally all one needs in order to be recognized and remembered. Selby has this with aplomb.

It seems to me that you are way off topic here. But, wow, I'm impressed with your list making ability!

I know you are not suggesting that the people in your list had a preference for the .375 on Elephant, which is the topic of this thread. Or are you?

Never mind, the question was rhetorical and I have no interest in playing with you. Have a great life

My damn ears AIN'T that big. Todd, you lying so...... Own up to it.........

quote:

It seems to me that you are way off topic here.

That's hilarious...you post a question, rhetorical or not, and I'm off base. Typical revising of the premise to suit your answer. Indeed, have a nice life...oh and I am still a wolf, by the way. Just sayin'

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
My damn ears AIN'T that big. Todd, you lying so...... Own up to it.........

OK, OK, OK ... I'm the serious AND good looking one!!


BTW, PD999, the 577NE ele clip is now uploading to Youtube. Again, it's just to show that recovery time between the first and second shot is really not a valid issue. That should be something relevant to the OP of this thread.

Lion Hunter
I think you have misread my tone. I'm not looking to insult anyone.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
"...many big bore guys SUBCONSCIOUSLY believe their weapon will make up for a less than perfect shot." How the hell can you know what anyone SUBCONSCIOUSLY believes, barring lengthy therapy sessions???

You are right, I never have had a big-bore shooter in a therapy session(probably because I am not a therapist). If I did my first question would be, "why do you get so upset when someone questions you weapon?"


My reason for believing that "...many big bore guys SUBCONSCIOUSLY believe their weapon will make up for a less than perfect shot." is due to the fact that so many big bore guys make poorly placed shots on animals. IMO this is usually because of poor shot choice(moving animals, front end shots, unclear target, etc.). Sometimes it is simply lack of anatomical knowledge of lack of shooting ability with the big bores, but I really believe it is simply poor shot selection.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
There are no "offensive" or "defensive" weapons. Any and all weapons can be employed in either mode, depending upon the circumstances and/or ones position on the battlefield. Once again, an absolutely silly statement from you.

Yes, any weapon can be employed as either offensive of defensive, but there is no denying that some fill one role well while being marginal in the other. for example: a 375 with a high powered scope is a great offensive weapon on DG, but it is a poor defensive weapon when dealing with wounded animals in the thick stuff. OTOH, an iron sighted 600NE is great for tackling DG in thick brush or wounded game when a charge is likely, but it is a poor choice when shots are further than a stone's throw or when great precision is necessary. It would be silly to argue this point.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
For whatever reason, you apparently have a deep aversion to accepting the experience of others, including those with much more experience than you, so you instead revel in making insulting and outrageous statements to/about them.

No one can match the experience of Harry Selby when it comes to guiding clients on DG hunts and he seems to have nothing but praise for the 375. He did it for 55 straight years without a break. That is the record, BTW.

I didn't mean to disparage or insult anyone. This is not about the experience and expertise of any one person, but rather about the overall performance of big bores vs. the 375.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
In preparation for our Ele hunt in June, both my SIL and I have each fired approximately 300 full load 500NE rounds from our double rifles. We are capable of placing 4 rounds within a 1"-1.5" bullseye at 25 yards, which clearly qualifies as "minute of Elephant". We will likely fire another 100 rounds each prior to our departure. In addition, I will fire over 100 rounds with my .458B&M which is going along as a combination back-up DG and PG rifle. Shooting is an acquired skill and, as such, it requires practice to maintain it at a high level of proficiency. Use it or loose it.

Again, this isn't about you, or other single person. There are exceptional shooters that use the 375 to great effect(Saeed?) but that is not what this argument is about.

Todd

I say this with all sincerity, that shooting on the cow with the 577 was the best shooting I have seen with a +.500. Impressive!

Thanks Jason. That one was the 500NE however. I'm currently loading the 577NE clip. Youtube says another 31 minutes. My connection speed is just really slow living out in the country and all.

And I do have to apologize ahead of time as I didn't edit much into the 577NE clip for the sake of making it interesting this time. Just trying to get it posted for now. I'll go back and add some music and or context later. Haven't been "inspired" on this little clip just yet for some reason. But that's one of the things I enjoy about editing and filming. The challenge of putting something together that holds one's interest.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
Thanks Jason. That one was the 500NE however.

Regardless, that was an impressive follow-up shot.

Ok guys. Finally got the 577NE clip loaded.

Again, just a bit of background and reason for the video clip post. Firstly, the fact that even shooting a 577NE, recovery time between the first and second shot is just not an issue or valid reason for choosing a smaller weapon. Practice and proficiency with the weapon will prevent the rifle from recoiling wildly, loosing your footing, and having to search for the sights again. Specifically, notice that the second shot was the successful shot, not the first in this clip.

And as we have been discussing, that close CNS miss on an elephant has more room for error with the larger caliber weapons, but there is a limit to how far that close miss can be off. In this case, the first shot missed too far to be effective.

Again, the first shot being a miss was not the result of not being able to shoot the weapon accurately. I think the second shot proves that. The issue was that even with an almost obsessive amount of time spent visualizing bullet placement in an attempt to locate the ele brain from all angles, actual in the field experience is always challenging in pulling it off successfully; especially the frontal. You can visualize it all year, but when the sun is directly in your eyes, you're concerned with what the other animal is doing as your attention zooms in on your target, the ele continues to move while aiming forcing one to continually recompute the aim point, even as the trigger is being squeezed, etc., it's a tough shot. Using a 375 would not have made the first shot easier to place. Obviously, the second shot shows I can place the bullet where I want to, it's just damn tough figuring out where I want too!

One more time, I apologize for the final part of the video being less than great as the sun washed out everything. Actual range at the shot was 18 yards although the camera angle, or rather focal length makes it look further. There is also not much additional editing of content and context into this clip. I'll work on that later and attempt to put something together that is more interesting. I post videos because I hope others enjoy watching some of my hunts as I always enjoy watching your hunts when made available. So with that, here is the 577NE tuskless video clip from October 2012 with CMS safaris.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...GWA&feature=youtu.be

Todd,
that was magnificent shooting! You handled that 577NE like a real pro!

Your post above nicely summarizes why, if one was to practice enough, a large bore like the 577NE could provide 'extra insurance' if the circumstances of the hunt were not 'range perfect'. Your shooting has convinced me; I'm sold on the 577NE. I'd better start saving up!

Thanks again,
Peter

Todd, great video of the 577 in action and thanks for re-posting the earlier one with your 500. Cool shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by LionHunter:
I killed my first Ele bull with a .375H&H over 15 years ago. I came home and immediately started looking for a larger caliber rifle.

LionHunter what happened on your first ele hunt that turned you to larger calibre rifles. The OP asked the very question that you could answer having experience with a 375 on ele but you haven't elaborated on what made you immediately look for something bigger to use. No hidden agenda in my question as I respect your decision, just curious to know?

Todd,
could I ask whether you swapped out a scoped smaller-caliber double (beginning of video) with the open-sighted 577NE (end of video)?
Nice shooting again!

Todd..... Excellent gun handling!!!!!

quote:

But I'd sure as hell use a .375 rather than stay home!

Not me! I'd just as soon be in hell as to soil myself with a rat gun.

In one of my very early trips to Zimbabwe, a straight thru trip, I arrived, my rifles did not! We found they were stuck in J'burg courtesy of SAA! The available camp rifle was a 375. No thanks. The only saving grace it was a Winchester M70, but still I refused to hunt or shoot until my rifle arrived, a 22 inch 458 Winchester, M70 of course. I would not defile myself by using a 375. I lost 3 full days out of 8. And by god, I would have lost the entire 8 before lowering myself to having to use a 375. There are some things I will not Compromise!

Michael

quote:

Originally posted by michael458:
I'd just as soon be in hell as to soil myself with a rat gun.

Cool! Btw, you might want to lock the comment section on the video clip. You know you are going to get some raving anti's that don't understand.

I have never hunted elephant but I sure as hell would not follow a wounded one up with a 375. Make sure you put the bullet in the right place and the 375 will do the job, it has more than enough penetration. Cant understand why it is referred to as a 'rat gun', it is an insult to a Classic Cartridge that has served MANY hunters well on ALL game!!!

I will use my 375/404 as a stopper for any living animal.

If I wasn't sure of this I would not be hunting with it.

Loved the video clip Todd.

As you and others have said and demonstrated, recovery time between shots is no different than with a lesser caliber.

Goods shooting!

Great video brother! Great shooting as well.

Thanks guys.

PD,

The smaller scoped double was my 9.3x74R. In the start of that clip, we had just dropped our lion baits after scoring on my lion the evening prior. While dropping the bait in that river bottom, we noticed two lioness waiting for us to leave in the bush. So we sneaked back down the river to take some pictures. I had the small double in hand for self defense, but certainly not wanting to use it.

As we walked toward the now dropped bait, we passed a little clump of very thick jesse bush about 20 yards away. About twice the size of an elephant. Damn if there wasn't a cow ele in there that none of us saw until we had passed it. She then saw us and proceeded to chase us the little bit that you saw there. She was just letting us know who was boss really.

And the good part was that both lioness were still feeding on the bait once we got past the little confrontation with the ele. It did get the heart going just a bit!!

One day when I grow up I want to be able to shoot like Todd!!!!!!!

HEH......

Just don't have a clue as to when I am going to decide to grow up????

That's what practice does for you!
And Todd, seriously, "the good looking one"??? Even mother said we had faces only a mother could love.

quote:

Originally posted by pagosawingnut:
That's what practice does for you!
And Todd, seriously, "the good looking one"??? Even mother said we had faces only a mother could love.

Yeah, but who's mother?


Michael,

Let's hope none of us completely grow up!! I certainly don't want to!

12k-14k foot pounds of muzzle energy in 1.5 seconds or less is impressive as hell. That would make me feel much better about picking a fight with an animal capable of such mayhem. That was excellent gun handling skills IMO. You obviously have put in the practice time needed to master that rifle. I would enjoy meeting you at the range and learning a thing or two.

Moreso today than yesteryear, PHs tend to carry a big bore or double to back up clients..Most of them when hunting elephant for themselves use a lighter caliber such as a .375 or 9.3x62, Johan Calitz tells his clients that if they can shoot the .375 is all the gun they need.

I have not shot an elephant with a .375 but I have witnessed many elephant, Hippo, and Buffalo kills with that caliber, and I would not hesitate to hunt any animal on earth with it and the older I get recoil becomes more of a problem so my go to rifle these days is the 9.3x62 and a 375 H&H..

Every hunter has to make that choice for himself, it makes no difference what someone else uses..Use the one you can shoot the best is the only real advise I can think of..

quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
Moreso today than yesteryear, PHs tend to carry a big bore or double to back up clients..Most of them when hunting elephant for themselves use a lighter caliber such as a .375 or 9.3x62, Johan Calitz tells his clients that if they can shoot the .375 is all the gun they need.

I have not shot an elephant with a .375 but I have witnessed many elephant, Hippo, and Buffalo kills with that caliber, and I would not hesitate to hunt any animal on earth with it and the older I get recoil becomes more of a problem so my go to rifle these days is the 9.3x62 and a 375 H&H..

Every hunter has to make that choice for himself, it makes no difference what someone else uses.. Use the one you can shoot the best is the only real advise I can think of..

Learn to shoot the one you want is the best advise I can think of!

For me, never having been to Africa, this has been the most fascinating thread that I have followed in a long time. It's almost as if we were standing around the campfire having this debate. Good thing there is no liquor involved or there might have been a fight..LOLOL

I love big bores but I can't shoot them like Todd and some of the others here. However, with some practice, most of us should be able to master even a 500 off sticks at elephant hunting ranges which are usually very close. But every person has their "threshold of tolerable recoil" and in that respect, I would suggest that Mr. Atkinson is right. If you are going off on and elephant hunt, whether it's your first or your 21st bring the biggest caliber that you can shoot, use quality bullets and practice, practice, practice with that gun before you are off.. If it'a a .375, then so be it. You are better off with a medium bore that you can shoot than a big bore that you can't.

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

For me, never having been to Africa, this has been the most fascinating thread that I have followed in a long time.

Caliber selection and reverence of certain calibers are generational as well.

When I was a boy of about 18 (20 years ago), I knew approximately 20 hunters that had shot elephants. All but one shot them with a 375. The 375 was their big bore rifle.

The one that did not use a 375 shot a 458 borrowed from the PH. Incidentally, that hunter's big bore was a 338 which he used to bag dozens of buffalo and most every animal on the continent, save elephant.

I also remember watching hunting videos from 20 years ago. Lots of Russ Broom; Buffalo Range, etc. Those client hunters showed up with lots of 375s as their big gun. Lots of elephants hit the dirt too.

More than ten years ago, and maybe 15, I can remember scraping up $100 to buy five raffle tickets for a chance to win a Merkel double in 375 and thinking that I'd be Hell on Wheels for elephants with that cannon!

Fast forward to now and there are infinitely more bullets and components available to load the old NE offerings and the true big bores as well as factory ammunition in stopper calibers with premium bullets up front. Add to that the fact that the doubles and big bullets are just plain cool, and you are going to have a big bore and double rifle following. They are probably better suited to the job and I personally believe in shooting the largest caliber that you can accurately shoot and carry all day when hunting DG. For me, that's not a 375, but history tells me a 375 will work just fine on elephant.

My PH when I went to Tanz. said they use 30-06 to culll elephant and if they shot true, there was never a problem with 200 gr. solids

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
I have had a couple of messages regarding this on why I only use a 375.

I have rifles that cover every caliber from 17 to 700.

I designed and built the 375/404 specifically to fullfill my own requirements, of being one rifle for everything.

This came about because I wanted to avoid the hassle of taking several rifles that might be better at hunting specific animals, but cannot do it as well as the 375/404.

It will be 18 years since I sarted this, and the more we all hunt with this caliber, the more convinced we are that it is the right choice to make.

It makes life so much easier.

One rifle, one load, covers every animal at all reasonable distances.

I have shot animals with it from about 10 yards to about 500 yards.

Furthest I have shot an elephant with it was 65 yards.

One shot in the brain and he was dead before he hit the ground.

1995 year of origin: .375/404 Jeffery Saeed of 1995

It is easy to forget that the post WWII era saw the raising of the Iron Curtain and the partition of Germany.

There were few, if any DRs built during the war and very few immediately following it. With no DRs and, once Kynoch quit producing NE ammo, the .375 was almost the only game in town, at least until Winchester produced the .458wm circa 1957. By that time, the pre-war DRs were well worn and there was a dwindling source of ammunition. That is how things remained and why most african DG hunting was done with either the .375H&H or the .458wm. Jack Lott improved the .458 but it wasn't to become a production gun for a few decades. In reality, it wasn't until the late 1980s, when Remington introduced their version of the .416 and CZ began production of rifles in .458Lott that a variety of large bore rifles were again available. Ruger began to produce the wonderful RMR in .416Rigby and .458Lott. Federal began producing ammo for the 470NE and DRs again began to be produced and imported in quantity and in a selection of calibers. Remington, Federal and then Hornady began to produce large bore ammo for the masses.

So the resurgence in large bore rifles for use in africa is no more than about 25 years old.