Some of you guys are shooting guns that are much bigger and faster than the 458WM.

What will your bigger and faster cartridge do that the 458WM will not do?

make 2150 with all bullets, in all temps, and be lower pressure, every time, without a compressed load.

Then, PLEASE, if you can, why guys with the 458 winmag are constantly trying to make more of it than it is?

Will's SILLY (dangerous load data) post about going way over 2200 FPS, with mondo high pressure, is a perfect case in point.

458 winmag, 500gr at 2150 fps
1: High pressure
2: compressed load
3: history of 2 making the bullets work forward, and not making 2150fps
4: belt

458 lott/ackley/watts/AR/rigby/dakota/ga/webby with 500gr bullet at 2150fps

1: MUCH lower pressure than 458 winmag
2: uncompressed load
3: some of these aren't even belted

Much like the 300 savage.. nothing WRONG with it, but it will never be a 30-06

quote:

webby with 500gr bullet at 2150fps

Jeff - what's the recipe to get a 500 Grain whatever to slow down to 2150?? Couple spoons of tumbler media over 80 grains Blue Dot??

That is not really what I meant.

I am thinking on the terminal ballistics side.

If you shoot a buffalo with a 458AR or Lott or 460WbyM or 458WM, will the buffalo know the difference?

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:
That is not really what I meant.

I am thinking on the terminal ballistics side.

If you shoot a buffalo with a 458AR or Lott or 460WbyM or 458WM, will the buffalo know the difference?

Er?....Uh....Yes!!

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:
That is not really what I meant.

I am thinking on the terminal ballistics side.

If you shoot a buffalo with a 458AR or Lott or 460WbyM or 458WM, will the buffalo know the difference?

Er?....Uh....Yes!!

Tell me more.
Talk to me about penetration.
Talk to me about the kill.

My understanding is that I could legally and ethically use anything from a 375H&H on up.

You can, and the fact is that probably the single caliber that has taken the most buffalo (I know this is going to hurt many) is the 303 British with 215 grain bullets.
The Buffalo didn't know the difference and he will not ever know the difference, because he can't read.

You'll have yo ask some guys who've hunted Elephant with these calibers to get some field testimonials. I can tell you that doing some fairly simple ballistics calculations it's quite apparent that there is an extreme spread in destructive power between 458 Win Mag and 460 Wby.

Example:

458 Win Mag - 500 Grain FN @ 2100 FPS = 4895 FPE

460 Weatherby - 500 Grain FN @ 2700 FPS = 8095 FPE

quote:

Originally posted by Macifej:

quote:

webby with 500gr bullet at 2150fps

Jeff - what's the recipe to get a 500 Grain whatever to slow down to 2150?? Couple spoons of tumbler media over 80 grains Blue Dot??

kingsford charcoal, easy start...

DDUNN,
your question was on calibers, not bullets... what is the difference in performance of XXX maker .458 bullet, 500gr at 2150?

NOTHING... heck, even if you could get a 45/70 to throw it that fast, it would be just as effective

but the 458 win is a cartridge, not a bullet that has left the barrel.

I explained all the things that all the other rounds can do that set of parameters better.

quote:

because he can't read

No but if he could read he'd have to bone up before he got whacked with a 500 Grain bullet at 2700 FPS.

(Insert photo of vaporized Buffalo)

So a 500gr bullet going 2150FPS is good enough?

How slow can I go before I am the guy with the iffy load?
Can I go with a lighter bullet?

If I made the bullet, made the hand-loads, and was taking the shot myself at a Buffalo...I'd be fine. That's just my opinion as a non-hunter and someone who's only seen a Cape Buffalo at the Zoo!!

You can kill just about anything with a big revolver if you're prepared.

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:
So a 500gr bullet going 2150FPS is good enough?

How slow can I go before I am the guy with the iffy load?
Can I go with a lighter bullet?

I don't know how slow that you can go, but I drove a 525 grain flat point hard cast bullet WLFN completely through this bad boy in one side and out the other with only 1100 FPS fired from a 500 Linebaugh revolver and his ass was finnished. He went no where, one shot was all that was required.

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:
So a 500gr bullet going 2150FPS is good enough?

How slow can I go before I am the guy with the iffy load?
Can I go with a lighter bullet?

I don't know how slow that you can go, but I drove a 525 grain flat point hard cast bullet WLFN completely through this bad boy in one side and out the other with only 1100 FPS fired from a 500 Linebaugh revolver and his ass was finnished. He went no where, one shot was all that was required.

Beautiful Bison.
My understanding is that Cape Buff are much harder to kill.

Alrighty...

What difference will it make to the animal if its with a 500 grain .458 caliber, .470 caliber, or .50 caliber - all moving at the mythical 2150 fps?

If you believe that one species with a hole through it's heart is harder to kill than another with a hole through his heart, then I see why the quetion. I simply don't buy that BS and I came by my opion by shooting game. A hole through the vitails is lethal no matter the game, they are not bullet proof. I personaly know of at least 3 Cape Buffalo that were killed with one shot from a 300 win. Put a good bullet in the correct place and they die simple as that.
I have also seen these Bison soak up a lot of lead when the first one is not put in the correct place.

There is a difference between hunting a Buffalo and fighting one and needing a stopping rifle. If the first bullet is located correctly this greatly reduces the need to fight one and as such the PH will not need to use his stopper.

The point is, if I can shoot completely through that 2000 pound Bison and exit with a handgun with a 525 grain hard cast bullet at 1100 FPS, to fret the difference in a 45 cal 500 grain bullet at 2100 FPS or the same bullet at 2300 FPS is spliting a mighty fine frogs hair and a bit ridiculous IMHO

Well having seen animals shot through the vitals with a compound bow, you right dead is dead, but it depends how far you want to walk after you shoot it

IMO a 22 cal slug thru the heart will make a Bison walk away with what it thinks is engina and die 1 mile away of blood loss

The bigger the hole the quicker it will bleed out, especially thru the vitals

Actually if your into the nuts and bolts, I also think there is different reactions between hitting an animal in the heart when the heart is pumped up with valves closed and and hiting it when it's deflated with valves open, as well as hitting it after it takes a breath and before it takes a breath

How many time have you seen animals shot in the same vital spot and react differently

Bottem line theres a lot more to it......

regards
S&F

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
If you believe that one species with a hole through it's heart is harder to kill than another with a hole through his heart,

I believe that it is harder to get to the heart or find the heart on some animals.

I believe that some animals are cantankerously and want to kill you when you shoot them. So you have to break the shoulder.

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:

quote:

Originally posted by jwp475:
If you believe that one species with a hole through it's heart is harder to kill than another with a hole through his heart,

I believe that it is harder to get to the heart or find the heart on some animals.

I believe that some animals are cantankerously and want to kill you when you shoot them. So you have to break the shoulder.

Finding the heart is a matter of studing the anatomy and that does not require killing one first. Look it up on the internet and study it.
If you want to break the shoulder, then use a good bullet and hit the shoulder bone and it will break, remmember correct shot placement is the key.
The bones break in all of them, they are not armor plated.

I own the CZ 550 458 lott and it will shoot the 500gr SP bullet at 2280 fps and the 500gr solid at 2320 FPS. I know the 458 Win can't do that.

ddunn's question certainly wasn't on comparative anatomy, but here we go...

Bison are cotton candy compared to nyati ...
two reasons..
first is readily apparent with you look at carcass or "the perfect shot" .. nyati ribs OVERLAP and aren't exactly thin..

second reason ... nyati andrenal glands are the largest in terms of proportion, than ANY other animal

One hears of slaughters of 100s of bison, merely by tourist getting off the train and shooting them with 45/70s .. there's no talk of the incredible charges at the car, and the bison going mad, laying in wait to kill, and taking a large number of rounds to kill.

perhaps 30,000 years ago, when felix atrox walked north america, the bison had an alpha predator to contend with, perhaps then they were more aggressive .. then again, back then they wer nearly 1.5x the size they are now ..

please don't forget they are nearly the last of the gigafauna...

MEESE kill more people than bison do.

Nyati are satan's cattle, and have to contend with the king of the beasts just to get a drink of water.


Now, someone asked about the difference in a 458, 470, and 500 caliber with 500gr at 2150 ... the 458 and 470, there's nothing really different... the 500 is a huge SD issue...
bullet should be 2150 or more at the muzzle
SD of the bullet should be .300 or higher, UNLESS MONOMETAL (copper or brass) bullet, then SD can be .280, due to bullet construciton
diameter should be at least .375

The pistol linebaugh doesn't make the minimum legal requirements for nyati in most african countries.

So, if all .458 at 2150 fps kill the same, why all the difference?
well, the winmag doesn't always make spec, it's highly compressed, and high pressure.

the lott, at 2300, doesn't answer these questions, but at 2150 or 2200, it certainly does.

and remember, the lott is the smallest "next step" over the .458...

Of the big bores, the .458 has the most case choices, and there must be a reason, no? People who think they know how to make it better, or perceive there is a reason for it to be different, have invested lots of time and money to make a better mousetrap

quote:

Originally posted by ddunn:
So a 500gr bullet going 2150FPS is good enough?

How slow can I go before I am the guy with the iffy load?
Can I go with a lighter bullet?

In my personal experience, using .458" 500gr Woodleigh solids on buff, 2000-2050fps provides excellent performance. I've never used a soft on any buff I've shot, but the performance of Woodleigh 500gr softs on zebra indicates to me that perfomance on buff at that speed would be excellent.

Also in my experience, at 2050fps 500gr Woodleigh solid performance on elephants is sufficient, but I think approaching marginal. Every element of performance, from impact effect to penetration, improves measurably at 2145fps.

So far as bullet weight, I think the 458wm is fine with 500gr bullets and better yet with 450gr bullets. My favorite elephant load is the 450gr North fork at 2190fps. With North Forks gone, I would look to GS Custom. Flat point solids provide tremendous penetration compared to round noses in my experience, but nothing wrong with a 500gr Woodleigh either.

JPK

I was thinking I'd try to use Barnes Banded Solids in my .458 win on elephant in a few years. Anybody got any thoughts?

I don't think this is a major thread hijacking, maybe a minor one. Sorry.

Jeffeosso


Just wondering......how many, each, of cape buff and bison have you personally killed......and with exactly what rifle/cartridge/bullet??????

Do I detect a little goading in this thread? Is there a point to it? Why bother responding further. This thread is useless.-Rob

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
I was thinking I'd try to use Barnes Banded Solids in my .458 win on elephant in a few years. Anybody got any thoughts?

I don't think this is a major thread hijacking, maybe a minor one. Sorry.

I have no personal experience with the Barnes Banded solids but here is a distillation of all that I have read from those who do have personal experience:

The 500gr solid is too long but has proven successful anyway.

The 450gr solid is the better weight for the 458wm and provides excellent performance.

Hope this helps,

JPK

The short answer to the original question is :

nothing.....

Wjile I don't think that you ever need more than a 500gr bullet at 2150 as that combination gives fabulous terminal performance. The advantage some of these other rounds have is not in the terminal performance area rather the at the start.

Many of the larger cases provide less pressure while giving the same terminal performance. That is the only "advantage" that I can see.

I shoot my Lott at about 2150 to 2200 for that reason.

My question is why is 2150fps so sacrosanct ?
I know that was the figures given by the English gunbuilders but, even if it ever was achieved, which I doubt, it was with 28 inch barrels.
The original 404's and the 450-400's had great reputations in Africa and were only claiming a bit over 2000 fps with 400 gr bullets. According to Ross Seyfried, the original Kynoch 450-400 loads he tested were only going 1900fps and sometimes less !
I have tested original 425 WR, 470 Nitro and 505 Gibbs loads and in every case they gave 150-200fps LESS velocity than those claimed. The famed 470 rarely reached 2000fps yet somehow the new 458 loads that now honestly do reach 2100fps - with low pressures - are seen as no good.
Anyone who thinks another 100fps will make a noticeable difference will probably also be voting for Obama.

To address the original question of what X caliber will do that the 458 won't - I guess the answer is little or nothing if the shooter is up to the task.
Mike Lagrange, who has killed literally thousands of elephants on cull is reported to us a pair of 30-06 M-1 garands. He also states in his book that his choice of the big bores is the 458 Win. - it is not the largest or most powerful but is fully capable of stopping any animal in any situation! -
At some point the shooter must be capable of correctly placing the bullet.
No amount of excess velocity or bullet weight will compensated for that.

458Win,

I think the 2150fps number comes from the old "nominal" performance of the 450NE, as you have suggested. All should recall that that was with a 480gr bullet, not a 500gr bullet.

Also, as you mention, not many rifles actually reached nominal performance since most had 26" or even 24" barrels. But I used to have a log of attained performance figures for nitro cartridges from different rifles, unfortunetly lost during a move, and a fair number of 450NE 3 1/4" rifles did reach nominal performance.

But ~2150fps is easy to acheive in the 458wm and produces excellent performance, so why not use it?

As my experience has shown, 500grs at 2050fps is plenty for buff but nearing marginal, imo, for eles. Would I hunt with 500gr Woodleighs at 2100fps? Sure and look forward to it!! But at 2050fps I went looking for more, and easily found it.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by Scott King:
I don't think this is a major thread hijacking, maybe a minor one. Sorry.

As long as we are talking about .458, bullet construction, terminal ballistics, I am ok with it, because I am getting an education.

If I understand it correctly:
Shot placement is crucial.
Bullet construction is crucial.
The 458WM will do what it says in the books, but the other cartridges do it easier, and can go faster.

If you have good shot placement, bullet construction, going faster than 2000fps isn't "NEEDED", but like many things more is better.

Right?

More is only better only if it is handled equally as well by the shooter - and the bullet holds together and maintains a straight course.
Even then there are some highly qualified PH's and cullers who think lower velocity works better.

My only beef with the Lott and the 460 Wby is not that they are ineffective - because they are proven to be great killers - but that very few hunters can shoot them effectively. that is why so many experienced pros choose lesser rounds, especially on large culls, because even for them recoil becomes a factor.
In my experience, which is mirrored by virtually every African PH I have talked to, is that 99% of all hunters are so afraid of their big bores they misplace their shots.

If someone wants to hunt with a 458 Lott or 460 Wby or drive a Dodge Viper to the grocery store simply because it gives them pleasure and impresses their friends then I'm all for it.
Just quit trying to convince everyone that it's necessary and that my beat up 458 Mauser and high milage Toyota can't do the same.

Search big bore forum for .458WM and H335. With 500gr Hornady SN and 77gr of H335, 22in bbl, Win M70 CRF, 6 rnd avg of 2110fps, no signs of excessive pressure, easy extraction.

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Bison are cotton candy compared to nyati ...
two reasons..

Jeff, No offense my friend but I sure don't agree with you. I admit that I don't think that bison are "as aggressive" as a cape buffalo but they are every bit as big if not bigger than their african cousin and I think JWP475's point is well taken. I have personally seen big bull bison that were much larger than any cape buffalo ever hoped to be and it is completly legitmate to draw conclusions on the efficacy of a cartridge on a cape buffalo by evaulating its' perfomance on a bison.

Dave

What will your bigger and faster cartridge do that the 458WM will not do?

short answer to original question.

Nothing!!!!

Don't worry be happy go hunting shoot straight know your anatomy and all will be well

quote:

Originally posted by Dave Bush:

quote:

Originally posted by jeffeosso:

Bison are cotton candy compared to nyati ...
two reasons..

Jeff, No offense my friend but I sure don't agree with you. I admit that I don't think that bison are "as aggressive" as a cape buffalo but they are every bit as big if not bigger than their african cousin and I think JWP475's point is well taken. I have personally seen big bull bison that were much larger than any cape buffalo ever hoped to be and it is completly legitmate to draw conclusions on the efficacy of a cartridge on a cape buffalo by evaulating its' perfomance on a bison.

Dave

I'm not sure that I agree with this 100%. Some species die easier, some don't.

Cape buffalo are notoriuously tough and don't die easy, even with what will prove relatively quickly fatal hits.

Generally, if one species is tenaciuos of life and dies 50yds further than another it isn't any issue, but that does not hold true for aggressive dangerous game.

Two examples of dangerous game that die differently with similar shots are elephant and cape buffalo. The difference seems especially noteable because of the vast size difference. I'll put my money on the buff to expire last given two heart shot animals. And don't forget that an elephant heart is a whole lot larger than a buff heart and so damage to the buff heart is relatively more as a percentage, by a factor of four or five based on the size difference.

JPK

Dave,

I know large bison Bison can weigh more than Cape Buffalo. Largest maximum size estimates I can find are 2500 lbs versus 2200 lbs.

A couple of hundred pounds doesn't matter diddly ... Bison are much more mild mannered and MUCH easier to kill.

My own experience with a .416 Rigby and 350 gr Barnes X bullets at 2700 fps ... Bison required 1 shot at 80 yards. Bolted on impact but was down and dead within 30 yards and a few seconds. Buff hit at 25 yards required 3 more over the next 10 minutes and covered hundreds of yards. One very tough SOB. I believe this is not unrepresentative of the two species. (All but one round on the Cape Buffalo were complete pass throughs resulting is huge damage.)

I strongly suspect that in terms of toughness the average Asian Water Buffalo is much closer to the average Cape Buffalo than is the average Bison.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
More is only better only if it is handled equally as well by the shooter - and the bullet holds together and maintains a straight course.
Even then there are some highly qualified PH's and cullers who think lower velocity works better.

458wm,

Yes, it is always true that more rifle - or more velocity from the same rifle - is only useful if it remains equally well applied. One reason I think the 458wm is just fine is that it remains easily shootable at 2150fps (albeit with the neccesity of learning to live with the recoil) and 2150fps provides consistently excellent performance with quality 500gr solids. BTW, I find no significant, even noticable, increase in recoil from 2050fps to 2150fps with 500 grainers. Physics tells us it must be there but I can't tell a difference even one to the other back to back.

On to a topic that shouldn't involve perceptions:

500gr Woodleigh solids at 2050fps = 32" of penetration in elephant heads on front on shots.

500gr Woodleigh solids at 2145fps = 39" of penetration in elephant heads on front on shots.

Sample size is small at maybe 15 bullets total, ~ five at 2145fps, ten at 2050fps velocity so don't bank on 32" of penetration at 2050fps! 32" of penetration in elephant heads for a frontal brain shot is approaching marginal in my opinion.

I'm not alone advocating 2150fps. Take Richard Harland for example. He killed quite a number of elephants, the great majority with the 458wm and of those, most shooting ammo that chronographed 2050-2100fps according to one of his books, but advocates ~2150fps now.

While I am nowhere near sure of this and don't have the sample sizes to come close to any firm conclusion, there seems to be a non-linear increase in penetration of round nose 500gr solids once velocity is beyond ~2000-2050fps.

As an aside, using flat point monos in 450grs, pushed at 2190fps, increases penetration remarkably, nearing 30-40% over the 2050fps 500gr loads in my tests. Again sample size is small at maybe ten 450gr flat nose monos, North Forks in particular.

JPK

Edit: 458wm, take elephants out of the equation, and I think that I am 100% in agreement with what you seem to be saying. Cape buff at 2050fps? No issues, excellent performance, nothing more required. But 2100 or 2150fps are easy to acheive, significantly increase the performance on elephants and don't recoil much or noticeably more.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
If someone wants to hunt with a 458 Lott or 460 Wby or drive a Dodge Viper to the grocery store simply because it gives them pleasure and impresses their friends then I'm all for it.
Just quit trying to convince everyone that it's necessary and that my beat up 458 Mauser and high milage Toyota can't do the same.

I agree and on the other side of the coin I bought a Lott to shoot 2150-2200MV safely. If I wanted 1900-2000 safely I would have bought a Win Mag. It seems were always trying to make a 308 equal to a 30-06 equal to a 300 mag etc etc. We could probably find somebody loading Lott rounds to 460 Weatherby velocities and claims it is safe. Figure out what you want and buy the round that was safely intended to do the chore. Plus it gives us excuses to buy more guns. Within their ranges they are all great cartridges.

BTW I have not heard of anybody being attacked or killed by bison lately. There is a reason for the 375 minimum for cape buffalo.

No Killer Bison in New Iberia??