quote:

Originally posted by Atkinson:
I am not a .458 fan because it ticked me off that Winchester used such a small case,

Mr. Atkinson. They only did it to annoy you.

quote:

then you get compaction and historically run into problems.

Ray Sir, I read all your posts and don't think I've jumped to conclusions, but it seems you have a slight hang-up on compaction. Sure it may have been a problem with OLD, OLD ammo, and aparently some PH's hoard stuff older than themselves.

BUT, with modern powders, and a lot of them being "stick" types, judicial reloading with the swerl, tap, vibrate, drop-tube, and curse method, not much compression is needed. And these days a lot of reloaders compress constantly without a second thought.

Also you've mentioned a 458WM case needing to be 100 and something percent, but who decides that? Did "they" try and settle the powder?

I don't know who that character is that says you don't know what your talking about. Your just a bit "crusty" is all.

Gentlemen

There is no easy way to say this so read this example, swap the example over for the 458's and you'll get a better picture


Two brothers own big 5 ton SUV's

The youngest Brother has brought the 6 cylinder model, the older brother owns the V8 model

The youngest brother with the 6 cylinder model is constantly asking why his older brother would need the V8,
"you can only do 55 miles per hour on the open road and my 6 cylinder can handle that no worries", what can your V8 do that my 6 cylinder can't ?"

Then one day the youngest brother loads up his 5 ton SUV, hitches up a 15 ton trailer and does a bit of touring through the Mountains, his 6 cylinder is screaming it's head off the whole trip especially on the hill climbs, with all the extra weight of the trailer, the 6 cylinder is working harder than it should the whole trip, infact truth is he is really lucky he doesnt blow it up, but it gets through the trip .....this time,..... because it's a well built motor.

He gets home from his big trip and brags to his older brother with the V8,... "see I told you the 6 cylinder can handle anything the V8 can....I pulled that 15 ton trailer up and down those mountains no worries, the motor handled it well, even though the books and the sales man told me I shouldn't put the motor under such stress

So you still haven't told me why you need that fuel guzzling V8 when my 6 cylinder worked fine on that long trip in the mountains

The older brother with the V8 just sits back, smiles and relaxes, he really doesn't need to answer, he has nothing to prove, knowing that his lazy big V8 could move that 5 ton SUV and 15 ton trailer up and down those mountains without staining. He knows his V8, can do everything his younger brothers 6 cylinder can do and much more, and do it easier with very little stress or effort

Infact chances are his V8 SUV will still be going strong LONG after his younger brothers overworked 6 cylinder needs major rework or has been sent to the Junk yard


So I think if your happy to cruze on the open road in your 5 ton SUV at 55 mph then the 6 cylinder is sufficient, however, if you plan on pulling heavy loads and doing a lot of hard driving in your SUV a lazy V8 is the way to go, with power to spare



I hope this example comes close to answering it


regards S&F

Me feels the Winnie is not so good because it does not kick as hard. I remembers Italos motto: 'If it doesn't kick it doesn't work'.

quote:

I suspect a 400-grain Woodleigh would turn inside-out at 2400 fps.

Pictured left to right; 400 grain Barnes X, 400 grain NF, original 400 grain TBBC, 400 Woody.

2,700 fps.

The middle two will handle anything. The other two for PG only?

Andy

quote:

Originally posted by Andy:

quote:

I suspect a 400-grain Woodleigh would turn inside-out at 2400 fps.

Pictured left to right; 400 grain Barnes X, 400 grain NF, original 400 grain TBBC, 400 Woody.

2,700 fps.

The middle two will handle anything. The other two for PG only?

Andy

Too many initials for me.
NF?
TBBC?
PG?
Thanks

Translation:

NF = North Fork, unfortunately out of business for now.

TBBC = Trophy Bonded Bear Claws, avaialble in some Federal Factory ammo. Andy tested an old version prior to Federal purchasing Trophy Bonded. Some feel the originals are better, I find the new ones great as well.

PG = Plains game, which is African hunting slang for anything but dangerous game, whether it is found on the plains, in the bush, up in kopjies or on mountains.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by ShortandFat:
Gentlemen

I hope this example comes close to answering it


regards S&F

Are you on the same planet?

JAL

Your right I had to readit to myself a few times to make sure I said it right, but this was the easiest example I thought I could use to explain it.

Like I said if you substitute the SUV's for 458's the smaller 6 cylinder being a 458Win Mag and the big V8 being a 458 Lott, AR or Weatherby, it all comes together

Why Redline a 458 Win Mag when you can loaf around just above idle with the bigger 458's

regards
S&F

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
My opinion differs from Ray's in that I like the standard 458 precisely BECAUSE it is on a short case.
The reason for the 458's problems have been linked simply to powder deterioration due to heat and compaction. With fresh ammo, especially with today's newer powders, it does everything it was supposed to do and it does it from a quick to operate, short case.

Phil I would be curious to know what advantage you get from the shorter case? Can you really cycle the action that much faster with a .458Win vs a .458 Lott?
A lot of people will cite advantages such as shorter actions, less rifle weight etc, which I always figure is just theoretical BS to justify their cartridge choice, as if 4-6 ozs would make a difference to a physically fit individual.

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win: Andy, there is nothing wrong with your logic but I went the other way and loaded 400 gr Swifts, North Fork and Kodiaks to 2300fps. They work great on everything on this side of the pond.

Phil that makes perfect sense and I totally understand that argument. If that is the incentive to the shorter case, then I think I get it.

I read your article in Rifle Magazine about a year ago on the .458Win. It was a good read.

I have a CZ-550, which was originally chambered in .458Win. It had terrible feeding problems. I had read that the Lott conversion was a simple remedy to improve feeding in the huge Brno action, plus I liked the logic behind the Lott cartridge, so I had mine re-chambered to Lott.
I never did Chrony any of those factory .458Win loads (510gr softs) I shot before I had that rifle modified.

With my Lott though, I get an easy 2235 fps MV, with 500gr Hornady softs. When I was developing my loads, I pushed it up to about 2350fps, but could not see any logic in that type of velocity and reduced the powder charge until I found that 2235 fps load that I now use.
I do not have my data handy so I cannot provide specifics.

I don't think there is much difference in recoil between the .458Win and .458 Lott, I know there is a bit more with the Lott.

As to the effectiveness of the .458Win, I read Ron Thomson's book, Mahoboh. He used a .458Win exclusively on Ele's in control work for years and it was his favorite cartridge.

My 458 Lott pushes the 500 Solid at 2320 FPS and the 500 SP at 2280.

Demonical, There is no denying that the 458 Lott offers more velocity than the standard Win, just as the 460 Wby offers more than the Lott. The question is how much do you really need.
Pretty much the general consensus for the past 100 years has been that a 480 or 500 gr bullet at around 2100fps is plenty. The standard 458 was designed to do that - and does. If someone decides more velocity works better for them then they are certainly free to use as much as they want. If they really believe what they say, that more velocity is better, I wonder why they don't just buy a 460Wby and be done with it?

As for shorter cases making a rifle faster to operate. It wouldn't seem like three tenths of and inch would make any significant difference. And at the range it doesn't. But put someone under stress with a timer and things change. Put them under life-threatening stress - where time seems to compress - and a short bolt throw definitely becomes an asset.
For those of you who liked the big bore engine analogy -just compare it to a NASCAR driver with slightly quicker reflexes or a boxer who is just minutely faster than his opponent and who gets his punches off a nanosecond quicker. It may not look like much when you measure the difference with a clock but it counts in the real world.

JPK, Thanks!

Andy

Phil thanks for the reply. I take it you apply the same logic to any of the Short Mags or the the new Ruger cartridges to endorse those.

My .458 Lott load is 75.5grs H-335 for 2235fps MV.

I am not "endorsing" any cartridge and was simply discussing the 458 Win and Lott debate. Sometimes practical field experience exposes concepts not obvious to casual users.

I suppose if one was to use the short mags for dangerous game or some other sport that required the absolute fastest bolt operations then they might work better in that aspect. WDM "Karamojo" Bell certainly was a believer in the shorter cartridges as well. Which tells me he probably had more than a few close calls. He stated on later in his life that he thought the 308 Win might have become his favorite if it had been available at the time.
Years ago one of the reasons the US military chose the 308 over the 30-06 was because it's short length offered better results in semi (and full) automatic rifles.

Phil, yes well, I didn't mean to suggest that you receive money tp promote a particular cartridge. I merely meant that by lending your name to any particular cartridge in articles, as in Rifle Magazine, is a form of endorsement, since you have attained pretty significant status among the folks that write about such stuff; your name carries some weight.

FWIW my favorite of all calibers would be the .338WM, followed by the .30-06.
In medium to heavies they would be the .416Rem and .458 Lott, not that I have experience with many others, but I see none that do it any better then those two. And I have read about everything there is and pretty much am familiar with the merits/ballistics of any of the others.

Little thread hi-jack there, sorry about that...

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
Pretty much the general consensus for the past 100 years has been that a 480 or 500 gr bullet at around 2100fps is plenty. The standard 458 was designed to do that - and does. If someone decides more velocity works better for them then they are certainly free to use as much as they want. If they really believe what they say, that more velocity is better, I wonder why they don't just buy a 460Wby and be done with it?

500grs at 2100fps will do the job but more velocity is definitely better. Why not just take the leap to the 460WBY or Rigby, etc? Because the 458wm offers enough performance and is easily shootable.

The 460WBY, Rigby, etc don't offer enough difference in results to make up for the beating.

The Lott is fine, but if your limiting yourself to 500grs at 2150fps or so, why bother (if you already have a 458wm) when that is so easily acheived in the 458wm. The best justification for the Lott is 550gr bullets at 2100 to 2150fps.

So, past maybe 2250fps or so with the 500's you ought to be looking to a bigger bullet for the recoil rather than more velocity. While the fast 458 round give the 500gr or 550gr bullets enough and more velocity, there is still no goos reason beyond the Lott since it will push a 550 at 2150fps. Instead, look to the 500's; 500NE, Gibbs, Jeffery... More diameter, bullet weight... The next step up.

I don't buy the shorter cartridge arguement, my second African rifle is a 375H&H and it jusy isn't an issue. Besides, when the heat is on, the bolt stop is the thing keeping the bolt in the rifle, not a weak and wimpy shuck.

JPK

quote:

Originally posted by 458Win:
WDM "Karamojo" Bell certainly was a believer in the shorter cartridges as well.

Phil,
My understanding is that this was a result of his shooting style. I think he removed the butt from his shoulder as he pulled forward with the left hand, whilst also manipulating the bolt rearwards ... he had an unconventional style anyway which suited shorter bolt-throws.

Whether 7x57 or 458WM ... you can't argue with success, your experiences, Finn Aaggard's etc... shows that the 458WM is a competent cartridge when applied well. Sanchez-Arino reports it as inadequate infront of the bulls (elephant). I think everyone needs to remember that prejudices for and against exist ... Taylor for example seems to have distrusted anything non-British even when it came to perfectly adequate calibres like the 500Jeffery ... with a stiff upper lip it was British (Jeffery) rifles and their ammunition only.
Cheers...
Con

quote:

Originally posted by ShortandFat:
JAL

Your right

Well there's a first.

quote:

Why Redline a 458 Win Mag when you can loaf around just above idle with the bigger 458's

regards
S&F

That's just what I mean. It may make sense in the heat of Africa, but every man and his dog, well, 90% of reloaders WANT and DO go for the MAX their cart. can do or they feel they're not getting their moneys worth.

For what its worth , my Ruger M77mk2 rsp 458 win mag is faster on follow up shots than my CZ 550 Saf.Mag. in 416 Rem mag or my 458 Lott CZ . With a 400 gr bullet such as the Kodiak Bonded Core pushed by 79 gr AA 2230 and a 215 primer mine averages 2380 fps and is 2 gr or more below max working load . .. Tho my ruger is one of the slickest actions there is , my CZ,s are slick as well ...Other than Elephant I can,t think of anything I would be afraid to use that load on ..

Naw, but they have some killer pepper sauce...

From this entire 'how-many-fairies-can-dance-on-the-head-of-a-pin' thread I will take one nugget....

"Much like the 300 savage.. nothing WRONG with it, but it will never be a 30-06"


Thanks Jeffeosso!!!!!

Agree Mike, If I rebarrel my 375 H&H to 470 Capstick, I was thinking a 500 Swift A-Frame at 470 NE velocity (2150 fps) should be a nice low pressure/ low recoil load that should be plenty for buffalo out of a 24" barrel. Recoil should be about 50% more than my 375 H&H which should be easily manageable

Chuck

Gumboot,

I am glad to see someone using the excellent Kodiak .458's.

They are one of the best kept secrets in the hunting world.

Andy

Not to get off topic here but I've got a question and this looks like a good spot to ask. I've had a couple of 458s and always shot 500s for full power loads and 350s for plinking. Everyone claims 2400 fps with 400 gr. .416s with their Taylors, shouldn't a 458 go as fast or faster with 400s?

MTM,
In theory, yes the 458WM should go faster with a 400gr. There's much speculation however whether 400gr at 2400fps from the Taylor is 'too hot'. Seems around 2320fps is often a more realistic top end value, although individual rifles will vary. Simply the joys of a non-standardised wildcat.
Cheers...
Con

Look- Go shoot a simple water bottle with a HOT LOADED .458 win Mag, then shoot one with a .600OK. Watch carefully, Pay Attention, FOCUS! Now do the same with a Deer, elk Buff, whatever. Results should be similar and impressive! Then you might begin to understand. Be honest and ask yourself which of these would you really rather have in your hand if things go wrong and they sometimes do on a DG hunt. Pse don't give me the I can't shoot a big bore because I'll flinch argument either as I don't buy it. Till then its a waste of time. Like the Harley people say" if I have to explain it to you, you'll never understand". Yes, there are cartridges that can do alot more than a .458 win mag. and are actually better suited for todays DG hunting. I have nothing really against the ,458win mag, but on six saffaris, I've never been motivated in the least to carry one( I own 2) when there are so many better choices around. This is beginning to sound like the politicians line of why do you need anything over .50 caliber. Its really not necessary. Good thinking there -for sure.-Rob

Rob,

You pass over two important issues and understate another.

1.) First is gun weight, nothing different there between the Lott or 458wm but it begins to be an issue with 500's and up - and drop to number 3 for more on this.

2.) No matter how anyone tries to redefine stopping rifle performance, it has been tested, tried and proven to include ballistics "inferior" or perhaps better explained as "not as powerful" as the 458wm loaded to reasonable but below max levels. Where stopping rifle balistics begin, as proven for over 100 years is with 480 grains of bullet at ~2100fps, the in field performance of the tried and true 450NE.

There is no doubt at all, and no one contends that there is, that the Lott or Rigby or the 500NE, 600NE, 600OK and on and on provide more powerful ballistics than the 458wm, or the 450NE for that matter. But the 450NE is a long, long proven performer, and the 458wm provides more powerful ballistics, if marginally more. So under any circumstance, despite its legion of nay sayers, the 458wm is enough gun so long as it is loaded to reasonble levels, easily acheivable with today's powders.

3.) Recoil is real. Recoil is a function of gun weight, amoungst other factors. More performance means more recoil from the same weight rifle. While viewpoints vary and the definition of too heavy a rifle to hump all day varies as well, carrying a too heavy rifle sucks and can wear a hunter down, especially over a long trip and especially elephant hunting, where long distance and duration walking is common.

On the other side of the coin, recoil sucks too and too much can be an impediment in the field.

At least a certain amount must be tolerated to shoot a cartridge with performance proven adequate for over 100yrs packaged in a rifle which can be readily carried for miles and miles over hours and hours and days and days.

For me, a rifle that weighs over 10 1/2lbs is unappealing, no matter what the recoil, no matter what the performance. I would prefer 10lbs and perhaps 9 1/2 but then performance must step down for the recoil to remain tolerable (to me this means tolerable for practice, even if uncomfortable, and just sufficient recoil with DG in my sights to let me know the rifle has fired, no significant muzzle rise or displacement.)

To make recoil tolerable for me, performance out of a 10 1/2lbs rifle can't much exceed the 450 Lott to 500NE realm. At 10lbs, yes the Lott, but certainly the 458wm. At 9 1/2lbs only the 458wm remains. And what a fine choice! Performance level proven for over a century in a package of reasonable weight.

Other's recoil tolerance may be defined diferently, or be higher or lower than mine under a similar definition, but my tolerance is my tolerance, defined as I define it.

So, is a 600OK better, no, not in my book. Surely it is more powerful, but not better with all factors considered. But I do advocate the 458 Lott for the new rifle buyer. On the other hand, I also advocate leaving a nice 458wm alone and not altering it, since it will provide better than the ballistics proven sifficient under all circumstances for more than 100 years, and a bit more, in a package that is sufficiently light for all day every day carrying.

JPK

Rob,have you taken any game with that puny 458 Win? Did they not want to sucumb with that 45 cal hole through them?

3 pages of excuses as to why the winmag isn't as good as the lott. My first post on the subject answered the question.

quote:

Originally posted by Robgunbuilder:
This is beginning to sound like the politicians line of why do you need anything over .50 caliber. Its really not necessary. Good thinking there -for sure.-Rob

Actually this is just like the political gun control argument. And here is my reply when politicians try to legislate gun control against Assult rifles, big bore rifles.....

I might not need my X, but people don't need fast cars on the highway either. I mean you are only legally able to drive them 65MPH or even 75MPH in some places. Why do you "need" a car that can go 120MPH in 4th gear? They don't, but it makes them happy to have a car that they can drive much faster.

Will someone please give us a (rough) count again on all the (say) elephants dropped with the .458WM.

I realise all hit with the Lott dropped immediately, and stayed down.

And while your at it, same with PF's success against the failures to function of (all) CRF's.

Again I realise no CRF has failed (or so some would have it.)

I see 3 pages of praise for the .458, except from thems that can't/won't see the forrest because of the trees.

A good allrounder for 200 yards and under.